Public Headmin Discussion

[ColonicAcid]

Bottom post of the previous page:

As for circlejerks?
"Leave, if playing and RPing with consistent characters and people you get along with is the only reason you play."
Ban people for things that break the rules. Not for things that they like to do that don't fundamentally damage the game.

>circlejerks don't fundementally damage the game.

.............................
are you for real right now?
like i'm just gobsmacked.
like woooooooooooooooooooooooow.

[Higgin]

As for circlejerks?
"Leave, if playing and RPing with consistent characters and people you get along with is the only reason you play."
Ban people for things that break the rules. Not for things that they like to do that don't fundamentally damage the game.

>circlejerks don't fundementally damage the game.

.............................
are you for real right now?
like i'm just gobsmacked.
like woooooooooooooooooooooooow.

>people don't associate into groups
>this doesn't happen in randomname games anyway
>"metafuckery", metacomms and rule 1 violations = RP

People being dicks and flipping off the handle against sec et. al. because of their characters' relationships are still being dicks. That crosses the line which admins are called upon to judge.
People associating with each other and making friends don't harm the game. Everyone has the possibility of being a traitor and flipping that around with full license to do so if they wish, so group security is no benefit.
RP is not the problem and I'm against random-naming because it'd kill RP, remove a lot of interesting characters, not address the problems of people breaking rules, metacomms, and frienddickery, and accomplish little but turning Artyom into Basil and Sibyl into Sibyl with different names.

[paprika]

Why is letting admins decide headmins a bad way to go about it? There was a long discussion about how players don't see the behind the scenes contributions that admins make, aka the contributions that matter a lot more most of the time, thus their opinion on fellow admins carries more weight than 99% of players who just vote for who's the nicest admin or the admin who hasn't pissed someone off.

[Timbrewolf]

This "friendly RP" has all but ruined the fucking game.

If I'm a random-faced assistant and I walk up to the Chemist and I ask for something, it's usually a simple matter of what I'm asking for and how scrupulous the Chemist is.

If I'm part of the circlejerk it doesn't matter what my job is or what I'm asking for, I'm going to get it.
When the circlejerk is large enough that it's spread out over a few different departments you get a network of assholes supplying eachother with everything the station has to offer.
When a player the circlejerk doesn't like tries to do basic shit they'll often be interfered with every step of the way by seemingly the entire station.
A new player might ask for something and get rejected only to watch someone just like themselves wander up and receive full service and they wonder what the fuck is going on here.

Our gradual acceptance of more and more "meta" behavior has turned the station into a fucking middle-school playground.

But it's okay because our characters are friends and friends help eachother out.

At worst this even extends into FNR where people start phoning in friends to come vouch for themselves or against the person they're having problems with.

What boggles my mind about this is you're all retarded one-dimensional characters that you cling to like you're enacting shakespear everyday on the station. DONT TAKE AWAY MY ROLEPLAYS! MY CHARACTER IS VERY SPECIAL TO ME! Bullshit your character is just a skintone, a haircut, and a name. And a list of people you cooperate with and a list of people you don't.

If I could I would smash all that shit with a giant hammer.

[Swagile]

And players tend to pick admins who makes the most events.

Or most interesting.

But, like pap said, there's a lot of behind-the-scene work that goes on that is usually more important.





and anon is based god, he knows whats up. i agree 100%, no sarcasm or :^) face. the meta is real and needs to stop.

[Timbrewolf]

I wont name any names because the fucking ridiculous part of it all is that I like everyone I'm complaining about.
I'll tell you in general terms that I think what you're doing is wrong and really fucking sucks but I'm not going to force you to change, because in some weird way I consider you friends.

[Isane]

Or you could name names so people don't think you're blowing an issue way out of proportion. Especially since your suggestion to fix it is something that would piss off the majority of the servers.

[Higgin]

Why is letting admins decide headmins a bad way to go about it? There was a long discussion about how players don't see the behind the scenes contributions that admins make, aka the contributions that matter a lot more most of the time, thus their opinion on fellow admins carries more weight than 99% of players who just vote for who's the nicest admin or the admin who hasn't pissed someone off.

It isn't.

[Higgin]

"Friendly RP" doesn't happen when that person can and does turn around and shoot you for the greentext, but that doesn't always happen - so there's some point. It's as random as those scruples you're talking about.

But we say that this is a light-RP game. If we want it to be pure, paranoid, alienated SS13, random-name away. I and a lot of others like RP and random-naming would kill a lot of character interaction, development, and fun - take a visit to the backstories page. People DO RP, and you inhabit Sibyl for the largest part of your time around, Anon.

When a player the circlejerk doesn't like tries to do basic shit they'll often be interfered with every step of the way by seemingly the entire station.
A new player might ask for something and get rejected only to watch someone just like themselves wander up and receive full service and they wonder what the fuck is going on here.

As we've been arguing at the level of anecdotal evidence this whole time, I'm gonna say that I haven't seen this sort of thing happen very often on Artyom. People aren't always unfair dildos and this isn't going to address those that are.

[bandit]

The circlejerk stuff is stupid and separate and has nothing to do with headmin elections. If you really don't like it, be the change you wish to see in the world and randomname yourself. (It's also completely fucking pointless if no one names names.)

Blaming the players for admins or headmins' behavior is also stupid. The players didn't make two out of three headmins stop talking to each other or disappear and make the headmin system functionally useless. There is literally no line of reasoning that makes this the case. The players didn't even have any knowledge that this would happen, and if you say you knew it would happen you're fucking Nostradamus.

[Pandarsenic]

FACT: I have, personally, gotten all-access I didn't even ask for because someone liked me. This led to me murdering half the station because I realized it eventually, and I was a changeling. This same person was banned in the same round for giving a lawyer all-access then tasing sec when they tried to stop the lawyer from grabbing sec gear without saying anything about it.

It DOES happen a nonzero amount of times, and it shouldn't, but all randomname won't fix that.

Anyway, to answer the original question: "What are your definitions of powergaming and metagaming in relation to /tg/station?"
Powergaming is when you go over the top with gearing yourself up for fights before you have a reason to expect them, usually so you can valid the shit out of an antag who shows up - getting yourself sunglasses, holy water, space lube spray, a stun prod, cable cuffs, a hardsuit helmet... shooting and force-implanting people as soon as the mention of flashing in the hallways goes up so that conversions will fail...
Getting the coveted insulated gloves at roundstart as Captain or HoP...
In short, going "I don't need these... but I MIGHT, so I'm getting them, so I can Win if it comes up."

Metagaming is following around the dude with the roundstart flash until he flashes you or to robust him posthaste, or yelling "REVOLUTIONARIES" at the first sound of a flash, or god fucking help you if you compare the number of readies to the number of PDAs and silicons to figure out whether it's a wizard (1 PDA missing) or nuke ops round (5 missing) and get ready to face it, or otherwise reacting to threats that you only know because of out-of-character knowledge applied in an anti-immersive way. Using OoC knowledge like how many people readied or the like is metagaming, as would to my eyes the old "He is repulsively uncanny!" message on humans, where it was literally possible to declare someone too ugly to be human, and thus they had to be a ling, until I asked hornygranny to make a pull to change it (which went through) and make it apparent they were nonhuman, not just a gross old person. So is something like spacing yourself if you're being attacked by a changeling or cult in case they have to take your brain or sac you.

So powergaming: Acting in an unreasonable way IC because of OoC desire to win a conflict when you don't even know IF it will happen; Metagaming: Acting in an unreasonable way IC because of OoC knowledge of game patterns and mechanics.

[Mat13295]

You guys remember the last April fool's with random name enforced? People found a way to find out who their friends were and just continued playing as if static names were still in.

[Fatal]

Regarding the whole, circlejerk thing slightly

This often seems to be the cause of a lot of the greytiding, and is anything going to be done about it? The greytiding is getting out of control quite often on sybil now and I frankly refuse to play security until people stop it

Would love to know the candidates opinions really (IE, stricter rules regarding greytiding)

[Pandarsenic]

Regarding the whole, circlejerk thing slightly

This often seems to be the cause of a lot of the greytiding, and is anything going to be done about it? The greytiding is getting out of control quite often on sybil now and I frankly refuse to play security until people stop it

Would love to know the candidates opinions really (IE, stricter rules regarding greytiding)

I already ban for gray tiding. If you fuck with anyone, you had better have a reason. Sec is no exception. If you harass sec just because they're sec, I will ban you and say "Get your shit together by the time you're back." If everyone enforced Rule 1 about that matter, it wouldn't be a problem.

[WeeYakk]

When the circlejerk is large enough that it's spread out over a few different departments you get a network of assholes supplying eachother with everything the station has to offer.
When a player the circlejerk doesn't like tries to do basic shit they'll often be interfered with every step of the way by seemingly the entire station.

Sounds like how a well behaved, law abiding crew is supposed to work. Departments interacting and supplying each other as needed.
People who are good employees get trusted to be good. People who are shit are expected to act like shit and do not get the same privileges. Seems pretty in character.

Maybe I'm in too deep (or it's happening on Sybil but I wouldn't know that cause I don't play there) but I don't see the "metacliques" operating at a game ruining level.

[MisterPerson]

Frankly I don't think it matters who we pick. All the candidates are running on a "the system works, why change it?" platform. None of them have any remotely controversial viewpoints or proposed changes (unless An0n3 started running while I wasn't looking). Thus it basically comes down to who the other admins will follow, and the only people with an inkling of that are the admins themselves. And even if we do fuck up and elect Hitler, Stalin, and Obama, I'm pretty sure all the other admins would continue to run things pretty well because they're all pretty dedicated and not retarded. I mean shit, look at the state of things right now and how everything continues to function. Bureaucracy in action ladies and gentlemen.

So unless someone would like to reveal their secret desire to unban 2beard or something equally absurd, I'd stop worrying so damn much on how headmins are chosen or even who they are and instead just do some changing of the guard ASAP.

[Psyentific]

Honestly, the only reason we need headmins is to elevate FNRs and policies and such. The only thing bad with the old set was HBL/Inti drama, and two of my favorite admins driving each other up the wall. If I had to pick three, though? I dunno, Pando, Bluspess, Antonkr?

[Helios127]

You guys remember the last April fool's with random name enforced? People found a way to find out who their friends were and just continued playing as if static names were still in.

Metagaming is a bannable offense.

Anyways, I really dont know where this 'stop the metafreinds circlejerk' discussion came upon, because from my experiance playing it doesnt happen. Not on Artoym at least, and I have a feeling that even if it does happen on sybil, its not to nightmarish degrees where something needs to be done where one will gladly out themselves as an antag... and still get help from their metabuddy anyways.

Aside from Hornygranny, ALL OF THE HEADMIN CANDIATES ARE REALLY GOOD! I personally like Pandarsenic, but Anton is also a pretty sweet choice. Fortunetly theres really no need to worry about HG getting the position judging from the pre-polls. HG is a awful choice and everyone seems to know this now.

[Subtle]

Now we're getting somewhere!

It would be interesting to see where some of our other candidates fall on the subject of metagamers/meta-cliques. To those who suggest it's unimportant who we elect; I'd say that even this conversation is preferable to blindly voting for whoever provided you with the most cookies the last time you prayed. (And if the last public elections, including this fake one, are anything to go by that's a real problem) I continue to insist we can't argue over the form these elections take because we've all come to realize public votes are terrible. There are some very real doubts in my mind that Scaredy will even include actual votes!

He does however visit threads on the forum. If we can keep it civil enough to tolerate reading we might be able to bring some genuine issues to light for both him and the playerbase at large. (which includes Admins and Coders; in a perfect world anyway) The concept of "how" these elections will be run isn't up for debate. Not by us anyway, so let's focus on the people involved.

Frankly I don't think it matters who we pick. All the candidates are running on a "the system works, why change it?" platform.

Legitimate point here, one I keep hearing; but again I'd love to hear suggestions as to who might be better for the position! Perhaps I'm over-weighing the actual propensity for change from this system at large, but if we could get these candidates to at least think about taking some sort of direction then we might see more real changes being attempted by them. Adminbus is pretty vanilla, or people are fairly afraid to speak up about controversial opinions. I'd like to see the end of that.

Aside from Hornygranny, ALL OF THE HEADMIN CANDIATES ARE REALLY GOOD! I personally like Pandarsenic, but Anton is also a pretty sweet choice. Fortunetly theres really no need to worry about HG getting the position judging from the pre-polls. HG is a awful choice and everyone seems to know this now.

I think most people would be fairly surprised to find out what a standup guy HG is outside of the feedback threads where everyone is calling for his blood. I would personally rather have a hard-handed leader with some form of direction for the game and an iron shell than, say, those who intend to maintain the status-quot. This might be an unpopular opinion to have but he's easily one of the most qualified people on that list.

Would love to know the candidates opinions really (IE, stricter rules regarding greytiding)

Agreed; I've been facing some issues lately regarding people performing breakouts, attacking security and such for no real reason. It's no more endemic these days than in the past though. Fun fact that some folks might not know... Greytide is actually, in part, a host-protected right of the assistant. This is (as far as I can tell) because in the days when we were a smaller server they could be counted on not to do it for genuinely malicious reasons. It was a funny thing, a little blip that happened to bother Sec in the odd round. I think its evolved into something much darker though.

Finally, to briefly touch on the meta-clique issue as well, it is very real on Artyom. Less-so on Sybil but I can still promise you Mugen Lloris (sp?) gets what Mugen Lloris wants. (Just to use Dawn as a genuinely random example of a well known name) I understand you want to have a storyline, or that persistent character relationships are rewarding to build, but I've had to ban six people over the course of two rounds on Arty because of these "persistent relationships" literally being used as justification to break into the brig and murder the HoS to save their friends. I'll sum it up like this... I don't care how much you two have been through, if your best friend turns out to be a deadly syndicate agent, or guilty of a serious crime, I think you should be banned for saying "Oh, okay, I'll cover for your crimes/murders because we're friends." At least make an effort to justify it with this round's RP.

[Mat13295]

Subtle for headmin

[miggles]

an0n3 i have a question for you:
do you know what the hell you're talking about?
for how long have you been playing recently? didn't you quit like 5 different times?
you're acting like the server as it is now is worse than it was in sibyl 2 days.. because, what, people roleplay in a roleplaying game?
you really are trying to force your agenda on the "golden age of tg" arent you? what's the golden age? do you actually think you're battling a real phenomenon or do you just want the server to turn into your vision of a nostalgic tg?
you want to play on a server where people dont care about roleplay? play on a different server. don't even try to deny that roleplay exists because that's just ignorance to the max. maybe to YOU, YOUR character is just a name with a face, but you can't speak for everyone else with that statement. if you actually spent any significant amount of time on either server recently you would be able to easily notice how many characters have existing personalities that separate them from bald green eyed assistant default human #82974.
and that's not being a "special snowflake," its being a sociable fucking human being.

[Brotemis]

The golden age was when I was a trialmin.

Quit being so melodramatic, Miggles. Anon3 is completely right.

The "radical" idea of forcenaming even for a week would do the community a lot of good. Anyone remotely attempting to identify as who they actually are would be slapped with a metagaming ban. Think its too controversial or a bad idea or people will leave the server?


Good. Fuck them and fuck you. I would rather new blood in the server that has no idea what they're doing than a bunch of circle jerks. Pandarsenic's example is good.



I've personally seen other HOP's give full access to mimes WITHOUT ANY PRIOR CONVERSATIONS or people pulling each other in the halls, or just in general, act friendly to people and give anything to those they know but hostile to those they dont.

[Steelpoint]

Was I in that round Pander was reffering to? The one where a Lawyer wordlessly ran into Sec and started taking Security gear, I arrest him, he starts screaming and then the HoP runs in and wordlessly stuns myself and another Officer before bailing with the Lawyer? We did arrest both of them a few minutes later.

To be honest, with the amount of HoP's that just hand out access like candy I can't tell if the person is just a "friend" of the HoP or just got lucky.

Aside from HoP's I have seen a few similar incidents on Sybil. For example a Chemist refused to give chems to a Botanist one round for no reason, another round the QM refused to order a legitimate crate for someone even when the Captain (Myself) ordered them to do so.

[Fatal]

The biggest problem I have so far on sybil, and I've not played so much recently, is not so much blatant attacking security for no reason at all, but, being extremely shitty, doing criminal things, and then getting people to use it as an excuse to riot and rebel against security

Good example was a recent round where I was AI, some of the details are bit iffy, but anyhow:

Captain gives security a free pass to execute any one guilty of that level of crime
Someone eventually gets executed, for being a shitler and breaking a window into permabrig and the security equipment room (both exposed to space)
Captain doesn't like it, claims security are not loyal to NT, and that the dead criminal was (and claims security is evil)
A few people take this an excuse to fight against security (despite not knowing the details) and promptly get killed by security also (deservedly)
HoP outs himself as a traitor to the Captain, parapens a sec officer who tries to arrest Captain and HoP, and kills a lawyer trying to help, and welds the sec officer into a locker
I get my core blown up
Aliens happen
Everyone dies

Maybe I'm just overly critical of things these days, but peoples attitudes in general are just poor and I would love to see much done about it (not easy, I know)

Forcing random name would be a good idea, if only for a week to see how it plays out

Some stricter rules in some areas would be nice to see perhaps also

(I remember that round with the HoP and lawyer, was shameful from both of them)

[Miauw]

have coders vote for headmins :^)

Jokes aside, I think admins should vote for headmins for the same reason why coders should vote for headcoders: the playerbase only sees a fraction of what they really do and who they are.

(also if you like :^) remember that hg popularized it as an alternative to ))))))))))))))))) which was popularized by erro's passive-aggresive 's)

[bandit]

The biggest problem with the server is that all frameworks for IC punishments basically do not exist anymore, and whenever someone tries to do a completely legit thing (brigging, demotion, confiscating people's stolen and/or illegal shit, even issuing orders from a superior in the chain of command) the players go apeshit and start either attacking or ban requesting everything in sight. It doesn't help that the IC checks and balances (lawyer, HoP, gaping void in job system that would be an Internal Affairs guy) are even worse. We don't need less RP, we need MORE of it.

[Higgin]

The golden age was when I was a trialmin.

Quit being so melodramatic, Miggles. Anon3 is completely right.

The "radical" idea of forcenaming even for a week would do the community a lot of good. Anyone remotely attempting to identify as who they actually are would be slapped with a metagaming ban. Think its too controversial or a bad idea or people will leave the server?


Good. Fuck them and fuck you. I would rather new blood in the server that has no idea what they're doing than a bunch of circle jerks. Pandarsenic's example is good.



I've personally seen other HOP's give full access to mimes WITHOUT ANY PRIOR CONVERSATIONS or people pulling each other in the halls, or just in general, act friendly to people and give anything to those they know but hostile to those they dont.

>identities are necessarily bad
>disagree?
>fuck you.
>also fuck player counts
>HoPs giving out free all-access wordlessly is a new thing
>people pulling each other around in between conversations or going places are obviously meta-gaming
>the considerations are in overabundance without my grasp

You've been around for as long as I have, Brotemis. Your "golden age" coincides with when actual metafriend rule 1 violations and sec-harassing were under scrutiny because they were a serious problem due to the armory getting raided and sec bombed each round. Identities are a part of the "community" that you are proposing we do good for by random-naming everyone just as you say that driving the people away from here who are a part of that same community is perfectly fine to do. That doesn't work.

[Brotemis]

Security also had a quick and easy way of dealing with shitlers. Antag sec.

[Higgin]

Security also had a quick and easy way of dealing with shitlers. Antag sec.

Antag sec a different issue entirely, a license to valid is not something to base your policy of dealing with issues like metafriends assaulting sec and the armory off of. Sec can deal with shitlers quick and easy these days by grabbing them and harmbatoning them, and nobody's going to bitch if, as in the greytides you surely were around for, security beats those responsible down as fast as they can stun them.

Though, really, players being more receptive and chill about IC punishments would be the optimal route. Quite often things are moving too fast to get a proper demotion done.

[ColonicAcid]

have coders vote for headmins :^)

Jokes aside, I think admins should vote for headmins for the same reason why coders should vote for headcoders: the playerbase only sees a fraction of what they really do and who they are.

(also if you like :^) remember that hg popularized it as an alternative to ))))))))))))))))) which was popularized by erro's passive-aggresive 's)

>hg popularized :^)
you have no idea what you're talking about do you?

[Helios127]

Man, I must be really out of the loop. Wheres all the ERPing and metafreinding that I am not seeing?

The golden age was when I was a trialmin.

Nah, even though you were a very good trailmin (instead of a very hostile fullmin) we still had CDB.

[Higgin]

Man, I must be really out of the loop. Wheres all the ERPing and metafreinding that I am not seeing?

The golden age was when I was a trialmin.

Nah, even though you were a very good trailmin (instead of a very hostile fullmin) we still had CDB.

*shudder*

[Helios127]

Man, I must be really out of the loop. Wheres all the ERPing and metafreinding that I am not seeing?

The golden age was when I was a trialmin.

Nah, even though you were a very good trailmin (instead of a very hostile fullmin) we still had CDB.

*shudder*

Actually, this brings up a good question. How much power does a headmin hold? Nobody delt with CDB until way too late, and I am still in shock.

[Cipher3]

To be honest, with the amount of HoP's that just hand out access like candy I can't tell if the person is just a "friend" of the HoP or just got lucky.

I stopped playing HoP because I actually dare to deny people ridiculous amounts of access and I was taking so much flak for it.

[captain sawrge]

Thanks Helios for bringing up issues about someone that hasn't been admin for almost a year.

As a former admin I think leaving the decision of the next headmins solely up to adminbus is a poor idea.

[TheTerbs]

Thanks Helios for bringing up issues about someone that hasn't been admin for almost a year.

As a former admin I think leaving the decision of the next headmins solely up to adminbus is a poor idea.

Will you be my vice headmin sawrge. We can change everything

[Cipher3]

(lawyer, HoP, gaping void in job system that would be an Internal Affairs guy)

HoP was never supposed to get involved in Security, as far as I know. There's a page somewhere on the Wiki that talks about a ruling that Errorage made a long time ago that HoPs should strictly regulate and lord over Security, and it got overturned because frankly some parts of it were rather strange ideas.

Has the lawyer ever been consistently taken seriously as a defender of prisoners' rights, in any age of /tg/station?

[Apsis]

I wish I was in the business of making people out of straw.

Anyway, there's like around three worthwhile people on that list. Actually working together this time is key. Not just among the head admins either.

I'd like to hear/see more from Anton. I've seen him on Artyom a lot, so I'd like to know if he'd raise up the point of the difference between servers. In short, are you gonna use sweeping generalizations like I've been seeing?
Neerti/Pendarsanic would also fall under this question too.

[Helios127]

Thanks Helios for bringing up issues about someone that hasn't been admin for almost a year.

As a former admin I think leaving the decision of the next headmins solely up to adminbus is a poor idea.

Well, this is a serious question. What power does a Headmin hold?

[Hornygranny]

have coders vote for headmins :^)

Jokes aside, I think admins should vote for headmins for the same reason why coders should vote for headcoders: the playerbase only sees a fraction of what they really do and who they are.

(also if you like :^) remember that hg popularized it as an alternative to ))))))))))))))))) which was popularized by erro's passive-aggresive 's)

>hg popularized :^)
you have no idea what you're talking about do you?

He's right that specifically in this community I forced :^) pretty hard.

:^)

Well, this is a serious question. What power does a Headmin hold?

Ultimately, the real importance of the headmin is that they have the final word on admin matters. He has final say on what happens in an unban appeal, ban request, admin complaint, or in the trial admin process. I don't think they're particularly useful outside of that context, the admin team as a council can make decisions well enough.

[ColonicAcid]

you really didn't

[paprika]

This might be an unpopular opinion to have but he's easily one of the most qualified people on that list.

Too bad with player votes, how qualified someone is hardly fucking matters. Seriously, people in this thread should really be focusing more on HOW headmins are elected and stop shit flinging over 'the issues with the server' like it's some kind of political debate.

I'll say it one more time, NONE OF THAT SHIT WILL MATTER IF PLAYERS ARE IN CHARGE OF CHOOSING HEADMINS. THE MOST POPULAR ADMINS WILL BE MADE HEADMINS JUST LIKE LAST TIME BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE LITERALLY DO NOT GIVE A SINGLE FUCK ABOUT AN ADMIN'S COMPETENCE OR QUALIFICATIONS. IF YOU BANNED SOMEONE IN THE PAST MONTH, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR YOU. THIS IS NOT A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, IT IS A VIDEO GAME.

I'm not trying to undercut every single player and say that NOBODY has the experience or ability to make an educated vote for headmins here, but the VAST MAJORITY are not going to be up to speed with every admin's involvement in the server's administration like the other admins will. You can all argue about who's qualified, who would fix the server, or who would be hitler all you want, but it won't make a fucking SHRED of difference when it comes down to public vote, BECAUSE THIS EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED WHEN HBL, DEURYN, AND INTIGRACY WERE CHOSEN. THE EXACT SAME THING.

[miggles]

I've personally seen other HOP's give full access to mimes WITHOUT ANY PRIOR CONVERSATIONS or people pulling each other in the halls, or just in general, act friendly to people and give anything to those they know but hostile to those they dont.

ban. them. problem solved.

[paprika]

>someone does their job wrong
>'what are we supposed to do?!??!?'

[Neerti]

For the question of 'what are your definitions of power/metagaming', it's probably one of the hardest questions an admin has to answer, but yet must come up with some kind of definition, even if it's just mirroring the policy. As such, I have 'three' definitions of both. The first is what I want the definition to be. The second is a more 'realistic' definition that would be more accepted with the public, and the third is the current policy.
The first I simply wish could be true, I wish that roleplay was a more prominent feature of the game, but wishing doesn't get anything done, and if I were able to actually achieve this dream, it would probably alienate a large portion of the players and kill the server, due to the methods to achieve my ideal, so it's merely a dream.
The second is a compromise of the first and current policy and the playerbase. I have written a draft of some of this, that you can find in the policy subforum.
The third is based on current policy interpretation. I only use the third, and my judgement, for admin matters, as personal opinions and wishes should not cloud up a ruling.
To give a rather broad and not very useful (but perhaps a very accurate) definition of a 'powergamer', would be a 'munchkin', which has it's roots in tabletop games (and so does /tg/).

In tabletop games like DnD, usually all the players and the GM are there to participate in a game, with the agreement that everyone was there to have fun, role-playing with their characters and overcoming obstacles that come up. The Munchkin is a 'type' of player that tries to 'win' at the game, where 'winning' isn't the goal or point of the game. They often do this by 'min-maxing' I need those gloves, toolbelt, armor, taser, and of course my cardbord helmet, in-case any xenos show up, 'rules lawyering' It doesn't say that I CAN'T check the AI's laws every two minutes for no reason., 'metagaming' Obvious. You can draw a ton of parallels from munchkins to powergamers, and they're basically the same, just one inhabits a different medium.

So, technically you get a definition, but it's not very useful, since everyone here is basically a munchkin to some degree. So the 'line' for metagaming for the server has been hazy, as everyone has their interpretations on how far is 'too much', which changes over time as new rulings are made, the playerbase changes, etc. Defining your own standard for power/metagaming is just adding another drop in a sea of opinions. So me stating my opinion on meta/powergaming (they're basically the same thing as metagaming is a symptom of powergaming) wouldn't be useful, I believe. What -is- useful is to put the server's needs before my opinion. I have attempted a draft of policy which still needs serious work, but if you read though it, you should see how it tries to create a balance of 'new, anti-powergamy' things and try to keep the status quo intact, in an attempt to make it easy to adopt. From the future, you can move towards more 'anti-powergamy' rules if it is successful.

But that's all just theory, and the question remains unanswered, so perhaps the best way to answer is to give three answers, in the same format as my three definitions.
1. Powergaming is when you attempt to 'win' at the game at the detriment of other players. (This fails as everyone does this, even me (I'm guilty of the captain-insulated glove thing))
2. Powergaming is when you use a game mechanic that admins have deemed to violate 'fair play' and kills fun for the other players. (In theory this is what it is now. This fails due to 1. Humans decide what is/isn't 'fair play' and humans being humans, we're not logical. 2. Writing down what is 'fair play' will result in a book that dwarfs a law book. 3. What is 'fair play' can change and the huge law book of fair play has to be updated. 4. If you don't use a definitive definition on what is/is not 'fair play' but instead use case by case studies, you run into 'what is meta?'. If you do a combo of 'law book' and 'case by case', it might be better as that's my intention with my new policy ideas, as the rules also act as guidelines for admins (or at least they should), but who knows.)
3. Powergaming is a buzz word, used for or against people who violate their perceived standard. (This is basically how it is at this current state)

I'm sorry if those are poor definitions but the question is already hard to answer in a good way.

As for the metagangs (this is more of a rant, so apologies),
Adminbus, I'm sorry, but you're really misinformed. Yes, there is a problem, but you don't know the intricacies, the numbers, the whos, the whens, and most importantly the proofs. You need information to act on before you can do the purge, the crusades, the culling, the whatever dramatic act of removing problem players from the server. When told in adminbus that 'the metagang on artyom is a problem', I couldn't facepalm harder.
THEY DON'T KNOW THERE IS MORE THEN ONE GROUP.
With that critical detail apparently missing, how could I know if they had vital information like whom, when, or even have proof when they apparently lacked hard data. Without such a thing, if you place bans on people for 'metacomming' or 'metafriending', be prepared for hell.
Most people don't know this, but I manually make spreadsheets on admin activity every month (which is technically 30 days every month because easy). It not only covers if an admin logged in at least once on a particular day, but which servers they tend to log in the most.
I calculated the percentage of 'coverage' that is spent across the servers, and here are a few pictures.
is May's percentage. The first slot is sybil, second is basil, third is artyom. This isn't surprising due to how sybil has lots of players, so it's only logical that lots of admins go there too.
Here's June's coverage, as well.
The issue comes up when people who don't admin artyom try to handle artyom issues without information or context (This generally happens to anyone who tries to handle a big issue but not knowing the intricacies) The solution isn't to merely 'ban the asses'. They'll only get appealed a month later and the other metafrienders will become harder to catch.
I have big plans for trying to solve the metagangs, but I don't wish to show my hand too early. All that I will say is that I vow to do my best to handle all of the server's problems. I can't guarantee I fix them (I likely can't), but I will try.

Random Appearances will just cause tensions and (rightful) criticisms towards the administration, as it's a blanket solution to a nonblanket problem. It's the nuclear option for metagang elimination, and I'd rather avoid the fallout (yay metaphor), especially when it doesn't even need to be used.

[miggles]

neerti, those percentages are exactly the same
is that a coincidence or

[Kelenius]

is May's percentage. The first slot is sybil, second is basil, third is artyom. This isn't surprising due to how sybil has lots of players, so it's only logical that lots of admins go there too.
Here's June's coverage, as well.

Uh, what

It's a same picture.

[Neerti]

I made an oopsie.

I'll fix that now.
-edit- Also the significance isn't really in the difference between months, but the distribution between servers.

[Subtle]

Paprika, for once in my life I'm completely lost on something nice to say. I'm going to do the most stupid* thing and respond directly.

In the words of some of my more abrasive colleagues, please fuck off. There's no point to arguing how an election that's not happening the way you insist shouldn't be happening the way you insist. The people whose opinion consists of nothing more than "fuck you" are being, and should be, disregarded. Neerti and Pandar have answered a few questions and between the insulting interjections and slight derailing we've managed to identify a few issues people feel strongly about. That's what our Headmins are signing up to "fix". (much as they can) We all saw how the previous elections have failed. Everyone was there. You don't need to scream about how badly they did. There is, at present, no public vote!

The ONLY thing that matters is who's qualified and who's going to be a problem solver. Who's good for the server.
If you don't care about those things you've got your priorities twelve kinds of wrong and honestly don't deserve any sort of say.

We're having a (relatively) civil discussion and I'd appreciate your leaving that be so we don't have a repeat of the last thread.

/thread and career suicide

*I can't English properly today.

[Psyentific]

If you forced random names/appearances for a week, I'd stop playing. Well, I haven't logged on for the last month, but y'know. I'm not going to be a pretentious ass and say I put a ton of thought and time and effort into my character, because let's face it - I'm a shitty roleplayer and I'm only in-character half the time anyway. But I know John Doe gets shit done, I know Christina Mordhauser is war crimes incarnate. I know Acheron-7 is dependable and competent, I know Paxton Gadow likes the ladies. I enjoy throwing on some foppiness and maybe a poofy hat and being Lady Dame Captain Lyra Alexander Ikari Kerensky Steiner-Davion II, Heir to the Duchy of Hesperus II, Dame-Errant of the Order of the Silver Gryphon, Commanding Officer, NTSS-13 'Artyom'

I'll be the first to admit that a lot of the so-called role-players, myself included, don't put a lot of effort in. However, we're all defined characters that we have some level of attachment to. We've each got our own reputation, our own contacts, our own circles of trusted allies, inept buffoons, and malicious grifons. Honestly, if it was up to me? I'd remove random name/body entirely and port Bay's examine character descriptions. Forcing random is forcing your playstyle on me, and I do not enjoy that. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater man.

[Psyentific]

>someone does their job wrong
>'what are we supposed to do?!??!?'

Jobban he. Seriously, I wish we could hand out jobbans, even wrist-slap one-round jobbans for chronic ineptitude. If there's no power at 20m in, blanket jobbans for engineering. If the HoP gives someone captain-level access without a conversation or a good reason, jobban he. If the Captain can't grab the disk, jobban. If Sec can't tell you why someone's in the brig, jobban he. If the QM isn't going to order anyone's crates, jobban he. If the chemist is fucking off with a belt full of chloral and a backpack full of thermite, jobban he. Geneticist, superpowers, candy. RD, Borgs, blown 4nr, fuck why not chef, nofood.

A jobban is the lightest punishment you can give, especially if it's something trivial like an hour long. I'm not saying incompetence is a big issue here, because this is TGS and we're all pretty robust. But if we laid out the basic responsibilities of each job and said "This is what you're expected to do", we'd have a lot less of it.


Edit:

Powergaming...Eh. I would call the line at being obtrusive and/or going out of your way; Limit yourself to things your job has by default, or can easily obtain.

Taking the case of insulated gloves and tools, I'd expect an engineer to have them. I wouldn't bat an eye if an Atmo Tech had them, but an MD or a chemist? No. The line between skill and munchkin is when you become obnoxious or obtrusive, especially if it's consistent.