Should we treat flashing roundstart as an antag tell

[Archie700]

Should roundstart flashing of one person be treated as an antag tell for BB or Rev?

And should the flashed person be round removed for it as well?

[TheBibleMelts]

flashes are items available in several parts of the station, and the purpose of several antags using them is so that they have a non-antag coded way to complete parts of their work without being immediately valid-hunted.

they should not be an instant "valid under rule 4" checkmark if you catch someone using one.

[TypicalRig]

the only time it's an antag tell is if you are 100% certain you saw someone get stunned by one when facing away from the flasher. i forget if this happens with blood brothers, but rev heads can flash people from behind. but if you go solely based off of this and are wrong then rip.

[Vekter]

I think it's a valid reason to search the person, but absolutely not valid to assume they're an antag (and thus kill them). Flashes can be found in all manner of places, and the only time that I would count this as actually acting like an antag would be if you were screaming VIVA or actively trying to incite a revolution.

the only time it's an antag tell is if you are 100% certain you saw someone get stunned by one when facing away from the flasher. i forget if this happens with blood brothers, but rev heads can flash people from behind. but if you go solely based off of this and are wrong then rip.

This is meta knowledge and shouldn't be used on either LRP or MRP.

[iamgoofball]

This is meta knowledge and shouldn't be used on either LRP or MRP.

don't we literally display unique text to the viewers when an over-the-shoulder flash occurs

[iwishforducks]

This is meta knowledge and shouldn't be used on either LRP or MRP.

i know for a fact in lrp you're allowed to know everything:

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists

of course, if you're wrong, then eat hot shit. better be right about it.

but i dont know exactly what rule would stop you from knowing this in mrp. other than maybe deal with bad-guys in proportions to their crimes?

[Vekter]

This is meta knowledge and shouldn't be used on either LRP or MRP.

don't we literally display unique text to the viewers when an over-the-shoulder flash occurs

I don't know, possibly? I've never witnessed it.

This is meta knowledge and shouldn't be used on either LRP or MRP.

i know for a fact in lrp you're allowed to know everything:

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists

of course, if you're wrong, then eat hot shit. better be right about it.

but i dont know exactly what rule would stop you from knowing this in mrp. other than maybe deal with bad-guys in proportions to their crimes?

I feel like "know everything about ingame mechanics" is meant to refer to things like what antags can do and how their powers work, not "This person did a thing that literally only exists in OOC logic but indicates they're an antag, so they're an antag". It would be like if you were somehow able to see an antag symbol next to someone's name and your stated reason IC for thinking they were one was "I saw the big 'T' next to their head". It's not really relevant to the thread and I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

[TheRex9001]

Flashes shouldnt be an instant valid thats stupid. A flash is enough to get suspicious but it shouldnt just be "he flash dust him"

[Jacquerel]

If you see someone flash someone else for absolutely no reason that's reasonable cause to be extremely suspicious about them, maybe even detain them and subject them to anti-revolutionary techniques just to be safe.
If you heard about someone flashing someone else or just have the idea that it's possible that they might have done so and as a result of this you kill them and destroy their body you're a loser who should just go play among us.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I feel like "know everything about ingame mechanics" is meant to refer to things like what antags can do and how their powers work, not "This person did a thing that literally only exists in OOC logic but indicates they're an antag, so they're an antag". It would be like if you were somehow able to see an antag symbol next to someone's name and your stated reason IC for thinking they were one was "I saw the big 'T' next to their head". It's not really relevant to the thread and I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

That seems... weird to on the one hand say "No, the rule is just for knowing how antags and their powers work" then immediately saying "But if you know how head revs ability to flash people who are looking away from them works, you're metagaming and its ooc logic."

[DaBoss]

Flashes are a defence tool for station-aligned crew, like batons except with a bunch of drawbacks. They're designed as a tool for allowing people to give a short stun without relying on RNG disarm knockdowns (back when we had them) so they can escape pursuers while being not strong enough for arresting people (this was back before floorpushing made this possible), and nearly unusable on heads or security due to the sunglasses weakness. Seeing them be regulated to antagonist tools only would be a sad loss of flavour.

[Capsandi]

That directional flash change made flashes as reliable as a wet sock. Though, even before it I hadn't seen anyone use flashes except for borg combat in a while. If you want conversion mechanics to have an alibi, either flashes need to be more popular in ambient scuffles, or they need to be moved off flashes. I also think the current state of flashes devalues sunglasses somewhat, which is not ideal.

[MooCow12]

No, as soon as we treat generic flashes as an antag tell we start losing the ability to use flashes for other purposes

If you see someone flashing someone else out of nowhere with no obvious escalation thats one thing but hearing it without even seeing the context and assuming conversion is starting to go into really dark territory

(why you can hear flash through walls is an issue of its own maybe someone should test merge that out to see how it impacts the game, it might make conversion antags op)

[Vekter]

No, as soon as we treat generic flashes as an antag tell we start losing the ability to use flashes for other purposes

If you see someone flashing someone else out of nowhere with no obvious escalation thats one thing but hearing it without even seeing the context and assuming conversion is starting to go into really dark territory

(why you can hear flash through walls is an issue of its own maybe someone should test merge that out to see how it impacts the game, it might make conversion antags op)

This. I think it's a valid reason to be suspicious or concerned if you hear a flash, but you shouldn't act like there's immediately an antagonist in your vicinity.

E: I can't remember if I said this before, but I'm ONLY referring to flashing. No other behavior involved in a possible revolution. If someone is flashing *and* yelling about a revolution or flashing everyone they come across without those people wanting to stop them, that's a pretty solid tell. The play should still be to try and arrest them (I detest gunning non-hostile antags down in the hall because you saw them whip out an emag, don't be That Guy, I will bonk you for it), but if that's not possible, do what you gotta do.

[DaydreamIQ]

Its usually pretty easy to tell when someone does a rev flash because they pull it off from behind, or you hear the telltale sound of someone flashing followed by the shuffling of trying to get them back up off the floor

[dendydoom]

i'll say straight away that it's a grey area in policy that i'm a little hesitant to scrub away. personally i've always found it an interesting dynamic of the interaction with flashes where it's an innocent object that becomes a tell for a pretty serious antag in certain contexts. trying to deduce whether it's being used by a hapless victim trying to get away from an attacker or a dangerous revolutionary is part of the challenge, and the risk involved in that is ensuring that your deduction removes enough doubt for it to be a comfortable decision.

lots of players' mindsets around this are that they're convinced they've seen an antag, they're just looking for more to support what they think they already know. this is quite oppositional to how admins rule on the situation, which is that you should act out of uncertainty up until the point that you have enough evidence that you become convinced.

[Vekter]

i'll say straight away that it's a grey area in policy that i'm a little hesitant to scrub away. personally i've always found it an interesting dynamic of the interaction with flashes where it's an innocent object that becomes a tell for a pretty serious antag in certain contexts. trying to deduce whether it's being used by a hapless victim trying to get away from an attacker or a dangerous revolutionary is part of the challenge, and the risk involved in that is ensuring that your deduction removes enough doubt for it to be a comfortable decision.

lots of players' mindsets around this are that they're convinced they've seen an antag, they're just looking for more to support what they think they already know. this is quite oppositional to how admins rule on the situation, which is that you should act out of uncertainty up until the point that you have enough evidence that you become convinced.

I agree with this (shocker), but I also feel like it shouldn't be considered a guaranteed tell that someone is an antag.

Archie can correct me, but I believe the specific context here is whether or not flashing someone at roundstart is enough of a confirmation that someone is an antag (or "acting like an antagonist") for rule 4 to kick in. The consensus thus far in the thread seems to be "No, but it's sus as fuck and you can arrest people/bash them on the head for doing it".

With the exception of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, or spawn-camping arrivals, solo antagonists may pursue any goals they wish, in any way they wish. Crewmembers are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder, or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable cause to do so. Otherwise, they may handle antagonists in any way they wish, provided they understand that their actions may be punished by Space Law if given IC cause. Team antagonists can do as they wish as per lone antagonists, but their actions should neither harm their teams efforts, nor intentionally harm it through inaction. Emulating an antagonist by action or outfit puts you at risk of being treated as one.

Relevant parts bolded.

E: I talked to Archie on Discord, he said I'm basically correct here, this is explicitly in the context of Rule 4.

[Screemonster]

honestly I've always been on team "there should be more options for conversion tools so it isn't a flash every single time" the same way that uplinks have different options but I'm unsure what the alternative item should be besides something you might reasonably scrounge out of tech storage or whatever and thus have plausible deniability for having it in your pocket

[Higgin]

this seems like an instance where RPR 4 and 6 would be useful to limit the harns we're concerned about: preemptive attack and overpunishment.

even if you think somebody's been converted, it doesn't become a reason to kill them on its own on MRP. there are less-restrictive options which should be pursued in the handling of a situation where there should be more than a little doubt - RPR6, treat the bad guys in proportion to their actual crimes.

RPR4 covers not jumping them as non-security until they've actually done something to deserve it - this isn't to say 'don't intervene on people trying to attack you or others with a flash' - which is a perfectly viable way of going off after people to harm them and not a remotely perfect antag tell - but it is a way to say that, once they've been converted to a non-global, restricted antagonist, it's not necessary to immediately go in for the kill (even if you call security or otherwise out/avoid/take precautions against them with justified belief they might get up to bad shit.)

[Archie700]

i'll say straight away that it's a grey area in policy that i'm a little hesitant to scrub away. personally i've always found it an interesting dynamic of the interaction with flashes where it's an innocent object that becomes a tell for a pretty serious antag in certain contexts. trying to deduce whether it's being used by a hapless victim trying to get away from an attacker or a dangerous revolutionary is part of the challenge, and the risk involved in that is ensuring that your deduction removes enough doubt for it to be a comfortable decision.

lots of players' mindsets around this are that they're convinced they've seen an antag, they're just looking for more to support what they think they already know. this is quite oppositional to how admins rule on the situation, which is that you should act out of uncertainty up until the point that you have enough evidence that you become convinced.

To be clear this is specifically on the case of flashing within 5 minutes of roundstart and at all levels of RP = instant kill

And killing the flashed as well

-snip-

I'm referring to all levels, this is not MRP-specific, RPR doesn't do anything for LRP

This isn't a matter of whether flashing can be investigated, this is a matter of whether flashing alone within 5 minutes of roundstart can be regarded as literally denoting antag.

This is with the caveat that you can't convert your target as BB

[Higgin]

To be clear this is specifically on the case of flashing within 5 minutes of roundstart and at all levels of RP = instant kill

And killing the flashed as well

-snip-

I'm referring to all levels, this is not MRP-specific, RPR doesn't do anything for LRP

This isn't a matter of whether flashing can be investigated, this is a matter of whether flashing alone within 5 minutes of roundstart can be regarded as literally denoting antag.

This is with the caveat that you can't convert your target as BB

yeah I get that we're talking more broadly here - I was more musing that this is a solved problem in the RP ruleset and might lead us to question some of the value of the main rules being relatively lean in this area.

for the purposes of LRP, while I personally don't think I'd feel comfortable going in for the kill at 5 minutes even if I was pretty damn sure they were BBs and not a headrev/rev, I see two ways forward administratively:

1. if you have sincere justified belief they're an antag, you can take the risk of kicking a landmine/banmine of killing them and being wrong. this is in keeping with Rule 1 (not killing people FNR) and Rule 4 (do what you will with antags once they've started antagging) and in practice points towards people being more conservative with their decision to leap before an antag has actually done more to confirm their status.

2. even if you think they're an antag, we can say "wait until they've done something more than flash/convert, even if you're right," and ban on the intent to preemptively hurt/hunt antags before their existence is confirmed or they've taken real action. this is also in keeping with RPR4, though I'd argue the difference is that when somebody flashes somebody else to convert them, they have started to act as an antagonist.

I think we can and probably in practice do both, but I find 2 to be a much weaker line of argument and a weird line to draw around roundstart flashing in particular - it overlaps with real concerns about rev conversion, and it is dispositive of antag status, even if a lot of uses of flashes are not.

A way around this code-wise might be to just remove the whole involuntary flashing angle of BB conversion and do what Bay did for its conversion antags like rev a long time ago: make it a verb, have it give the target a popup/chat link to be inobtrusive, have the target opt in or opt out.

Then, if they say no and "JOHN MADDEN IS BB. KILL!!!" there's no smoking gun/burnt-out flash that potentially results in (or is used to validate) both the starting + converted BB getting killed at 5 minutes by everyone on the block. The target might be in the clear to start swinging, but the scope of the justifiable conflict is limited from "anyone who thought they heard a flash in the next room." tl;dr make it much harder to suspect or prove BB status off conversion alone.

Is it valid to kill within 5m of roundstart on LRP? yes, it can be, but it's not a great situation and could be improved. I have nothing against roundstart conversion - it's not NRP/bad-faith play to try to get your team rolling early, it's just playing the antag.

I would not consider it preemptive hindering to kill somebody after converting if you're damn certain of it. I'd consider it preemptive hindering to be doing roundstart random searches looking for anybody with an intact flash to be then killing them before they've so much as breathed.

[dendydoom]

1. if you have sincere justified belief they're an antag, you can take the risk of kicking a landmine/banmine of killing them and being wrong. this is in keeping with Rule 1 (not killing people FNR) and Rule 4 (do what you will with antags once they've started antagging) and in practice points towards people being more conservative with their decision to leap before an antag has actually done more to confirm their status.

2. even if you think they're an antag, we can say "wait until they've done something more than flash/convert, even if you're right," and ban on the intent to preemptively hurt/hunt antags before their existence is confirmed or they've taken real action. this is also in keeping with RPR4, though I'd argue the difference is that when somebody flashes somebody else to convert them, they have started to act as an antagonist.

1 is generally how players feel toward it and 2 is generally how administrators will rule on it. one common thought that came up while discussing this was the idea that their antag status shouldn't matter at all, only what they did that the other player could use to deduce their antag status beyond a shadow of a doubt.

like you said, this is much more of a solved problem on mrp, because we expect the crew to limit their response to a restricted antagonist who hasn't actually done anything yet. if we were to enforce the rules as written on lrp, then it would rely on rule 4 to essentially say that the choice to engage an antag is on you and you'd better be correct in your assumptions, because you will be banned if not.

is this ideal? i personally think it's vastly inferior to how we view it on mrp, and my rather quiet approach to this thread has been in the hopes that my more lrp-inclined comrades could give their viewpoints and experiences. the crux of the matter is whether or not hearing/seeing a flash within the first few minutes of a round is, as per rule 4, "reasonable cause" to seek conflict with a supposed antagonist.

i will be the first headmin to say that i don't think it is. however, as i said, i don't play lrp very often and i would appreciate more input in this regard. i get the sense that someone copping a ban for killing someone in this situation would be received differently by the community depending whether or not the person was actually an antagonist, despite what some admins may feel.

[Timberpoes]

On both LRP and MRP the key has always been the player having a justification for why they thought a player was an antag that would satisfy the admin in question.

The only reason it differs on MRP is because there is a second question to be asked after that about proportionality. But the starting point is always - on MRP or LRP - do you have a good and valid justification for treating them like an antag? That question has to be answered first on all our servers.

Accordingly, this isn't actually a very difficult or deep question. The answer is the same on both servers. And we can answer by process of elimination with one simple question posited by the OP. Does a roundstart flash on its own constitute enough of an antag tell to invoke Rule 4 validity? Yes or no.

Is there no reasonable situation where a player roundstart flashing another player is anything but acting like an antag? Then the answer is yes.

Otherwise, are there reasonable situations where a player roundstart flashing another player is anything but acting like an antag? Then the answer is no.

If the answer is no, then that doesn't mean the player may not be suspected of being an antag. We have plenty of suspicious things players can do that can trigger an arrest and search or prompt some deeper investigation which could reveal their antag status - like breaking and entering.

And I think the really leads me cleanly to my own conclusion. Roundstart flashing can support the suspicion that a person is an antag, but it is not in and of itself conclusive proof without supporting evidence - which the act of flashing itself may be IC reason to try and search for supporting evidence.

Validity of people flashed roundstart follows similar logic. Any reasonable situation where a player may be flashed roundstart and not have been converted? Yes or no. Follow the same flow chart as above.

[Archie700]

-snip-

I genuinely feel that 1 is worse than 2, not only do you run the risk of killing a nonantag, people are conditioned on LRP to ahelp at the end of the round (or even don't by that time) because roundstart RR is usually very clear antag action.

(Telling people to ahelp after being killed doesn't work, not everyone immediately thinks oh that guy killed me he is breaking the rules)

It's even worse if you decide to kill the flashee with the flasher. If the flashing is to be taken as an confirmed antag tell in itself since it converts people, then the flashee is technically also an antag and can be round removed.

Not to mention there are ways for the BB to flash someone without converting them (can't convert targets, the flasher has another ordinary flash)

[Vekter]

(Telling people to ahelp after being killed doesn't work, not everyone immediately thinks oh that guy killed me he is breaking the rules)

Off Topic

To be fair, LRP has this thing where they just outright do not want to adminhelp things because I think they've gotten it in their heads that doing so is going to lead to some big fucking production of a ticket. That and they would just rather handle things themselves. It's something I want to help break the habit of for some people but most folks just refuse to talk to us when something goes wrong on Sybil or Terry.

[Higgin]

-snip-

I genuinely feel that 1 is worse than 2, not only do you run the risk of killing a nonantag, people are conditioned on LRP to ahelp at the end of the round (or even don't by that time) because roundstart RR is usually very clear antag action.

(Telling people to ahelp after being killed doesn't work, not everyone immediately thinks oh that guy killed me he is breaking the rules)

It's even worse if you decide to kill the flashee with the flasher. If the flashing is to be taken as an confirmed antag tell in itself since it converts people, then the flashee is technically also an antag and can be round removed.

Not to mention there are ways for the BB to flash someone without converting them (can't convert targets, the flasher has another ordinary flash)

to be clear: I agree. this state of affairs is worse for everyone. my code suggestions are in the interest of getting us somewhere we don't have to worry about scenario #1 proceeding naturally from the rules and nature of play. everything you've marked up is good reason to want the situation to change because I get the impression that it happens more often than it should:

somebody hears a flash, finds two probable BBs, and the story is quickly over - even if they had a lot more to cook that could've made the round a lot more interesting for all involved.

unfortunately, our ability to enact #2 - asking people to chill and withdraw to a position of reasonable gullibility even when they're fully-convinced they've got antags on their hands - butts up against revs (at least for treating the flash as suspicious enough to investigate seriously,) Rule 4's free license for antags to fuck you up if you don't want to fuck them up first, and the license to fuck them up off of status before actions.

just because flashes can be used for many other things doesn't mean that they are in any one setting. if i follow the conversation here, we're willing to validate suspicion (searches, implants, watching people closely after a suspected conversion) but not go so far as to say the flash alone is dispositive of antag status, but it's never just the flash -

which kicks us back into the practical dilemma of #1. i don't know what we're looking for here if not changing the facts of BB conversion - some sort of enforced grace period at roundstart? a new caveat to sec policy or the preemptive hindering clause of Rule 4 that suspected conversion alone shouldn't go to the conclusion of antag status unless it can be hard-confirmed (i.e. mindshield?) a change in enforcement to reflect that without a rule change?

I share Dendy's desire to get more LRP voices and feelings on how this shakes out and what feels better - I almost wonder if an in-game poll might not be a good idea to gauge "should flash conversion alone be grounds for considering someone an antag?"

[Archie700]

-snip-

I genuinely feel that 1 is worse than 2, not only do you run the risk of killing a nonantag, people are conditioned on LRP to ahelp at the end of the round (or even don't by that time) because roundstart RR is usually very clear antag action.

(Telling people to ahelp after being killed doesn't work, not everyone immediately thinks oh that guy killed me he is breaking the rules)

It's even worse if you decide to kill the flashee with the flasher. If the flashing is to be taken as an confirmed antag tell in itself since it converts people, then the flashee is technically also an antag and can be round removed.

Not to mention there are ways for the BB to flash someone without converting them (can't convert targets, the flasher has another ordinary flash)

to be clear: I agree. this state of affairs is worse for everyone. my code suggestions are in the interest of getting us somewhere we don't have to worry about scenario #1 proceeding naturally from the rules and nature of play. everything you've marked up is good reason to want the situation to change because I get the impression that it happens more often than it should:

somebody hears a flash, finds two probable BBs, and the story is quickly over - even if they had a lot more to cook that could've made the round a lot more interesting for all involved.

unfortunately, our ability to enact #2 - asking people to chill and withdraw to a position of reasonable gullibility even when they're fully-convinced they've got antags on their hands - butts up against revs (at least for treating the flash as suspicious enough to investigate seriously,) Rule 4's free license for antags to fuck you up if you don't want to fuck them up first, and the license to fuck them up off of status before actions.

just because flashes can be used for many other things doesn't mean that they are in any one setting. if i follow the conversation here, we're willing to validate suspicion (searches, implants, watching people closely after a suspected conversion) but not go so far as to say the flash alone is dispositive of antag status, but it's never just the flash -

which kicks us back into the practical dilemma of #1. i don't know what we're looking for here if not changing the facts of BB conversion - some sort of enforced grace period at roundstart? a new caveat to sec policy or the preemptive hindering clause of Rule 4 that suspected conversion alone shouldn't go to the conclusion of antag status unless it can be hard-confirmed (i.e. mindshield?) a change in enforcement to reflect that without a rule change?

I share Dendy's desire to get more LRP voices and feelings on how this shakes out and what feels better - I almost wonder if an in-game poll might not be a good idea to gauge "should flash conversion alone be grounds for considering someone an antag?"

It doesn't butt up against revs because revs have a very different thing in that there's an actual tell - implanting them with loyalty either deconverts them or they resist it.

Also by the time revs are known it's definitely a big indicator that you're a revhead if you're flashing people

[Higgin]

-snip-

snab

snoy

:DDDD

it does butt up against them because part of the impetus for the initial callout is knowing that if you hear flashing, there may be revs just as well as BB.

you can rule out revs once the callout has been made - even by kicking in the heads of the two people suspected with a little rng on your side (forced deconversion on non-heads from head injury) - but that still loops you back to "is the flashing/burnt-out flash enough to go on at this point?" BB flashes die after use.

this is antag knowledge people are not restricted from using currently in making their calls about status.

[TheRex9001]

To me, hearing a flash isnt enough to make someone valid. If you see someone flash someone else once and the flash instantly burns out its very fucking suspect or if there is a guy running around flashing fucking everyone its valid. People are not prohibited from making calls about antag status but a flash isnt enough to call it out because its a common enough tool that you can print in bulk from the roboticist or snag from tech storage. I don't really want us to make policy that morphs a crew weapon into an instant valid sign.

[Archie700]

-snip-

snab

snoy

:DDDD

kill

This is still not a reason to immediately kill the guy. It should never be a case of "he flash, kill" when you don't know what's going on (which is usually the case at roundstart)

Reasonable gullibility does not mean "you must always let them off", you can arrest them (even if you're not security) if they are doing it for "no reason" and search them, or even go to sec to loyalty implant them.

[SkeletalElite]

Just having a flash isn't enough but IMO just randomly flashing someone out of the blue especially if just suddenly leave the person you flashed alone is extremely convincing evidence that you're a rev and is getting you mindshielded at best and killed at worst and you have basically no recourse to ahelp it because you are either A)100% an antag or B) you were faking rev which is textbook acting like an antag AND against the rules. Cases of flashes being used early in the round that aren't revs (or faking) are usually very obvious non conversion uses of flashes because there is no easily justifiable IC reason to flash someone a single time and walk away from them or help them up. You're pretty much always gonna be flashing them multiple times for the stam crit then either taking something off them or dragging them somewhere.

At the end of the day the flash is a stun weapon and if you are randomly stunning people that is acting like an antag.

[MooCow12]

if you are randomly stunning people that is acting like an antag.

[Vekter]

Just having a flash isn't enough but IMO just randomly flashing someone out of the blue especially if just suddenly leave the person you flashed alone is extremely convincing evidence that you're a rev and is getting you mindshielded at best and killed at worst and you have basically no recourse to ahelp it because you are either A)100% an antag or B) you were faking rev which is textbook acting like an antag AND against the rules. Cases of flashes being used early in the round that aren't revs (or faking) are usually very obvious non conversion uses of flashes because there is no easily justifiable IC reason to flash someone a single time and walk away from them or help them up. You're pretty much always gonna be flashing them multiple times for the stam crit then either taking something off them or dragging them somewhere.

At the end of the day the flash is a stun weapon and if you are randomly stunning people that is acting like an antag.

I cannot speak for any other admin, but if you're executing someone solely on the basis of them having flashed someone at roundstart with zero other evidence, I'm probably going to take the side of the person flashing people. I'm okay with you arresting and mindshielding them, maybe popping them on the head a few times, that's perfectly fine. You should not be executing someone on sight for only flashing someone at roundstart.

Now, mind you, if they're truly just doing it to fuck around, they will probably also get yelled at.

[SkeletalElite]

Just having a flash isn't enough but IMO just randomly flashing someone out of the blue especially if just suddenly leave the person you flashed alone is extremely convincing evidence that you're a rev and is getting you mindshielded at best and killed at worst and you have basically no recourse to ahelp it because you are either A)100% an antag or B) you were faking rev which is textbook acting like an antag AND against the rules. Cases of flashes being used early in the round that aren't revs (or faking) are usually very obvious non conversion uses of flashes because there is no easily justifiable IC reason to flash someone a single time and walk away from them or help them up. You're pretty much always gonna be flashing them multiple times for the stam crit then either taking something off them or dragging them somewhere.

At the end of the day the flash is a stun weapon and if you are randomly stunning people that is acting like an antag.

I cannot speak for any other admin, but if you're executing someone solely on the basis of them having flashed someone at roundstart with zero other evidence, I'm probably going to take the side of the person flashing people. I'm okay with you arresting and mindshielding them, maybe popping them on the head a few times, that's perfectly fine. You should not be executing someone on sight for only flashing someone at roundstart.

Now, mind you, if they're truly just doing it to fuck around, they will probably also get yelled at.

Arresting and mindshielding is a very reasonable approach for secoff but if you're not sec you likely don't have the tools to arrest someone and if you see someone get randomly flashed there's a very high probability you're next so getting the jump on them and killing them before they can get you might be your only choice if you have no flash protection.

edit: not the person who got flashed though, the person who got flashed isn't as much of a threat as the person with the flash, nor have they done anything to act like an antag, unless they suddenly start helping the guy who flashed them fight you.

[Vekter]

Arresting and mindshielding is a very reasonable approach for secoff but if you're not sec you likely don't have the tools to arrest someone and if you see someone get randomly flashed there's a very high probability you're next so getting the jump on them and killing them before they can get you might be your only choice if you have no flash protection.

edit: not the person who got flashed though, the person who got flashed isn't as much of a threat as the person with the flash, nor have they done anything to act like an antag, unless they suddenly start helping the guy who flashed them fight you.

If Sec shouldn't be outright killing someone for flashing somebody at roundstart, you sure as fuck shouldn't be.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If you see someone getting flashed at roundstart and think that they're actual revs, your #1 priority as anyone other than sec should be to run away and then start screaming on radio, not pull out the... weapon you apparently have and run at the apparent headrev.

You know, the person who can instantly turn you into a rev with a single click unless you're one of three non-sec crew roles who start with sunglasses.

[Maxipat]

I don't think we should discuss revolution here, it can't spawn before 15th minute (if I remember correctly) so roundstart flashes are "reserved" only for non-antags or BBs, as you can rule out revs just by looking at round time

[Diasyl]

Flashes became such a big antag tell because they are dogshit, no one would actually use a flash as it's too situational so a normal crew member would rather get their hands on any other kind of self defense weapon.
Even Seccies never use flashes really, outside of abusing moths.

[dendydoom]

the interaction of the flash as an antag tell is that it affords some semblance of plausible deniability. after deliberation, we believe that while hearing a flash can rightfully arouse suspicion, on its own it is not a full tell.

a little more evidence will be required. for example, if you hear a flash, walk into the room, and the person who got flashed doesn't take offense to that fact, or there is no obvious innocent explanation for it, then this becomes reasonable deduction because you gave more room to examine the situation. if you hear a flash, walk into the room and instantly delete the 2 people standing there, then this is not sufficient reasoning nor an appropriate level of investigation/deduction.

the difference being that the initial suspicion is supported by witnessing further suspicious behaviour. the more reasoning applied, the more lenience can be given on making a mistake.

finally, we find it to be too close to metagaming to use deductive reasoning such as "there wouldn't be enough time from roundstart for this person to get a flash from a spawn/print one from a lathe, therefore they spawned with it as an antagonist." there is too much reliance on ooc concepts in these cases.