[Skorvold] Security micromanagement

UtterNewbie · Post by **UtterNewbie** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:18 am #26620

Due to recent orders from skorvold telling me that I can't setup barricades because it's "powergaming" but dragging around beepsky isn't:

What can HoS / Warden do at round start to secure brig? What is too much and what is "powergaming" and what is "metagaming"?

Can I setup flashers?
Can I setup barricades?
Can I give out eguns to officers?
Can I give out armor to officers?
Can I actually use items in my department?

MedicInDisquise · Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:22 am

Security Player here.

Tough to put into words, but setting up barricades, flashers, etc is cool by me. Doing better then most wardens. Just make sure not to explicitly be looking to stomp dem antags.

Be careful with armor and eguns, if shitcurity missuses them then the ban request would probably be on your hands.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:24 am #26622

As far as I'm concerned:

Yes
No
Yes
Yes
hurr

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:27 am #26623

giving eguns out to the officers at roundstart FNR is gonna get you quickly labeled as a head of shitcurity, be forewarned.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:30 am #26625

To be honest, I typically end up setting up barricades near the maint/space/armoury entrances to the brig simply because I can't be expected to micromanage and guard every single entrance into the brig. I've never been warned about using barricades in this manner.

*EDIT*
Hell, I used to even set up barricades in more overt ways, such as setting it up in the main brig hallway to make it harder to run around in the brig, using that as well as portable flashers placed at strategic points. Never got warned about that ever.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:31 am #26626

Flashers only annoy the hell out of people who legitimately come into brig. They do little to stop criminals because they are handcuffed in they are inside, unless you fuck up.

Barriers apparently are not emaggable easily, we just got screwed by them in nuke ops. They can also block legitimate people.

The Armory

Securing the armory without in-round justification beyond "code blue" is considered metagaming, therefore forbidden.
Securing the armory includes:
Moving parts, or its entirety, to a locker or a/your backpack.
You may take a few guns for personal use, should you have access.
Hiding parts, or its entirety, elsewhere in an attempt to hide it.
Reinforcing it or its doors.
Ordering the AI to bolt it shut.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:32 am #26627

I'm sure you can emag barricades, you just have to be careful. If you emag it too many times you will permanently bolt it to the floor. You have to do it once or twice.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:39 am #26628

We emagged it and it didn't move. I dunno.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:43 am #26629

Well to give a list of what I've done, and never got in trouble for.

Setting up barricades by the maintenance/space entrances
Setting up barricades by the East armoury entrance
Setting up a portable flasher by the brig entrance (Contrary to popular belief, this can prove very useful)
Setting up a effective brig layout consisting of flashers, barricades and tables in the brig hallway.
Shuffling the armoury's layout to isolate the lethal weapons in the south-west corner, only easily accessible via the Warden's Office (Using the weapon racks)

Throughout the entire time I've every played as Security, I have never been reprimanded or warned about the brigs layout.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:49 am #26630

You have tobemag the barricade and then swipe any kind of Id on it. It removes the access restriction but not the need for an I'd swipe.

UtterNewbie · Post by **UtterNewbie** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:11 am #26631

Steelpoint wrote:Well to give a list of what I've done, and never got in trouble for.

Setting up barricades by the maintenance/space entrances

Setting up barricades by the East armoury entrance

Setting up a portable flasher by the brig entrance (Contrary to popular belief, this can prove very useful)

Setting up a effective brig layout consisting of flashers, barricades and tables in the brig hallway.

Shuffling the armoury's layout to isolate the lethal weapons in the south-west corner, only easily accessible via the Warden's Office (Using the weapon racks)
Throughout the entire time I've every played as Security, I have never been reprimanded or warned about the brigs layout.

That's just the thing, Skorvold is the only admin to ever message me about powergaming when I setup barricades. That's why I'm looking for input. This was the first time that it happened in the entire time I played and seen sec played.

I need a solid ruling on this so I have something to refer to.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Steelpoint wrote:Well to give a list of what I've done, and never got in trouble for.

Setting up barricades by the maintenance/space entrances

Setting up barricades by the East armoury entrance

Setting up a portable flasher by the brig entrance (Contrary to popular belief, this can prove very useful)

Setting up a effective brig layout consisting of flashers, barricades and tables in the brig hallway.

Shuffling the armoury's layout to isolate the lethal weapons in the south-west corner, only easily accessible via the Warden's Office (Using the weapon racks)
Throughout the entire time I've every played as Security, I have never been reprimanded or warned about the brigs layout.

I'd be a bit iffy about the last two. Particularly using tables as barricades. I'd have to see the reshuffled armory myself to comment on it but that doesn't sound great either.

But this stuff is pretty subjective anyway.

UtterNewbie · Post by **UtterNewbie** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:25 pm #26648

For reference server rules

Code: Select all

5. Don’t metagame. Do not ever use information, acquired out of character or through patterns or events your character would not be able to know, in game. 

Securing the armory without in-round justification beyond "code blue" is considered metagaming, therefore forbidden.

Securing the armory includes:
	Moving parts, or its entirety, to a locker or a/your backpack.
		You may take a few guns for personal use, should you have access.
	Hiding parts, or its entirety, elsewhere in an attempt to hide it.
	Reinforcing it or its doors.
	Ordering the AI to bolt it shut.

Notice it doesn't say anything about reinforcing brig. Which is what I do with barricades. I put them at brig entry points, not the armory so the only rule possibly applying here is 5.

As such I pose a question, what out of character information is being used here?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:32 pm #26649

Currently there is none, any justification for reinforcing the brig can be derived from the round-start "communications report" which indicates possible attack by syndicate, wizard or other forces.

There is the role play element of asking why the HoS is taking every single firearm out of the 'secure' armoury and stuffing it in his backpack, however I personally see no problem with a attentive or security concious Warden/HoS taking the effort to shore up the brigs defences,

It really depends on the extent these fortifications take, if the HoS is going down to Engineering and securing the shield generators, and going to the great effort of wiring up a extensive security grid throughout Security at round start with no provocation or real IC threat to do so, that would be poor form. However the HoS simply setting up a barricade in the maintenance entrance and tossing a portable flasher near the entrance would be acceptable.

Skorvold · Post by **Skorvold** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:53 pm #26650

Setting up barricades at round-start for no reason is unacceptable behavior and is preparing for something on the small whim that code blue is.

It's clear as crystal what you're trying to do by doing this, which is powergame and make sure you have every ready advantage to win a game that has no win condition.

"B-but other people have done it" is not an excuse either, I might not have noticed you unnecessarily reinforcing the brig the whole round if someone had not reported you. Throw up all the flashers and such that you want, but barricading it at roundstart without being provoked into doing so is against the rules. If you catch someone hacking your back door, throw one up on your weak points. If someone has broken into or attempted to break into the armory then move the guns.

In other words, don't prepare for something you shouldn't know about, assuming that Shitssistant McGriff is going to hack into Sec every round is meta.
Code Blue is not acceptable as IC reasoning for metaknowledge, and playing to win is almost explicitly against the rules. It's bad behavior, bad playstyle, and poorform.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:00 pm #26651

Brig Designer here. The brig is designed to allow a little reinforcement with flashers/barriers. Barricade count had been reduced, nimber of weak points had been increased, and flashers have been nerfed to discourage regular use in non-emergencies.

If we're going to start banning wardens who use these tools then I will have to consider buffing the brig through other means, which i think wouldn't make it as fun. The current brig allows for options for players. What's being suggested by skorvold is too selectively micromanagy for my liking.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:03 pm #26652

C4 costs 1 TC. Theoretically you can destroy ten fucking barricades now. I don't want to hear shit about how it's impossible for traitors to get past. If you're not a traitor, there are ways of hacking around it.

EDIT: If you're a nuke op and you're stopped by a fucking barricade you deserve your loss.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:04 pm #26653

Barricades will also break if you just hit them enough times.

peoplearestrange · Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:06 pm

I'm sorry but I have to say I ALWAYS ask the AI or a borg to bolt the maintaince shaft shut. The reason most people barrier that way is beacause its so easy for anyone to grab an emag and rush the armory at roundstart. This means the brig is left defenceless and wide open right from the start. Security rarely recovers from this inital "rush" tactic. Plus bolting doesn't actually stop access, someone could easily (under law 2) ask for an unbolt, or hack the door with a multitool. I understand the use of barriers is shitty. But then I always saw them as an emergency block, not a preventative measure. If anything the rules should allow the use of bolts and disallow barriers (accept in emergencies etc).

Also its a freakin brig! Why would any HoS/Warden worth his salt NOT ask for bolts on maintenance shafts. I get the idea of powergaming, but even basic security against known security risks (like emags) would surely have to be dealt with properly IC.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:14 pm #26657

Skorvold wrote:It's clear as crystal what you're trying to do by doing this, which is powergame and make sure you have every ready advantage to win a game that has no win condition.

This somehow only ever applies to security.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:26 pm #26658

What Ikarrus said is true, double so since I have also helped in designing the brig. Our current brig does have some areas of weakness there intentionally.

Simply put, unless the HoS is throwing all the guns out of perma, or something similar, I still support, and will continue to, reinforce the brig to a reasonable degree.

Reinforcing the brig to me is like setting up the singularity as the engineer, or setting up cryo. Entirely optional but you screw yourself over later if you don't do it.

*EDIT*
It also seems poor form to punish one form of powergaming harshly, yet ignore other forms. Engineers and Assistants with stun prods 'just in case', medical doctors with syringes full of crap (seem to hear a story on this every week) and many other examples of power gaming.

Perfectly fine, but when Security decides to throw a barricade and flasher down, suddenly its full force forward, ban that shit?

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:59 pm #26661

Steelpoint wrote:It also seems poor form to punish one form of powergaming harshly, yet ignore other forms. Engineers and Assistants with stun prods 'just in case', medical doctors with syringes full of crap (seem to hear a story on this every week) and many other examples of power gaming.

Sure, let's punish for that too.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:02 pm #26663

This should be made a policy discussion then as there appears to be know definitive answer on what is and isn't acceptable.

I'm happy with everything up to tables and rejiggering the armory

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:30 pm #26666

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:It also seems poor form to punish one form of powergaming harshly, yet ignore other forms. Engineers and Assistants with stun prods 'just in case', medical doctors with syringes full of crap (seem to hear a story on this every week) and many other examples of power gaming.
Sure, let's punish for that too.

Good luck with that. Engineers and assistants already bitch incessantly when security confiscates these (which is perfectly permissible under space law, illegal possession of weapons), and you're lucky if they don't immediately make more and kill you with them.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:20 pm #26670

Stickymayhem wrote:This should be made a policy discussion then as there appears to be know definitive answer on what is and isn't acceptable.

I'm happy with everything up to tables and rejiggering the armory

Funny thing is a year ago I got my inspiration for the tabeling the brig up from the wiki. There is a guide in the "Guide to Awsome Stuff" in the Security section detailing a bunch of suggestions in fortifying the brig. The one I used was, apparently, made by Malk.

Here's the image directly from the wiki: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/956 ... fbrig2.png

(Note: I've never used the emitter part of that plan, seems like too much work)

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:27 pm #26678

The Guide to Awesome Stuff section is literally just copy-pastes from the "little things that can be game-changing" thread, and I never really liked that it was made an official page.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:31 pm #26681

Taking away the permabrig soap for no reason should not be allowed.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:37 pm #26684

Scott wrote:Taking away the permabrig soap for no reason should not be allowed.

You guys seriously take away permabrig soap at the round start?

Holy shit.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:46 pm #26689

In my opinion, everything barring taking the soap, hoarding all the guns into your backpack, and asking the AI to bolt at roundstart should be allowed. As someone said earlier, reinforcing the brig isn't even comparable to making roundstart stunbatons. Even then, the latter isn't usually punishable because the cop-out excuse is always "self defense". Is that not what securing the brig is?

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:37 pm #26697

Everything but soap, gun hoarding, and tables seems fine to me. Barricades are easy for antags to deal with but hard for tiding shits to deal with.

Post by **Thunder11** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:14 am #26739

That brings up another question related to gun hoarding. Is it allowable to replace every officer's taser with an egun?

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:11 am #26749

Sure why not, they're being put to use.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:12 am #26750

Keep in mind that if your sec team starts dishing out summary executions via laser the responsibility is pretty much on your head as the HoS/Warden/Captain who gave them eguns.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:14 am #26751

Kangaraptor wrote:Keep in mind that if your sec team starts dishing out summary executions via laser the responsibility is pretty much on your head as the HoS/Warden/Captain who gave them eguns.

Why would it be? They could have just as easily executed via harmbaton, having a egun instead of a taser would not allow them to execute where they otherwise could not.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:24 am #26754

Aurx wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:Keep in mind that if your sec team starts dishing out summary executions via laser the responsibility is pretty much on your head as the HoS/Warden/Captain who gave them eguns.
Why would it be? They could have just as easily executed via harmbaton, having a egun instead of a taser would not allow them to execute where they otherwise could not.

A taser has:

less charge (afaik?)

one mode

a harmbaton has:

10 brute damage

the inability to be used at range

an egun has:

an inbuilt taser setting

more charge

the ability to murderize someone without standing anywhere near them

Is also a very robust item should a tatortot get their hands on one.

C'mon, are we really gonna do this, aurx? It's one thing for security to have tools from the get-go that allow for ghetto murder, but it's quite another to dole out dedicated killguns at the beginning of the round FNR and take no responsibility for your (if you're unlucky) dumbshit officers who kill people with the power of laseskull.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:38 am #26755

Yes, we are. Security is a protected role. They can be reasonably assumed to be trustworthy. There's no reason to blame someone for giving somebody something they can be reasonably expected not to misuse.
We do not blame HoPs for cargo staff they promote going full guncargonia. We do not blame miners for the roboticists/scientists making and abusing weapons with the minerals the miner provided. We do not blame roboticists for that MMI from a blown borg going on a rampage in a ripley. We do not blame engineering for setting up the singularity when a traitor releases it. We do not blame scientists for giving a miner a diamond drill that gets used to break into atmos and flood plasma.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:39 am #26756

Aurx wrote:Yes, we are. Security is a protected role. They can be reasonably assumed to be trustworthy. There's no reason to blame someone for giving somebody something they can be reasonably expected not to misuse.
We do not blame HoPs for cargo staff they promote going full guncargonia. We do not blame miners for the roboticists/scientists making and abusing weapons with the minerals the miner provided. We do not blame roboticists for that MMI from a blown borg going on a rampage in a ripley. We do not blame engineering for setting up the singularity when a traitor releases it. We do not blame scientists for giving a miner a diamond drill that gets used to break into atmos and flood plasma.

tl;dr it's okay to give eguns to murdersec because 'why not'

thanks aurx top quality admin work

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:29 am #26763

Kangaraptor wrote:
Aurx wrote:Yes, we are. Security is a protected role. They can be reasonably assumed to be trustworthy. There's no reason to blame someone for giving somebody something they can be reasonably expected not to misuse.
We do not blame HoPs for cargo staff they promote going full guncargonia. We do not blame miners for the roboticists/scientists making and abusing weapons with the minerals the miner provided. We do not blame roboticists for that MMI from a blown borg going on a rampage in a ripley. We do not blame engineering for setting up the singularity when a traitor releases it. We do not blame scientists for giving a miner a diamond drill that gets used to break into atmos and flood plasma.
tl;dr it's okay to give eguns to murdersec because 'why not'

thanks aurx top quality admin work

To be fair eguns are forty billion times better than tasers and more useful for general purpose things like breaking Windows and killing hulks, carps and slimes. There are plenty of non-antiantag reasons to want eguns.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:48 am #26765

What's wrong with: They're the warden's guns. The warden can do whatever the fuck they want with them, unless overruled by the HoS or Captain. If someone uses the guns to be shit they get a security ban. Christ, there's too much stupid restriction for things that can already be easily solved by banning shitlers.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:15 am #26776

I would think the guns would belong to the HoS and Captain. The Warden just looks after them. Hell, want to get technically you can say they belong to the corporation.

I think the general agreement is that barring the HoS tossing stuff out of the airlock, and the tables apparently, then anything else is fine.

I'm also wondering where the 'perma soap' came up? That just appeared out of no where.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:19 am #26782

I'm sorry but if you guys want some of us to stop barricading the back maint door you need to clamp down on all the greytiding that occurs on this server.

Round after round I see the same shitters greytiding with no consequence.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:21 am #26783

mrpain wrote:I'm sorry but if you guys want some of us to stop barricading the back maint door you need to clamp down on all the greytiding that occurs on this server.

Round after round I see the same shitters greytiding with no consequence.

If people harass sec even two rounds in a row without cause, or manufacturing cause, ahelp it. If they do it again after that or so on, FNR it and when I get to it, it''ll be dealt with.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:50 am #26789

The barriers do nothing, you just hit it a few times and it goes away. Save them for emergencies.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:08 am #26803

Steelpoint wrote:I would think the guns would belong to the HoS and Captain. The Warden just looks after them. Hell, want to get technically you can say they belong to the corporation.

I think the general agreement is that barring the HoS tossing stuff out of the airlock, and the tables apparently, then anything else is fine.

I'm also wondering where the 'perma soap' came up? That just appeared out of no where.

There are a few ways with very small chances of escaping perma

The soap is the most well known.

You can:
Slipspam soap then strip and kill the officer
Smash every window and pile the glass on the floor. Slip, take shoes and throw them over the shardpile
Quickly drag them in a circle in the cell, buckle them to the bed and use the confusion to table them on the writing desk.
Or just get a lucky table.

Soap is easily the most reliable so many unrobust HoSs who fear an unarmed prisoner while they have the best gear on the station remove it to prevent themselves from dunkitude

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:25 am #26806

Oh I know every method of breaking out of perma. It mostly just comes down to the Officer being incompetent and placing themselves in a bad position.

The only exceptions is if the prisoner took a precaution and set up an escape plan prior to being arrested, or is released by another antag later on. Don't forget there is also the bucket of water that can be used as well.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:42 am #26808

Why don't we just replace tasers with eguns. They are simply inferior to eguns. If officers are allowed to use eguns freely, why have armory in the first place? Put armor in some locker in warden's and that's that.

UtterNewbie · Post by **UtterNewbie** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:56 am #26812

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Why don't we just replace tasers with eguns. They are simply inferior to eguns.

Same reason engineers don't start with insulated gloves and multitools, botanists don't start with farming tools or chef with a knife. Flawed by design just like rest of the station. If everything was good from round start we'd have department preparations.

Equipping your officers, setting up barricades and flashers is the same as any other department doing their round start routine.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:If officers are allowed to use eguns freely, why have armory in the first place? Put armor in some locker in warden's and that's that.

If X then how come unrelated Y? That's why even less related Z!

I'm sure you can put all those loyalty/tracking/chem implants, cuffs, shotguns, flashbangs, tear gas, hard suits, lasers, flashers, and barricades in a locker just fine! Don't forget to leave room for the contraband locker!

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:32 pm #26817

Jesus fuck. While we're talking false equivalencies, handing out energy guns to officers is not remotely the equivalent of, say, purging the AI, and the only person who should be responsible for gun-related murderboners is the one murderboning. Normally this is NRA garbage but in this case it's true: E-guns don't grief people. People grief people.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:01 am #26928

bandit wrote:E-guns don't grief people. People grief people.

I laughed more than I should have

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:07 pm #27217

Honestly, I really only care when it gets out of hand. Examples of it getting way out of hand include but are not limited to:

Handing out lethal arms at the start of the round to your regular officers.
Using riot gear when you don't have any reason to think there's a riot.
Bucklecuffing and stripping a prisoner for a 90 second sentence.
Taking items of theirs that weren't involved in their crime or would help them escape and refusing to return them when the sentence is up.
Wildly tasering or flashbanging public spaces for no reason, even if it's not 'harmful'.

Although I'll say setting up the flashers at roundstart is also incredibly fucking annoying. It essentially prevents all but the most hardy non-Sec from using the brig for, say, medical attention for prisoners, or legal help, or the janitor, or any repairs you need from the engineering team. I won't ban you for it but man, please just don't.

It's hard to make hard and fast rules in a lot of these situations because a lot of it kind of depends.