Headmin Elections General

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:03 pm #16810

Bottom post of the previous page:

Yeah brotemis is right
Bad players are terrible admins
Absolutely
Terrible

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:04 pm #16812

bluespace is the terriblest admin

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:37 pm #16817

Bluespace wrote:Yeah brotemis is right
Bad players are terrible admins
Absolutely
Terrible

This is where I would tell you to suck a dick because lelelel passive aggressive sarcasm :^)

There are always exceptions to the rule, you might be one of them and doubts were raised when you were trialminned but you proved people wrong

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:48 pm #16822

Thank you miggly ;3
Sorry I just had to be a special snowflake and point it out.

ANTON4HEDMIN

Spacemanspark · Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:19 pm

geilebeer wrote:Is spacemanspark even an admin.

No.
I'd completely forgotten about this...

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:26 pm #16846

lots of votes siphoned off by joke and/or non-admin candidates

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm #16850

Deuryn, Hornygranny, Ikkarus 2014

These people actually have experience leading the playerbase in one capacity or another. Most other candidates are either jokes or people who genuinely don't know what they're getting in to.
Being a Headmin is like being the Chief of Police. A lot of admins think that they can handle the position because they've spent a lot of time on the streets writing tickets and catching criminals.

Yeah no.

420goslingboy69 · Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:58 pm

I'd rather have some new-blood who isn't pompous like HG. Deuryn has zero activity, and even though he is a nice person, is a complete and utter waste of a headmin slot. Ikkarus has always been iffy for me.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:31 pm #16865

Deuryn has experience and good judgement. He may not have a lot of consistent activity but he almost always appears when he's needed and he's reliable for that.

HG has the same experience and judgement. His communication with people continues to improve and in my opinion hasn't really been so bad as to be noteworthy for a while now...but that's my opinion of it.

Ikky has also been around for ages and been pretty important in different capacities over the years. There have been times when he probably could've pushed for more responsibilities and "power" and he hasn't...which to me is the best kind of person to give power. People who are reluctant to wield power are usually the best ones to have it.

You want to see how people who crave that kind of responsibility perform, look at the last batch of headmins and how many of them are still standing.

At any rate the biggest problem plaguing /tg/station these days is our godawful playerbase. I don't know how to put it nicely. The reason we get less new blood and have cultured a worse reputation than we have held in the past is because the average "fun" and roleplay has gone to shit. We are now where Goon was circa-2009-2010. We're the place people don't want to play on because they get ganged up on and admins listen more to their favorite players and special snowflakes, or are just too busy pushy buttons and fucking off to do anything.

I have no idea or suggestion to how to fix that, other than trying to recommend people vote for Headmins that remember a time before now or at least are disliked by the current playerbase because they aren't worth being liked by.

It's kinda like how you sometimes see parents out with their kids and their parents are dressing like their kids, trying to be cool and be their kids' friends instead of parents. If kids got to pick their parents they would pick Mr. and Mrs. RadicalFuntimes and never go to bed or go to school or eat their vegetables and eventually wind up partying in a pool of their own filth and decay or just starving to death.

It sounds fucking awful and I never thought I'd be saying it but I think we need to buckle down and make with the tough love. Stop feeding people fistfuls of candy and get back to basics.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:47 pm #16868

Anton, pandar, and neerti being headminned remind me of when HBL was headminned. None of them are bad admins nor dickheads but it's a slippery slope from there. It's not like I'm perfectly justified in saying this either, but I seriously expected more people to choose from in addition to that.

Anton is probably the least experienced admin out of those leading this poll yet he's on top. Also, scaredy didn't make this poll apparently, erro did, which is probably enough to start raising some flags. I'll wait for SoS to make a statement regarding this poll before I take the results seriously. Elyina isn't even on the poll, even though scaredy confirmed he took elyina's application in last minute and was going to add them to the poll for headmin.

An0n3 wrote:At any rate the biggest problem plaguing /tg/station these days is our godawful playerbase.

Can you literally fuck off?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:50 pm #16869

I think they're great guys and I have no reason to question them as admins but none of them have the leadership quality or experience.

Being liked by the playerbase doesn't mean you're a good admin or would make a good headmin.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:51 pm #16870

That's exactly why HBL and intigracy were bad headmins.

Edit: the worst part about giving so much of a shit about the playerbase liking you is that you turn into a worse admin because of it. Trying to pander to people, trying to remain liked, and throwing a big dramatic hissy fit every time someone didn't like you are things both hbl and intigracy were EXTREMELY guilty of. And I already see hbl 2.0 coming out of all of these headmin candidates.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:55 pm #16872

I've played and observed a bit over the last month and read through a lot of the forum(s) and the steno board.

My judgement, that this current playerbase is fucking shit, is deserved and I'm entitled to make it.

I think a lot of admins would love to say that but can't because >politics but right now the single group in the triumverate of coders/admins/players that is most responsible for the worst parts of the state of /tg/station is the playerbase.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:04 pm #16874

If bad admins don't ban bad players guess who's fault that is

Spoiler:

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:09 pm #16875

Am I allowed to love the fuckwads that make up the Sybil regulars?
Shit son I don't get all this politic stuff. Just slap a headmin title on someone and tell them to make some good changes.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:10 pm #16876

It's a little more complicated than that.
But even in your supposition:

Bad admins aren't banning bad players, bad players whom elected the bad admins. Ultimately whose to blame for that? Everybody.

This isn't a thread for a whole debate about my opinions on shit I just wanted to give everyone some context for what you're really voting for and how you're all going to fuck this up again.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:12 pm #16878

Players don't elect admins lmfao

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:15 pm #16879

NO HEADMIN. EVER.

Unless you do it like Highlander. For Real.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:17 pm #16880

paprika wrote:Players don't elect admins lmfao

They have a lot more choice than you're aware of. CDB is an example of what happens when the playerbase tries its hardest against a high-profile admin while the adminbus tries its hardest to keep them around.

Ultimately what happened? Who won that one?

The same thing occurs frequently on a smaller scale. Players have driven off plenty of admins through just basic shittery and harassment. It's not a democratic vote, but the players do pick and choose in some fashion who they'll listen to or who they wont.

It's the reason for politics/conspiracies. Don't tell me you're totally unaware of it when you're doing all that you've been doing over the last few months.

420goslingboy69 · Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:18 pm

CDB should never have been admin. That's a dumb example.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:23 pm #16885

CDB never had a chance to be any kind of admin because the playerbase properly railroaded them into the dirt. It's the perfect example of the power the playerbase wields and that I'm talking about.

Whether I think they could've made a decent admin or not is irrelevant to what actually happened. They were dogpiled by a constant spam of shit in and out of game.

That's the power the playerbase wields in that triumverate. You guys outnumber everybody else, and when you actually work together to agree on something you can make someone's life a living hell. Sometimes you even fuck up and do it to people you like without knowing and they run for the hills just the same.

Coders change things, admins ban, and players roar.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:00 pm #16889

Hopefully this election won't be a disastrous repeat of the current triumvirate, the current result of democracy. I wouldn't have predicted it to end the way it has, so I suppose you never know.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:11 pm #16892

An0n3:
You mention that admins need to crack down. My issue is that the playerbase is NOT properly reporting issues to the admins, and admins aren't properly responding to reports. I am sick and tired of the people who get griefed, and decide that the proper response is to bitch about it in post-round OOC. I am sick and tired of the people who make terrible adminhelps and have to be prompted for the information admins need to do any investigation. I am sick and tired of the people who respond to "Why didn't you adminhelp it" with "Admins never do anything". I am sick and tired of the fact that half the time I have to handle every damn adminhelp because everybody else just looks at it and thinks "Valid, can ignore". I am sick and tired of the admins who don't have the common decency to tell the player who just adminhelped that they're "Looking into it" so they know they're not being ignored. Most of all, I am sick and tired of the admins AND the players who assume the other side's out to get them and so they have to do everything themselves.

Hornygranny:
I still argue that the best way to have effective administrative leadership is to have one head administrator, and a fast, anonymous, and properly defined method for the other admins to replace them if they're causing issues or not doing anything.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:12 pm #16893

I agree with you, I don't think we have need for three.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:20 pm #16895

At least the difference here is most of these admins would get along with each other regardless of who's put into place I think. That's extremely important. They don't have to agree, but they have to get along no matter what, or trying to come to a decision on things will be impossible for them. That's how it is now anyway.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:25 pm #16896

i think cdb has become part of godwin's law

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:29 pm #16899

Clearer, swifter, more concrete punishments with an emphasis on rehabilitation

+

(and if you don't listen we eat your fucking face)

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:29 pm #16900

miggles wrote:i think cdb has become part of godwin's law

because cdb is literally hitler

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:36 pm #16903

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=816

Probably relevant.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:37 pm #16904

He's going to be back on friday.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:20 pm #16913

Anon hit the nail on the head.

On literally everything.

Except on maybe CDB. They literally couldn't handle security matters in an unbiased way.

To the horrible playerbase, I'm attempting to crack down on bad behavior, particularly greyshirts who think it's an excuse to Griff or greytide, or just harass people in general.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:48 pm #16916

After the election there will be about 4 weeks after my work is over after which I can take over admining full time. I do have a few questions to answer, with some in the thread and some being PMd but it would be close to impossible to write out too much on my phone. I will answer those asap when I get home friday.

Feel free to ask anything through thr thread or PMs.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:12 am #16926

Actually, You know what? I'm going to legitimize my shitpost.

What if, as an experiment, there were no headmins and all full admins were on equal footing. A council, or Congress as it were. All equal, etc.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:15 am #16927

I would think nothing significant would get done due to conflicting opinions.

Also updated OP with info, the poll may be invalid now.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:53 am #16932

I just banned someone from security who called me an oppressive asshole who was purposely out to get him. He said that /tg/station is a place where powerhungry asshole admins oppress the players and by banning him from security I had "banned him from half the game".

I had only just met him when someone adminhelped about him, I read his notes and looked into the situation.

At any rate, that's the kind of shit players say about you when you're actually doing your job. The player who was abused and adminhelped gave me a thanks, but they wont remember the situation or who helped them. The person I banned from Sec is probably making an admin complaint or a ban appeal or something right now. They'll never forget me or the time this happened to them and I took away their stunbaton.

I just honestly have no patience for anyone who is universally loved by the playerbase as the answerer of prayers, the creator of events, the funguy cooldude admin.
There's always someone doing something you could be looking into instead of popping on the server to push a bunch of buttons. There are always appeals and requests and shit you could be handling.
So what happens is the same folks who can't abide shitters end up doing all that work in the backend while Google McChuckleFuck rarely does shit else but engage players and piss rainbows down their throats.
But what happens when everyone stops doing the drudge work to focus on the fun?

We're quickly finding that out.

EDIT: Not everyone, sorry. There are people still in the trenches doing shit and flying almost completely under the radar on the gratitude scale.
I'm just saying every single time I've logged in to the server over the last month it's the same faces and it's an event round.
If I wait long enough people eventually fall asleep and then I just quietly observe or mop floors/cook food and wait for PM's...
...all the while I'm getting spammed with prayers and requests for events and people are freaking the fuck out when I say no.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:58 am #16933

I don't mean to go too far off topic of headmins but we have overpopulation issues on sybil a lot of the time so I seriously doubt the admins couldn't lay the bans on a little thicker in regards to people grey tiding, excusing that behavior at all is shitty.

But instead of banning people for days or weeks, give them permanent assistant jobbans. Seriously. Playing assistant to have no responsibilities and a huge advantage as traitor (at least on sybil) is a privilege people abuse as non-antag to grief incessantly. There needs to be very strict policies on assistant behavior with serious, lengthy assistant jobban repercussions because the bulk of the shitty players play assistant almost exclusively, from what I've seen.

Banning someone from the server entirely is a lot less effective than a permanent jobban or antag ban. It's always there, looking at them, and at least in my experience as a new player, that's the thing that taught me my lesson and got me to appeal the ban and at least shape up my in game behavior a bit.

Anone, there's still time to apply to SoS before the legitimate in game poll goes up.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:04 am #16936

No, I don't think I would make a good headmin because I'm very aggressive about trying to preserve and recreate my own ideal of what was the golden age of /tg/station.

I like you all too much to want to make you have to deal with me in a headmin position. Hopefully people with more moderate judgement will get the position and choose to either listen or ignore me as it works for the greater good.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:05 am #16937

You're basically describing elyina and alien219 as far as 'underappreciated hard worker' is concenred but neither of them applied ripip

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:06 am #16938

Elyina applied.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:08 am #16939

Probably because they're both focused more on doing the things they feel need to be done rather than adding more to their plate.
On the one hand I think about what I could do as the Head of Bans again, but by that same token I'm almost afraid of what I would do as the Head of Bans.

I haven't been active enough in a long time. I already gave my recommendations for who I think would be the best genuine fit for headminship.

Seriously just look into the eyes of my weeb avatar and ask yourself if you would pick that dude to lead the group.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:11 am #16941

if everyone did the drudge work nobody would like any admin
there needs to be a good balance of funmins and admins who get down and do the dirty work and whether we have that now is debatable but trying to have all of one or the other will just lead to issues and people complaining out the ass

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:35 am #16946

Or we could get better admins/ train our current ones that events aren't everything and you're expected to be able to do trudge work. We can literally find anyone who can push buttons and be well liked for it. (See HBL, badger station) but do fuck all concerning griefers or generally bad players because God forbid they pass someone off and they make a post claiming said admin banned them for being a shit.

I cut my teeth as a trialmin dealing with Roman and Tyler during the whole DDOS episode reading logs, making connections and zeroing in on him. Finding multiple CID's, ckey's, and IP'S and ensuring they all stayed banned and it ended with an ultimatum to Roman which he took.

Now that he's trying to come back, he's been banned in hilarious ways and his IP's nuked by SOS, most of the grunt work was done by NikNakflak with me only helping here and there.

Does Niknakflak ever get thanks for this? No. Does the playerbase even know half the stuff that happens on the backside of adminning? No. No one is going to thank someone for doing something they volunteered to do for free especially when they don't see the effects of it, only when it doesn't happen do they see it..

In short, some admins need to shape up fast and learn that adminning isn't about pleasing everyone.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:00 am #16949

Honestly after finding out about niknak's involvement in keeping the absolute worst of the worst players off this server by doing the dirty work, even if it's just busywork, makes him an infinitely better admin than the one that made me a god modded alien with a taser on a janicart. He went from 'brown nosing admin observer' to great contributor at least in my eyes extra fast. Maybe that's more my fault of reading admins at surface level, but that's a maturity issue that a lot of players suffer from, myself included. It's kind of nice to know that we have capable admins to keep extra strong flavored dickbags off the server and it makes me appreciate them a lot more.

It's not like everything the admins do is going to suddenly be clear as crystal and everyone in the playerbase is going to be let in on this shit either, which I don't expect, even if it does immediately improve people's perception of admins.

The worst part is? It IS about pleasing everyone Brotemis, because Scaredy decided that a popularity contest from the players would be a better idea for choosing headmins than something like, say, an admin-only vote. Headmins should be selected from these people that get a peek inside where we players don't, that see the actual contributions admins make, EVERY admin, not just the ones that spam events and are nice. Anton is a GREAT person too, but we need someone who no player is going to want to vote for most of the time and that's just how it is.

This would have been a better thing to bring up at the last community meeting on sunday but I was too butthurt about artyom not having the same DB to mention it. And I don't want to tell scaredy how to run his community or anything, but isn't it like a majority shared opinion of all the admins that headmin voting should be in-house and not involve players at all since it's not like headmins are the 'presidents of da servers'?

If anything all this poll will show is which admins get good rep with players, WHICH IS STILL SOMETHING SOME ADMINS SHOULD WORK ON, COUGH COUGH BROTEMIS COUGH COUGH, but it's not indicative of headmin quality.

It should be like choosing the pirate king.

The people who vote should be pirates.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:54 am #16969

The vote is a joke and even if it happens to be legitimate should be disregarded in its entirety.
We, as a unit encompassing 100% of the administration, have zero organization and should just wait for SoS.

An0n3 wrote:We're the place people don't want to play on because they get ganged up on and admins listen more to their favorite players and special snowflakes, or are just too busy pushy buttons and fucking off to do anything.

An0n3 wrote:Bad admins aren't banning bad players, bad players whom elected the bad admins. Ultimately whose to blame for that? Everybody.

Brotemis wrote:(As some others have in the list)

Brotemis wrote:In short, some admins need to shape up fast and learn that adminning isn't about pleasing everyone.

While I like to see people not ass-kissing the startling vagueness in all these posts is just as bad. If you're both so up-in-arms about certain people in our administration I'm sure it would benefit us all more to be specific in your broad, negative, conveniently-message-supporting criticism.

WHO are the bad admins? WHO is playing favorites? WHO needs to shape up? WHO isn't banning people for greytide and generally being a dick?
WHO are these "event-all-day-every-day" people? Speaking with some degree of specificity helps your opinion actually mean something.

Everything here reeks of pushing a specific agenda instead of actually attempting to remove or criticize/change these people.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:30 am #16972

Funny thing is, the last admins picked and/or voted on by the players (me, Neerti, SubtleGraces, Antonkr, possibly someone around the time of Antonkr's adminship?) all seem to be in the group that Gets Shit Done.

Hi guys.

I summarized our silicon policy in a document and made hulks nonhuman and apparently this made other admins mad because it means they have to read the policy because it's written instead of unwritten.

Yeah I dunno.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:36 am #16973

Why are people discussing bad admins in a thread about headmin elections? (I mean, I know why.)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:37 am #16974

Whether or not you're admins that are nice for the sake of being nice AND nice admins that get shit done isn't something the average player will know.

And only one of those things is what's especially necessary for a headmin to do their job in a way that doesn't suck.

Again, nobody is pointing fingers here, at least I'm not. This ISN'T the time or the place for that.

This is a time and a place to discuss HOW headmins should be selected, and what criteria will benefit both the administration and the players, not a few applications and a popularity contest. Anyone can win a popularity contest. I think that's the real message brotemis and an0n3 are trying to convey. Stop taking things personally though, there's a reason they aren't being specific.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:43 am #16976

The only thing that ruffles my feathers a little is the fact that Deuryn and Errorage are even running. Deuryn is the invisible headmin that was in-active for 2+ years, and Errorage pretty much cut all ties (despite us still using ALL of his database tools, so props to that at least.) Everyone else running should just put out their stances like they have with those paper sheet thingys, and then some sort of vote should be done. I'm less about the how and more about the who honestly.

Fateweaver · Post by **Fateweaver** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:47 am #16977

can i be on the ballot

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:50 am #16979

paprika wrote:Again, nobody is pointing fingers here, at least I'm not. This ISN'T the time or the place for that.

I understand what they're getting at but you can't have it both ways. Absolutely not.
Either stick to the facts and quit >implying about all the "problem-administrators" or stop pretending it's anything but that.

This is literally being vague as possible about the negatives and then name-dropping someone like NNF to prove a positive point.

It's pretty directly relevant to the discussion when "some people" and "folks who spoil the playerbase" are used as reasons why "some people" on that faulty April Fool's Joke of an election list shouldn't be elected. It's practically the only thing Brotemis talks about on the forums these days and quite frankly I'm tired of it. Whether I'm part of that group or not I don't want to see another Headmin election that just turns into dirty politics and complaining about the state of the server/how much more horrible it is than the days when we were a hundred-player at most community.

Either be specific or hold your tongue about "some people" on that list. They're running for Headmin, they can handle a little direct criticism.
If they can't then guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T BE RUNNING AT ALL.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:13 am #16986

This thread has been enlightening about the state of /tg/station as a whole, the headmin election itself, and the opinions and mannerisms of many people. Because of this, I'm going to vote for someone completely different than I was planning, and that's a good thing. Gotta do some good, long thinking rather than the 0-thought strategy I had originally.