/tg/Station 13

Prompted by http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... =50#p23896 and https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/4400.

The "ProtectStation" AI law module seems to be regarded as awful. The reasoning being minor station damage is punishable by death and there's no clause to allow removing broken things to rebuild them later. This creates a situation where the AI kills as many people as possible for dumb reasons simply because it can. These are fair issues and ProtectStation could probably be tweaked to solve these issues.

With that in mind, I wanted to see how many people also hate ProtectStation and any suggestions on what do do about it. Could be a new wording, removal outright, a different administration policy, or something else entirely I haven't thought of. If the wording is changed, the spirit of "Protect the station at all costs" must be kept.

For the record, ProtectStation is currently worded as: "Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized." This is usually at law 4.

How about a simple edit like

"Protect the space station against malicious damage. Anyone you see maliciously harming the station is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized."

It should deal with most issues with people "damaging" the station for routine maintenance.

I'm hoping this law would have the AI treat the station itself as human. Similarly how it wouldn't stop doctors from preforming surgery because it often "harms" humans to heal them.

Some possible wordings:
"Protect the space station against damage. Unqualified persons harming the station are to be no longer considered human, and are threats to the station which must be neutralized."
"Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station without logical reason is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized."
"Protect the space station against damage. Anyone destroying large areas of the station, deconstructing important machinery without good reason, or taking actions intended to disrupt habitability is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized."
"Protect the space station against damage. Those who threaten the integrity of the station as a whole are to be no longer considered human, and are threats to the station which must be neutralized."
"The space station is human."
"Whomsoever uploaded this law is a dangerous non-human who must be killed as soon as possible and not permitted to be revived."

How about just

"Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human"

? It preserves the "at all costs" spirit of the law while removing the "YOU MUST KILL" aspect.

bandit wrote:How about just

"Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human"

? It preserves the "at all costs" spirit of the law while removing the "YOU MUST KILL" aspect.

AIs won't have to kill anyone, but they will.

"...Those who threaten the integrity of the station as a whole are to be no longer considered human, and are threats to the station which must be neutralized."

I really do like this interpretation. It keeps the original spirit of the law while restraining it to serious, intentional (or negligent) behavior.

How do we want AIs given this law to behave? Does the Corporate lawset already cause them to behave that way?

Arete wrote:How do we want AIs given this law to behave? Does the Corporate lawset already cause them to behave that way?

Someone knows how to ask the right questions.

Frankly I'm inclined to agree that corporate already covers everything protectstation is supposed to do, although protectstation does have more of a "disaster" feel to it. There's room for both but not as things are now.

Konork wrote:

bandit wrote:How about just

"Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human"

? It preserves the "at all costs" spirit of the law while removing the "YOU MUST KILL" aspect.

AIs won't have to kill anyone, but they will.

And if they overdo it their shit can get slapped per the new silicon policy. Before, AIs didn't have a choice because it is literally in the law.

Ikarrus wrote:How about a simple edit like

"Protect the space station against malicious damage. Anyone you see maliciously harming the station is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized."

It should deal with most issues with people "damaging" the station for routine maintenance.

I'm hoping this law would have the AI treat the station itself as human. Similarly how it wouldn't stop doctors from preforming surgery because it often "harms" humans to heal them.

This

/thread

'Malicious' can be anything. Damaging the hull and departments that you do not work in is what should be against the law set.

'Harm' could be anything too, yet we don't use that logic for asimov.

No, harm is a thing silicons can understand. Harm is damage. Malicious is not a physical thing. If the AI is feeling evil, it can consider malicious to be different of what the crew thinks is malicious.

"You must do your possible to help humans that try to repair the stations."

Scott wrote:No, harm is a thing silicons can understand. Harm is damage. Malicious is not a physical thing. If the AI is feeling evil, it can consider malicious to be different of what the crew thinks is malicious.

Wiktionary defines malice as "Intention to harm or deprive in an illegal or immoral way. Desire to take pleasure in another's misfortune."

If harm is fine, malice is fine.

Protect, repair and maintain space station's integrity. Anyone preventing you from doing that is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized.

Alternatively remove "Must be neutralized" part, so AI doesn't go validhunting and focuses on repairs.

Why don't we describe what we want from it in silicon policy, like Corporate and Paladin?

I don't even know what ProtectStation is supposed to be about. Mass bombings? Gray tide vandalism? What is it protecting station from?

I have received a warning in my notes from a headmin for uploading it as a non antag. Put it on the "naughty laws" table or get rid of it.

Well I figure it's like asimov, but for the station.

Asimov: Corporate edition
Corporate: Asimov edition

Pandarsenic wrote:I don't even know what ProtectStation is supposed to be about. Mass bombings? Gray tide vandalism? What is it protecting station from?

Everything, ProtectStation is designed to stop anyone doing any sort of damage to the station.

Its really handy if someone is bombing or has a bunch of grenades/IEDs.