Public Headmin Discussion

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:31 pm #17683

Bottom post of the previous page:

Not all of us will be able to participate in the teamspeak discussion. Will there be a recording?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:53 am #17705

Isane wrote:Wait wait wait. So basically Paprika and a few others started crying so hard about a playerbase vote, that they actually managed to convince themselves and others that there actually was a playerbase vote going on, despite there not being one?

Like, those wall of texts Paprika typed up, complaining about "this current vote" and such, are all basically moot, and complaining for the sake of complaining?

Nah, everyone here is deluded or uninformed.

I said it once and I'll say it again.

Scaredy quite literally said he was going to run a public, PLAYER BASE VOTE on the community meeting last sunday.

I even told you this was the case.

Yet you're saying this is not an issue and I'm making it up.

Jesus christ. Ask anyone that was there in the IRC and they'll tell you that's what Scaredy was planning on. The same thing as last year.

I'm actually getting tired of this amount of stupidity.

YES, the current player poll on the server wasn't scaredy's idea, someone else threw that up or something.

YES, scaredy STILL PLANS on doing a playerbase vote. He even said he was going to ask for players to send him votes via AHELP.

READ THE IRC LOGS. STAY INFORMED. STOP MAKING YOURSELVES LOOK LIKE JACKASSES AND HAVING ME WASTE MY TIME.

bandit wrote:Bullshit. Please provide proof that 90% of the playerbase is this terrible, instead of using it as a buzzword to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. If you really hold that much contempt for 90% of the playerbase, I'm surprised you can even stomach to play here. I'm sure you think you're naturally part of the 10%, too.

BUT I AM PART OF THAT 10%. I'M HERE, SO ARE YOU. THE LARGE PART OF THE PLAYER BASE IS NOT AND THEY'RE JUST ON THE SERVER TO PLAY THE GAME. This is just how it is, denying that makes -you- look like a fucking asshole.

The problem with that lies in the fact that these same people who rarely go to the forums outside of FNR are going to be the ones voting in the player poll too. They're uninformed and are just going to vote for who they like the best. Why they like them is completely irrelevant 90% of the time because they're not involved in admin politics, this thread, or anything like that. They will literally just not vote for someone because they handled a ban wrong or something once. That's not who we want picking a few people that will handle admin-based decisions that won't really necessarily impact the playerbase in a HUGE HUGE way anyway.

I DON'T hold the playerbase in any sort of contempt. That's where you're wrong. I'm saying that they lack the knowledge to make an informed vote in this case and that's not calling them dumb or stupid, I'm saying that it's a wasted vote and you know it. The people who are informed will be VASTLY overshadowed by these people. Maybe it's not huge, maybe we don't have a 10,000 pop player base, but it's significant enough to shit up the poll and ruin the headmin process entirely.

Nobody will respect headmins that aren't chosen fairly, by people who are informed. Even if erro was chosen by the adminbus legitimately I would have literally no choice but to take him seriously. If admins want erro leading them and making decisions or whoever the fuck, that's what they want and there's obviously a reason for that. This is hypothetical of course, but that's why it matters for admins to choose the headmins and not players. Not only will the headmin elections be more signficant and the votes hold a TON more weight, but it'll help boost the headmins to know that the other ADMINS wanted them there.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:16 am #17711

Righto, my mistake then. So basically everyone is getting mad as hell over video games. Go yell at Scaredy then about not having any sort of vote maybe instead of doing it in this thread?

Anyway, let's drop this shit about votes, how the vote is going to be done, forcing random names on, etc. And actually talk about the candidates. Seriously, the candidates, lets discuss them please.

Can we just have Antonkr, Pandar, and Neerti as headmins and call it a day? Between them they know the game, know how to see things like a player, know the code, and aren't huge jerks and are quite level headed in all my dealings with them. Maybe Ikkarus too, though I haven't seen enough to form an opinion of him. Deuryn spent most of his time as headmin not even around, HG is an abrasive jerk, Elyina I believe abused their admin powers to ban evade in the past, and who the fuck is Fateweaver again?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:29 am #17714

Anton is AWOL but once he gets back he's already really excited about wanting to be involved here.

I don't really care what any of these candidates have done in the past. Sure, it shows initiative for change and that they're willing to do it (pandar really convinced me about silicon hulk human policy needing to be a thing that was written down) but it doesn't matter if they're not going to make positive changes for the administration and be at least semi-neutral when it comes down to making harder decisions, which there will be a lot of.

Anton, neerti, and pandar all like each other. They've all been on both servers. They're willing to cooperate even if they disagree.

Tomorrow I'm going to ask what they're willing to bring to the table. I really, really want some harder decisions towards administrating etiquette to be made with actual consequences. If all the admins sort of operated under the same standards (which they sort of do right now) to a larger extent, they'd ALL be accountable for change and contribute positively towards making those changes if the current operating procedure shows serious fault with not only their effectiveness in banning shitlords but actually being received positively by players. NOBODY wants people to dicksuck and get yelled at if they don't follow a script when responding to ahelps like indian tech support people, but there needs to be something to fall back on if the admin in question is tired or can't be fucked or biased towards a player or what have you. There needs to be a common procedure that's a lot more cemented than what currently happens and that's what I want to see the admins decide on first and foremost. I don't want 'do this or get deadminned' .pdfs but it'd be kind of nice if ahelping wasn't a mixed bag I guess. I don't know, this is my speculation on how administrating goes because it seems kind of like everyone has their own way of doing it which might work for them but it's detrimental the more I see it conflict with actual ahelps. I'm not speaking from any personal experience with ahelps but I've certainly seen it in FNR.

Maybe instead of running individually headmins should run as a group of three. Like a political party.

We politics now!

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:37 am #17717

If you have a problem with uninformed voters, let me introduce you to something called literally every political process involving votes in the world. The problem is that the alternatives aren't any better and are often worse. (Insert US-based bitching about half the the Supreme Court being appointed by Republicans which is fucking up everything.) Admins can be uninformed too -- Neerti mentioning that half the admins don't know there are multiple metafriend gangs is a great example. Or I hate to keep picking on Bluespace, especially since he's on vacation, but the Dawn of Man thing is an excellent example of a case where player input could have headed off something bad before the admin(s) went ahead with it anyway. Admins are also just as guilty of voting based on factionalism or politics or who trialminned them or who they think is most likely to do them a solid in the future as players were. They don't magically become different people once they become admins and not "the playerbase."

Also: Is there a reason we have to have three trialmins? Anton, Ikarrus, Neerti and Pandarsenic are all qualified as far as I'm concerned (I was less sure about Neerti but his posts here are solid).

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:40 am #17719

I'm not insisting anyone is making Scaredy's plans up. As I said in the start of this thread, the form they'll take isn't really up for debate by us and most people's opinions have been made clear regarding how public votes aren't a good thing. There's no vote running right this second. The opening post states this was about the candidates rather than the form because I feel SoS has the end say in that. Please don't confuse a lack of desire to discuss it, off topic for the thread, with delusion or some kind of support for the flawed process. Try as I might to prevent last thread's discussion from bleeding into this one...

Praying the teamspeak tomorrow salvages some worth from asking candidates questions as it's unlikely we'll hear much more from them here.

Glad we're finally on-topic, at least.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:48 am #17721

What do metafriend gangs on a server some admins never touch have to do with them choosing headmins again? If I was a primarily sybil-based admin I'd think the same thing about artyom or server 2, there's plenty of evidence for that to be the case even if it's wrong. 'The roaming metafriend gang clique that gives each other all access'. But it has nothing to do with admins choosing headmins, it's a very minor issue in the grand scheme of administration even if it is an issue that will pop up and need to be addressed down the line.

Subtle wrote:As I said in the start of this thread, the form they'll take isn't really up for debate by us and most people's opinions have been made clear regarding how public votes aren't a good thing.

The form the headmin votes will take is totally up to discussion by us. This is what I'm trying to get across here. Stop thinking scaredy is some benevolent being who wants things this way or that. He wants to know what you have to think. If you have a better idea, he wants to hear it. But he's a busy man, so I understand why you get that impression, but the evidence for him wanting people's feedback on these processes is right in front of you. It's always been there. Nobody but me has taken the time to speak up and that's a fucking shame. You say everyone knows how bad the elections were and how detrimental they were to how headmins operated following them, but then I see posts from people saying player votes are the best way to go about it and there's no better alternative. This is why I'm upset, not only because you're deciding to once again discuss meta gangs on artyom and shit people generally don't even know what they're talking about.

This is why I've been a big asshole about it. If people don't speak the fuck up and express their desire for change, it won't happen. It didn't happen before, even though people I personally respected didn't want public votes either. It's not that you might support the player votes, it's that you're apathetic and willing to let other shit take precedence when things like this really need to be discussed and agreed upon before candidates are talked about. It'd be nice if it was agreed upon that we have a new system for voting so those admins that usually tune this shit out can snap back into reality and realize their vote will actually matter this time and they don't have to just sit there and be like 'oh well new headmins what else is new'

Post by **oranges** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:55 am #17732

If I recall correctly Scaredy never said the poll would decide the headmins, merely that he is running one.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:28 am #17736

paprika wrote:You say everyone knows how bad the elections were and how detrimental they were to how headmins operated following them

I'm still waiting for proof about how literally anything about the player's vote caused HBL and Intigracy to stop talking to each other and Deuryn to fuck off. (I don't actually have a problem with any of them, I'm just being blunt.)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:35 am #17737

oranges wrote:If I recall correctly Scaredy never said the poll would decide the headmins, merely that he is running one.

I asked 'how will headmins be decided' and he responded 'i will run a public poll'

bandit wrote:
paprika wrote:You say everyone knows how bad the elections were and how detrimental they were to how headmins operated following them
I'm still waiting for proof about how literally anything about the player's vote caused HBL and Intigracy to stop talking to each other and Deuryn to fuck off. (I don't actually have a problem with any of them, I'm just being blunt.)

I don't even pretend to know what the thought process of admins in the bus were at the time but I hardly think there was roaring support for HBL, a newcomer admin who really only won because of extreme (deserved) popularity among the players.
As for intig and deuryn, I can't really comment there. Them being headmins was the result of a playerbase poll, so that's what to blame if they ended up shitting the bed.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:05 am #17743

I don't even pretend to know what the thought process of admins in the bus were at the time but I hardly think there was roaring support for HBL, a newcomer admin who really only won because of extreme (deserved) popularity among the players.
As for intig and deuryn, I can't really comment there. Them being headmins was the result of a playerbase poll, so that's what to blame if they ended up shitting the bed.

No, they're to blame if they ended up shitting the bed. There's no real way to tell how any given three players will interact in positions of power without actually putting them there, so blaming the election is stupid. The players did not force them to do anything by the act of electing them. Are you seriously putting all the blame for admins' actions on the playerbase?

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:20 am #17744

paprika wrote:Them being headmins was the result of a playerbase poll, so that's what to blame if they ended up shitting the bed.

Yeah, not sure at all how you're blaming the players for Intigracy and HBL deciding to be assholes to each other, and Deuryn to not even be around most of the time.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:15 am #17747

You people voted in someone who literally said it was a mad grab for power. They just wanted the power. Or how they shouldn't let "sybil boss them around any more." With the whole badger stronk bullshit. And they promised wild things to those that voted for him like pulse guns and shit. Literally bribing players.

And you people fucking fear getting bwoinked from me a "Big meanie authoritarian admin who always take the admins side" when someone like me wants nothing to do with the headmin position.

Also, daily reminder you people almost voted nexendia in as a community advocate.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:38 am #17752

Brotemis makes an excellent point for why the player's input should be a greenlight or a stamp of approval and nothing more.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:01 am #17753

Nexendia had to have rigged the poll actually because outside of mass-joke polling he was universally hated on server 2

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:43 am #17772

No offense but Neerti doesn't really know the code. He's a decent coder and probably has the potential (I don't get to decide those things though, just a personal opinion) to become a tg maintainer if he wants to and tries, but he's far from there yet. (Also, he mostly codes for nt which sort of reduced his maintainership chances :V)

HG isn't really an abrasive jerk either. He's done many controversial things, but most of his being an abrasive jerk was jokingly AFAIK. He does want to change shit and would, imho, make a fairly good leader. Unless all the admins hate him or something, I have no idea of the intra-adminbus politics.

420goslingboy69 · Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:55 am

no fucking shit the community is stupid. on the "try out a new lawset on artyom" poll, like 33% of the votes went to the bay lawset. fuck thats dumb

captain sawrge · Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:55 pm

Brotemis wrote:Also, daily reminder you people almost voted nexendia in as a community advocate.

Daily reminder Skorvold was almost deadminned during his trialmin vote specifically for saying not-nice things to certain admins in admin feedback threads.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:26 pm #17836

And that's why other admins didn't call out the people mentioned in his feedback for their bullshit as well.

Oh wait. They did. Beside the point, what you're tryjng n to point out has literally no bearing on headmin elections

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:28 pm #17837

Daily reminder that "daily reminders" are a meaningless trope and the epitome of shitposting.

Miauw wrote:No offense but Neerti doesn't really know the code. He's a decent coder and probably has the potential (I don't get to decide those things though, just a personal opinion) to become a tg maintainer if he wants to and tries, but he's far from there yet. (Also, he mostly codes for nt which sort of reduced his maintainership chances :V)

Glad to hear from someone with a code-oriented viewpoint. At the same time though if code-knowledge is one of your requirements there aren't many candidates to choose from. As you said Neerti is making a genuine effort to understand the game from that perspective and I feel it's a positive, almost necessary, quality for a Headmin to have. Especially considering the historic precedent for unnecessary drama between Admins/Coders.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:33 pm #17840

Hornygranny and Ikarrus are both established coders who know what they're doing. Which is important because some code dictates policy stances. (See IED'S and their subsequent change because of how they were being used)

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:09 pm #17847

Subtle wrote:Daily reminder that "daily reminders" are a meaningless trope and the epitome of shitposting.

But sawrge has a good point.
The fact that the majority of people don't know about the blatant misuse of authority to get rid of someone because he said meaningful constructive criticism is absolutely atrocious.
Just because it's hurtful doesn't mean it's not true.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:13 pm #17850

Clearly the only solution is to nuke the community from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:18 pm #17852

Just have SoS pick three people then. Why even argue about it?

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:22 pm #17853

Yeah well you guys are terrible. You cannot even pick a way to pick a headmin.

Why don't we pick a way to pick a way to pick a headmin. What about a public vote?

Oh and next time add "Not interested" option in a public vote.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:25 pm #17854

ColonicAcid wrote:But sawrge has a good point.
The fact that the majority of people don't know about the blatant misuse of authority to get rid of someone because he said meaningful constructive criticism is absolutely atrocious.
Just because it's hurtful doesn't mean it's not true.

He and everyone else can have good points all day, I'm not arguing that it's invalid. Phrasing it like that just serves to drag down our discussion. (again)

Apsis wrote:Just have SoS pick three people then. Why even argue about it?

Headmins in some form will happen either way.
If there's no public election, well, this thread serves as a ground for debate. If there is? It's worth discussing merits.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:02 pm #17864

Myself neerti panda and ikky are on teamspeak3 at ministation13.no-ip.org to answer any questions you may have.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:17 pm #17877

The Q&A has ended, thank you to everyone who attended.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:12 am #17891

Thanks for coming, those who did.

I hope you all found it productive and perhaps even enjoyable.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:27 am #17898

Could we get a summary for those who missed it?

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:28 am #17899

Pandarsenic wrote:Thanks for coming, those who did.

I hope you all found it productive and perhaps even enjoyable.

I really enjoyed it. And it was nice getting so many people together to talk about things with everyone staying civil and friendly. I learned a lot from everyone's contributions admins as well as players. Also it was nice meeting some players out of IC. Kind of sheds a whole new light on game play and the people I'm playing with. I hope we do this more often.

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:29 am #17900

bandit wrote:Could we get a summary for those who missed it?

There's a recording and I made a paste bin of text logs. I'd post the pastebin but it wouldn't make much sense out of context. People are still on ts by the way if you want to come see what's up.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:48 am #17903

Please post the recording

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:00 am #17908

My biggest takeaway from this was that Anton, Neerti, and I hold very similar opinions on nearly all the issues raised. The only thing we seemed to disagree on was how much players should be expected to know about policies.

I don't think we'll get as much infighting as the last round of headmins. Everyone is eager to engage in civil discourse to resolve issues.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:45 am #17912

Let's not get too hasty, HG and spacemanspark have a fighting chance in this thing.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:37 am #17932

Everyone who ran is probably running because they saw HBL/Inti and went "I can fix this..."

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:19 am #17958

https://db.tt/QgkC88fX

Link to the recording. It is 1 hour 40 minutes and ended up missing a smaller beginning portion. Sorry for the incoveniance but I belive the overall dicscussion worked out better on ts3 vs other platforms.

We definately got quite a bit done, and were mostly in agreement with each other more or less entirely.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:46 pm #18009

I have a feeling that fake poll was more or less what we'll end up with. A sign of the ancient /tg/ spirits.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:30 am #18081

Apsis wrote:It honestly just boils down to: "I don't know whats happen I have opinion! meta bad!" and "I hate those Artyom fucks arggh but I wont say it!"

A good sign I've made a valid point is that your only response is to just try to be insulting.

Come on dude what? Have I been hulked? Who talks like that? You make it sound like I'm punching through R-walls while I'm raising these points.

I'm genuinely worried we're going to have a repeat of the last instance if this keeps on. People are aspiring to a title without being fully aware of what the responsibility is.

Have any of the candidates said which headmin role they would actually want to take up? I don't want to be in a position to shake my head and say "told you so" when one of you inevitably gets saddled with Head of Bans and gets burned the fuck out on it because now you're doing work. I only see one candidate in the whole run who has relevant experience shoveling that shit and they haven't said a single word in this thread.

Who among you has taught the most trialmins? Set time aside to be on at hours that are strange to you so you can teach new admins to cover those gaps? Do you think you can be the guy who finally fixes that problem and gives us 24/7 admin coverage? Have you even thought about how you would do that?

I think people are attracted to a title and forgetting that there is a job attached to that. It's that ignorance that cost us two otherwise great admins and I don't think anybody wants to see that again.

Do you really know what you're asking for?

Like, just looking at the ban requests I see threads almost two weeks old with no responses. How does anybody say they can be a headmin when nobody can be assed to handle this basic shit?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:31 am #18082

An0n3 loves artyom too so I don't know why you'd insinuate he's mad at us

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:42 am #18084

Artyom is much more creative and hilarious. I enjoy passively watching the random shit that goes down there more than Sibyl. It has more moments that make me appreciate that this whole shitshow is still up and running. I am much more inclined to give people rideable Corgi Mounts or whatever on Artyom.

Sibyl gives me more nostalgia but at the same time has a freshness to it that I like. It's the game, for the love of the game. Watching babby's first changeling round reminds me of what it was like for me when I had no fucking clue what any of this did and it's special for that.

When it comes to where I am on the (incredibly infrequent) times I'm actually on playing/adminning it's whichever server has fewer admins on it that aren't idle. I don't have a preference between them, I just go where I'm needed most.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:34 am #18091

ARGHH!!! I WOULD ARGUE BUT WASN'T DIRECTED TO ANYONE IN SPECIFIC!! THOUGH TO ME SEEMED LIKE YOU WERE UNDER INFORMED BUT I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!!! I DO AGREE WITH THE HEADMIN TITLE RESPONSIBILITY THING!! YES GAME ITSELF FUN BUT FRIENDSHIP NICE TOO!!! THANK YOU FOR TIME!!!

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:43 am #18100

Our previous headmins have set the bar so low I don't think it's possible for new ones to be any worse. As long as they don't hate each others guts, and are actually active enough that people aren't surprised to learn there are actually supposed to be three headmins, I think we'll be alright.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:09 pm #18143

aka as long as they aren't like the previous headcoders they'll be fine.
i couldn't tell the difference between the headcoders and the maintainers for the longest time.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:49 pm #18324

An0n3 wrote:Have any of the candidates said which headmin role they would actually want to take up?

now stop right there
that role shit and division of responsibilities is literally exactly why the last set of headmins was shit
and i know i say literally a lot but i mean fucking literally
they could not work together without stepping on eachothers toes and they both shoved around their fancy titles and responsibilities as a way to end disagreements and it fucking sucked. they acted as if their ONLY responsibilities were the ones given by their titles, and mostly ignored the actual headminning part. deuryn is excluded because he was didnt do much anyway, but at least he wasnt in a petty squabble like hbl and intig.
dealing with ban threads or whatever is EVERY ADMIN'S JOB, including headmins. a headmin should be someone who can put forth a shit ton of effort into adminning, lead people, settle disputes or arguments, make policy, etc. and IMO they should be more like community leaders than the people pulling all the strings from behind. they should be active and friendly so everyone knows who they are.
the last 3 headmins didnt really have those qualities. intig did make policy, and hbl did settle disputes sometimes (though more through executive decisions than mediating) but IMO a good headmin should have all of those qualities. deuryn is a cool guy and im sure he's a great admin, but he is just never active enough. most of the current candidates, or at least the ones im rooting for, are very active.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:37 pm #18330

Can we just get this over with already?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:55 pm #18334

up to scaredy and the admins

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:11 pm #18339

mrpain wrote:Can we just get this over with already?

I don't think we're getting over anything

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:41 pm #18346

Speaking as someone who knows what they're talking, miggles has no idea what they are talking about.

It was a lot more than that

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:46 pm #18347

Please tell us lowly player peasants what it was then?

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:12 pm #18351

Brotemis wrote:Speaking as someone who knows what they're talking, miggles has no idea what they are talking about.

It was a lot more than that

Speaking as someone who wants to shut down dissenting ideas, brotemis has no idea what they are talking about.

It was a lot more than that.

I don't to provide proof because I run singulo and hence know everything