Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:01 pm #513112

oranges wrote:Also regarding organs, organs are specifically supposed to be healed via surgery

I don't like the trend that everyone is doing of making every single issue in the game solved by chemistry/reagents just because it happens to be one of the most fleshed out systems in the game.

im perfectly happy for surgery's to be added that heal organs, or consume reagents on touch to the organ to heal it, before you put it back in.

But I dont' want straight organ healing via chems because the surgery system needs fleshing out too

For this to be a thing, organs would actually have to do something meaningful outside of the alcohol poisoning meme.

I remember one round I was in where people were getting their eardrums blown out by flashbangs, and they came rushing into the surgery only for their newly-implanted monkey ears to not actually give them their hearing back until the default deafened state ended. Organ damage and the benefits of replacement seem to be totally inconsistent across organs, which is just another symptom of the medical systems being totally divorced from the life function and body systems in their intents.

No medbay rework, not cobbychem or cloning removal or whatever, is going to succeed until a coherent roadmap is laid out for what features you actually want people to use and how they will interact with the body and its parts. It would be worth it to make this public, so other coders can contribute to the project.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:21 pm #513118

is it time for the orange (organe) system to be a codebase goal like planetstation and de-centralized RND

this means that it'll never be fully completed
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:08 pm #513123

Shadowflame909 wrote:is it time for the orange (organe) system to be a codebase goal like planetstation and de-centralized RND

this means that it'll never be fully completed

Considering the slapdash implementation of med and chem reworks so far, we're probably already there. Why not let the end-goal be public?
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:04 am #513152

everything in this game is slapdash, because we don't have paid devs nothing is ever going to be perfectly implemented straight away, if you want to fix a specific issue, then get stuck in.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:13 am #513177

oranges wrote:everything in this game is slapdash, because we don't have paid devs nothing is ever going to be perfectly implemented straight away, if you want to fix a specific issue, then get stuck in.

I'm a newbie with the git development tool, but I actually do have some things I want to implement. I just want to be in the loop, and I want everyone else to be in the loop, so we all know what your plan is. Like, I definitely can't do a PR to trash cobbychem and replace it with a bare-bones simple medical chem system (like I outlined earlier) because cobby has obviously produced something you like.

From the broad-strokes ideas you've presented I think I agree with you in principle, but there seem to be a lot of specifics that don't make sense because nobody in the playerbase has the full picture.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Cobby » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:01 pm #513259

Sandshark808 wrote:
oranges wrote:everything in this game is slapdash, because we don't have paid devs nothing is ever going to be perfectly implemented straight away, if you want to fix a specific issue, then get stuck in.

I'm a newbie with the git development tool, but I actually do have some things I want to implement. I just want to be in the loop, and I want everyone else to be in the loop, so we all know what your plan is. Like, I definitely can't do a PR to trash cobbychem and replace it with a bare-bones simple medical chem system (like I outlined earlier) because cobby has obviously produced something you like.

From the broad-strokes ideas you've presented I think I agree with you in principle, but there seem to be a lot of specifics that don't make sense because nobody in the playerbase has the full picture.


It's just "move away from chems and focus on more active methods of healing (IE surgery)".

Chems should have downsides or be difficult to produce to make them competitive with active methods of healing which require trust and time.

I'm not sure how we haven't made that clear yet.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:25 pm #513301

Cobby wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:
oranges wrote:everything in this game is slapdash, because we don't have paid devs nothing is ever going to be perfectly implemented straight away, if you want to fix a specific issue, then get stuck in.

I'm a newbie with the git development tool, but I actually do have some things I want to implement. I just want to be in the loop, and I want everyone else to be in the loop, so we all know what your plan is. Like, I definitely can't do a PR to trash cobbychem and replace it with a bare-bones simple medical chem system (like I outlined earlier) because cobby has obviously produced something you like.

From the broad-strokes ideas you've presented I think I agree with you in principle, but there seem to be a lot of specifics that don't make sense because nobody in the playerbase has the full picture.


It's just "move away from chems and focus on more active methods of healing (IE surgery)".

Chems should have downsides or be difficult to produce to make them competitive with active methods of healing which require trust and time.

I'm not sure how we haven't made that clear yet.


Perhaps you should have started with a major surgery rework, because where we're at now means that surgery is kinda bad and medicine is still way better but also might kill you.

Just check out viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23936 for how confusing and inconsistent surgery is. If this is gonna be our primary method of healing, it needs to be not only very robust but also actually work as advertised.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Cobby » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:51 pm #513307

that is 1 surgery, I think it's a bit much to say the entire system is incoherent/confusing because of 1 minor issue of naming organ add-ons as something that security can inject you with.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:34 pm #513339

Cobby wrote:that is 1 surgery, I think it's a bit much to say the entire system is incoherent/confusing because of 1 minor issue of naming organ add-ons as something that security can inject you with.

It illustrates a larger problem with how surgery is done, which is to say that it was always seen as a side-feature and now that you want it to be the main feature it's full of weird cruft that many people find extremely off-putting to learn.

As someone who enjoys doing surgery, here are a few questions I hear people ask or that I had to ask when I started: Why are there separate surgeries to take things out of the body? Why can some implants be removed normally and some have to have a case on-hand? Why is there a tank of anesthetic gas in the surgery room but no way to make more? Is there any reason to actually put people under for surgery aside from tricking them if you're going to brainwash?

My point is that the plan is being executed wrong. You want to push people to surgery, but only a few dedicated people know its ins and outs and it's not particularly good at curing people right now to boot. What you should have done, and probably should do now, is buff surgery and simplify it at the same time. Here are a few of my ideas:

1. Merge organ manipulation and implant removal into one surgery type.

2. Make all implants function like organs, even the injectable ones, to normalize behavior across all types. This would also allow fun things like if you smash a sec officer's head in with a toolbox you might get lucky and be able to convert them to cult/rev/whatever.

3. Compress the research tree for surgery so revival surgery is obtainable early without miners lynching R&D, or make revival surgery a roundstart surgery.

4. Give doctors a surgical kit when they spawn.

5. When cloning is removed, or even before that, make the organ growing machine a roundstart machine in medbay.

6. "Nerf" medicine by making two broad tiers of chems: Simple Chems, which heal between 2 and 5 damage per tick and metabolize slowly, and Advanced Chems which heal a moderate amount quickly but require the cooperation of an advanced department to provide some specific ingredient or reagent that chemistry can't make on its own.

If you must include a penalty, make it a silly or interesting one based on the special ingredient. For example, a mushroom toxin medicine might cause hallucinations, or a plasma-based radiation cure might turn your skin purple and make you temporarily flammable. The huge penalties for cobbychems aren't producing fun, they're just making people chug charcoal and eat ambrosia. They don't even have the intended negative repercussions for overuse, or at least I'm not seeing them matter in actual rounds.

7. Give surgery steps a prompt for the proper sequential tool, and give an indication if a surgery is already active on a patient. Construction and decon already do this, so it would make sense to add, and it would help newbies learn the ropes. Making it so the wrong tool doesn't stab people was a good idea, but it could still be a little clearer.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:07 pm #513358

to buff surgery to match chems would have made it so absurdly overpowered that it would have made medical even more of a joke than it was.

The nerf was necessary, because of how simplified the trekchems had made tg med.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:19 pm #513363

oranges wrote:to buff surgery to match chems would have made it so absurdly overpowered that it would have made medical even more of a joke than it was.

The nerf was necessary, because of how simplified the trekchems had made tg med.

It's not about matching chems, it's about making surgery more useful. Did you read my list of suggestions? I didn't suggest making surgery heal more damage, I suggested making it more user-friendly and less dependent on an already over-stressed R&D point pool.

Furthermore, the "nerf" didn't make chems less good, it just made them have really un-fun side effects that aren't stopping people from using them. Time to heal is basically the same as it was before with some medicines now having extremely negative consequences in edge cases and in most cases just being annoying. A slow-release base medicine for each type of damage is more in line with your stated goal than cobbychem is.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Cobby » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:33 pm #513368

1. Merge organ manipulation and implant removal into one surgery type.


Organ manipulation is organ -based. I'd rather "implants" in the sense of reviver implant be changed to organ mods or something since implants are the little chips that track/apply chems/loyalty.

2. Make all implants function like organs, even the injectable ones, to normalize behavior across all types. This would also allow fun things like if you smash a sec officer's head in with a toolbox you might get lucky and be able to convert them to cult/rev/whatever.


See above, implants are like chips in the person. I wouldn't mind a minute chance of removing an implant through heavily damaging the head or something.

3. Compress the research tree for surgery so revival surgery is obtainable early without miners lynching R&D, or make revival surgery a roundstart surgery.


Use defib and dissect bodies so you have medical bargaining power.

4. Give doctors a surgical kit when they spawn.


I wouldn't mind a rudimentary kit for them (which was PRd but author closed it).

5. When cloning is removed, or even before that, make the organ growing machine a roundstart machine in medbay.


Use EmptyCloning into Surgery into storage. You can also research cybernetic organs.

You SHOULDN'T be experiencing organ failure regularly.

6. "Nerf" medicine by making two broad tiers of chems: Simple Chems, which heal between 2 and 5 damage per tick and metabolize slowly, and Advanced Chems which heal a moderate amount quickly but require the cooperation of an advanced department to provide some specific ingredient or reagent that chemistry can't make on its own.


No.

I do want Dopable meds to be locked behind department cooperation (meaning botany needs chemistry and vice versa to make the chem).

I also want white kits to be the minor damage healers instead of strong single-bodypart healers they are now.

7. Give surgery steps a prompt for the proper sequential tool, and give an indication if a surgery is already active on a patient. Construction and decon already do this, so it would make sense to add, and it would help newbies learn the ropes. Making it so the wrong tool doesn't stab people was a good idea, but it could still be a little clearer.


Already exists if you use optables.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Recurracy » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:39 pm #513373

the 'failure' chance for the healing surgeries is the fucking devil, you basically need to have a surgery table if you actually want to heal people to full
roller beds shouldn't fail at all but operate at 75% effectiveness or something, how do you expect any capable MD to do triage when you heal people for 5 damage every 2 steps, and deal 15 damage every 3rd step

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Cobby » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:50 am #513404

you're only 5% off.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:55 am #513406

back to where you started.

That's pretty evil
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:58 am #513413

Cobby wrote:
1. Merge organ manipulation and implant removal into one surgery type.


Organ manipulation is organ -based. I'd rather "implants" in the sense of reviver implant be changed to organ mods or something since implants are the little chips that track/apply chems/loyalty.

2. Make all implants function like organs, even the injectable ones, to normalize behavior across all types. This would also allow fun things like if you smash a sec officer's head in with a toolbox you might get lucky and be able to convert them to cult/rev/whatever.


See above, implants are like chips in the person. I wouldn't mind a minute chance of removing an implant through heavily damaging the head or something.

Is there existing code for adding mods to organs? The way I'm looking at this, certain implants like the loyalty implant are obviously attachments to the brain, but others like the storage implant function essentially like a separate organ in the chest cavity which contains items.

If there was a good way to attach them to organs it could be coded so that once you have the organ out you could just pick them off with a hemostat, in much the same way that you can use a screwdriver on a headset and it drops the chip at your feet, which would be pretty cool. It would simplify surgery in the same way that I want, while also letting chip implants remain unique. There would also then be room to have them react to organ damage.

Some of the bigger ones should still show up in the organ manipulation menu, like implanted flashlights and storage implants.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Calomel » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:39 am #513438

oranges wrote:to buff surgery to match chems would have made it so absurdly overpowered that it would have made medical even more of a joke than it was.

The nerf was necessary, because of how simplified the trekchems had made tg med.


Honestly, i agree with this. With olD chems you could ahve everything to heal the station 4 times over in 4 minutes without any effort (Tricord was brain-dead and Perfluoro
was easy as well); at least with this there is more effort required for Chemistry to actually pull their weight.

I have been testing how fast you can get going in Chemistry right now, and I was able to get Oxan, Saly, Pentetic and Salbu in like 10 minutes,
specially since Salbu comes very effectively from sali production, so Chem can still get everything, it just takes a bit more work.

Pentetic removes all other chems so it's already quite a lmited chemical that has to be used properly to do anything. Oxandrolone and Rhigo/Trop have
risky OD rates, so they become slow healers with a high chance of poisoning if the person doesn't know what he's doing, which deterrs people form med raiding/self healing,
which we can agree was a big reason why med players were undervalued.

Salbutamol, salicylic and oxandrolone work well as panic heals, but are slow as molasses at topping people off. Since surgery takes more time for healing the more hurt you are,
it creates a nice combo; panic heal first, then top off with surgery/Food/bruise pack/ointment while it's going or afterwards. of course, I understand there will be
more changes, but right now it seems this is where we stand. Maybe a toxin panic med like Oxandrolone? It could need toxin bottles, which would cause
interesting crew interactions. (I refer to my preivous post; where I mentioned sending asisstants to find the abandoned clinic, as an example)

I'm interested on seeing the botany-chemistry meds: it'll be nice for the botany-chem relationship to be two-ways. Although i always leave three bottles of mutagen/cleaner on the fridge
by principle, I imagine seeing Chem and botany actually exchanging stuff would be interesting. Just make sure that, in the event no botanist is on-station, that chemists can enter
Hydroponics (Or depend on Cook/bartender, which would be a rare case of a cook/bartender interaction).

In short, I reserve my judgement until the changes are finished, but I don't think cobbychems are a dealbreaker at all, and it is only an inconvinience to med raiders
who'd rather ignore the whole medical process to keep turning spacemen horizontal. Of course, this assumes Chemistry actually does his job, and I don't know how
common that is, can anyone with more experience illuminate me on this point? Thanks. Also, sorry for long post, I wanted to have all my thoughts in one go for
easier understanding.
Last edited by Calomel on Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby CPTANT » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:57 am #513454

Sandshark808 wrote:
Cobby wrote:
1. Merge organ manipulation and implant removal into one surgery type.



viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23936

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby CPTANT » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:00 pm #513456

oranges wrote:to buff surgery to match chems would have made it so absurdly overpowered that it would have made medical even more of a joke than it was.

The nerf was necessary, because of how simplified the trekchems had made tg med.


But treckchems were never the ones used, it was always the instant healing brute/burn patches that were the problem.

They were just the perfect medicine. Easy to make, instant heal, no downsides, no OD.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby py01 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:59 pm #513599

I'm enjoying the more complicated decision tree for medical treatment, but I feel that the existence of bruise packs and ointment in their current state are undermining most of the depth, they are a first order optimal strategy at the moment for many situations. For severe combat injuries, most damage is concentrated in one area, usually the chest, making bruise packs substantially better than advanced chemicals like salicyclic acid.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:17 am #513629

Right now Omnizine plants are the go-to easy healing. Easy fix would be to make omnizine craftable by chem but require a botany precursor similar to how rezadone is made. Having it take one other chem that only chemistry can easily make would be enough, like copper, or using plasma as a catalyst.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:13 am #513649

Calomel wrote:snip.

thanks for the detailed feedback

In terms of the medkit/easy heals, It might be an idea to cap them at only healing the top 50% (60%? 75%?) of health, which means they're still useful to fix up scrapes and bruises and burns etc that are not more damaging.

This still prevents the fridge logic of having to go to medbay cause you cut your finger or stabbed yourself with a screwdriver by accident, but does mean that serious woundings will require surgical intervention.


edit:dawson had the idea of having a very slow passive healing rate, and ointment/bruise packs could speed up that rate by a percentage.

[14:41] Dawson1917: you can always start low, we still have chembay and surgery as crutches for fast healing right now
[14:42] Dawson1917: a real minimum amount to start off with would probably be healing 1 damage per minute, meaning it takes a full hour to heal off 60 damage
[14:43] oranges: I do like the idea
[14:43] Dawson1917: that healing being divided by the different damages you currently have, like 0.5 brute and 0.5 burn per minute if you have brute and burn damage
Dawson1917: it's too low to ever save someone in a combat situation or let them ignore medbay but if they step on a glass shard or touch a lightbulb they can go "well it'll heal on its own" rather than fetching a medkit for so little damage

edit: edit:
sleeping could also improve the rate by a %
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Zangard Howitzer » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:38 am #513682

It’s been tossed around before, but I cannot remember if you (@cobby,oranges) have mulled over it. This isn’t my idea in the slightest, but a merge of ideas I have seen, experienced, etc.

At a certain threshold of brute damage (for example’s sake, let’s say 50), bone fractures/breaks can occur on melee hits 5 damage or greater, with the percentage of fracture scaling with total brute damage. IE Someone with 90 Brute is more likekly to break a bone from being robusted than someone with the base 50. Broken bones, depending on the area wounded (legs:delayed movement speed, tripping. Arms:action delay, dropping items. Chest: organ damage. Head:organ damage) and will deal brute damage the more they are used without being stabilized or fixed. Obviously, surery will be used to fix the issue, but for emergency stabilization when surgery isn’t usable, casts/splints can be used to temporarily mitigate the damage caused.

Repeated for Burn, let’s use the same example threshold of 50 burn damage. If left untreated, burn wounds can become infected. Major infections will require surgery to fix. If left untreated, the infection can spread throughout the body (slowed with spaceillin) and deal toxin damage multiplied by number/severity of infected body parts.

With these implementations, your idea of Medical doctors getting more action is fulfilled. Small wounds will be able to be medkitted and healed by other methods, and more severe wounds will require more effort from doctors, with more devistating effects if left untreated. This adds more of a gameplay/sense of urgency to doctoring
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Zangard Howitzer » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:43 am #513683

In terms of the chemicals, the minor healing damages in the medkits should IMO be low-healing with little to no side effects, while the medicines with more devastating side effects should heal rapidly. Therefore Medbay isn’t clogged by people with papercuts, and people are discouraged to use medicines rather than safer alternatives (such as the newly implemented tend wound surgeries) for more major injuries, lest they have to deal with the consequences and maneuver mixes to mitigate the damage done. In laymans terms, High-risk high-reward.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:00 am #513686

Zangard Howitzer wrote:In terms of the chemicals, the minor healing damages in the medkits should IMO be low-healing with little to no side effects, while the medicines with more devastating side effects should heal rapidly. Therefore Medbay isn’t clogged by people with papercuts, and people are discouraged to use medicines rather than safer alternatives (such as the newly implemented tend wound surgeries) for more major injuries, lest they have to deal with the consequences and maneuver mixes to mitigate the damage done. In laymans terms, High-risk high-reward.

I suggested this just above but Cobby didn't even consider it.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Taraiph » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:07 am #513688

With a bit more time working with the chemicals, I've come to a new set of conclusions.

Surgery is absolutely amazing to use, and a godsend for playing around with, conditionally. If you're a plasmaman, and you get injured, you're basically fucked if I have to do surgery. If we have three people who need surgery at the same time, someone's getting fucked for the sole reason that there are two other people ahead of them. If there's anything more hazardous than a swarmer infestation happening on the station, then surgery goes from "preferred, but unwieldy" to "nearly impossible". If I have to do surgery on someone because they got shot into crit with lasers by nuke ops, that person's going to die. If I somehow get into a ten-minute drawn-out firefight on the bridge with a horde of kitted-out cultists and I run out of bruise kits to treat someone with, that person's dead. If there are xenomorphs/spiders/zombies that multiply the more time goes on without all of them being killed, if I have to treat your wounds with surgery, you're probably already dead. Then you'll come back as a xeno/spider/zombie to cause me even more trouble. If you are ever constrained by time, surgery probably won't do anything.

The actual cobbychems themselves are fairly useless for dealing with most ailments that are caused by anything other than pure oxygen deprivation, as far as I can tell. Syriniver's the closest to "useful" a chem as I can find, but it's just not as useful as Pentetic Acid. All of the brute-healers and burn-healers are useless to the point of in-born obsolescence by the mere existence of cryoxadone/omnizine, neither of which are ever in truly short supply with even an amateur botanist/chemist. They're better used to kill/incapacitate than heal in a pinch. I've started considering adding chlorine and instabitaluri to my hypospray mix for extra damage while I try to get away. The takeaway is that it's just not worth the effort to figure them out while they shake impotently on a stasis bed when you could be either either tossing them in a cryopod or bashing their head in with a toolbox and cloning them.

Radiation is the second worst nightmare of Medbay. If you're irradiated, you're going to irradiate literally everyone else coming to Medbay, as well as the Medbay staff, and then we have to inhale pentetic pills while you die vomiting your guts out under a shower. It's effectively impossible to deal with properly, which is a pain on a station where your main power source can instantly turn you into ash if you touch it.

I'm still not sure if this new Medbay is actually good. Sure, it's busier and more engaging, but in an unfun and boring way, like washing dishes or doing grammar homework.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Calomel » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:53 am #513694

Taraiph wrote:If you are ever constrained by time, surgery probably won't do anything.

The actual cobbychems themselves are fairly useless for dealing with most ailments that are caused by anything other than pure oxygen deprivation, as far as I can tell.

Radiation is the second worst nightmare of Medbay. If you're irradiated, you're going to irradiate literally everyone else coming to Medbay, as well as the Medbay staff, and then we have to inhale pentetic pills while you die vomiting your guts out under a shower. It's effectively impossible to deal with properly, which is a pain on a station where your main power source can instantly turn you into ash if you touch it.


1. The problems with a surgery-oriented medbay are mainly that surgery requires active part by the medical doctor, which can lead to waiting lines during war times, and having to stay
in Medbay to wait for people when it's not. If I played Engineering I'd be tempted to build literal Stasis Beds everywhere around the station for easier access.

2. At this point in time I would neve ruse the new "basic" chems for any reason, and i would discourage anyone form ever using them. There are better alternatives even on chemistry for all of them,
that can be done in high quantities (specially with an upgraded chem dispenser). If they removed them completely I don't think we'd be missing much. It'd honestly be better if basic chems onyl healed
you when you're already pretty healthy (maybe mix them with the ointment and such and make paper-cut medicine) while the actual chems are panic meds (Like oxandro and sali). That way
all chems have a unique purpose, and no chem will be "better" or "worse"

3. Radiation is an absolute death sentence. Iodide does not do the job fast enough and there is literally no way to deal with heavy radiation. The honestyly best thing to do with heavy radiation is to put on a
Rad suit, extract' the person's brain, and space the body. Then clone/borg the brain. And even then you'll subject half of medbay to radiation hell. Chemistry -needs- a better rad heal, maybe an IV
requiring one (Dyalisis is too complicted to do, but a chemical that works on IV drip isn't).
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Recurracy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:48 am #513891

Just remove the RNG success when you're doing surgery on a roller bed and give every MD a scalpel, hemostat and cautery, it'd make triage a lot less of a pain in the ass

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Calomel » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:10 pm #513933

Recurracy wrote:Just remove the RNG success when you're doing surgery on a roller bed and give every MD a scalpel, hemostat and cautery, it'd make triage a lot less of a pain in the ass


Actually, this can be achieved by Medical having an accesible lathe to build stuff from like Botany does.
And also, i decided to mess around as Engineer and found out I can litter the entire station with stasis beds
with very little effort (A stasis bed's circuit + microman + capacitor is not expensive to make), so if there's waiting lines
just go pester engineering and/or science. Engis barely have anything to do after setting the SM anyways.

Also, cargo can make surgery tools as well, just contact your friendly QM/Cargo techie or just break into Cargo
if the place is empty. People already break into the lathe all the time anyways, at least this way it's for a good cause.
Plus, it gives Medical doctors something to do that isn't "round about medbay for the 12th time".
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:47 pm #513950

Calomel wrote:
Recurracy wrote:Just remove the RNG success when you're doing surgery on a roller bed and give every MD a scalpel, hemostat and cautery, it'd make triage a lot less of a pain in the ass


Actually, this can be achieved by Medical having an accesible lathe to build stuff from like Botany does.
And also, i decided to mess around as Engineer and found out I can litter the entire station with stasis beds
with very little effort (A stasis bed's circuit + microman + capacitor is not expensive to make), so if there's waiting lines
just go pester engineering and/or science. Engis barely have anything to do after setting the SM anyways.

Also, cargo can make surgery tools as well, just contact your friendly QM/Cargo techie or just break into Cargo
if the place is empty. People already break into the lathe all the time anyways, at least this way it's for a good cause.
Plus, it gives Medical doctors something to do that isn't "round about medbay for the 12th time".

You need technology from the R&D techweb to make surgery tools.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:08 pm #513976

Sandshark808 wrote:You need technology from the R&D techweb to make surgery tools.


Not the baseline ones.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Taraiph » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:02 am #514121

Cobby wrote:
3. Compress the research tree for surgery so revival surgery is obtainable early without miners lynching R&D, or make revival surgery a roundstart surgery.


Use defib and dissect bodies so you have medical bargaining power.


Read: Get fucked if R&D decides nanites are better than surgery.

Use EmptyCloning into Surgery into storage. You can also research cybernetic organs.

You SHOULDN'T be experiencing organ failure regularly.
[/quote]

If you're using these chems you're probably already experiencing major organ failures by virtue of having them in your system in the first place. Besides, empty cloning > surgery > storage > surgery is not any more effective (or even a comparable use of your time) than toolbox > cloning >cryo.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Cobby » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:20 am #514367

Taraiph wrote:Read: Get fucked if R&D decides nanites are better than surgery.

If you're using these chems you're probably already experiencing major organ failures by virtue of having them in your system in the first place. Besides, empty cloning > surgery > storage > surgery is not any more effective (or even a comparable use of your time) than toolbox > cloning >cryo.



1. No, you can just clone OR TW into Defib OR heart replacement into defib.

2. I mean stop taking so much, otherwise idk what to tell you but that's not true? As for le epic KNC, The idea is that you do it beforehand. Of course it's not going to be as efficient if you're doing it "on request", you should be doing it whenever you get downtime. Research can also alleviate this with cybernetic organs.

If everyone is taking damage for some reason then yeah it's going to be hard. That's intentional.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:28 am #514377

Cobby wrote:
Taraiph wrote:Read: Get fucked if R&D decides nanites are better than surgery.

If you're using these chems you're probably already experiencing major organ failures by virtue of having them in your system in the first place. Besides, empty cloning > surgery > storage > surgery is not any more effective (or even a comparable use of your time) than toolbox > cloning >cryo.



1. No, you can just clone OR TW into Defib OR heart replacement into defib.

2. I mean stop taking so much, otherwise idk what to tell you but that's not true? As for le epic KNC, The idea is that you do it beforehand. Of course it's not going to be as efficient if you're doing it "on request", you should be doing it whenever you get downtime. Research can also alleviate this with cybernetic organs.

If everyone is taking damage for some reason then yeah it's going to be hard. That's intentional.

So you want it to be harder in the phase where it was already really hard, but also harder in the phase where it was straightforward? How does this increase player enjoyment again?
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Cobby » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:38 am #514386

which phase was "already really hard" and which one was "straightforward"?

Little Damage? Stypic
Medium Damage? Stypic
LOTS OF DAMAGE? Stypic
LOTS OF DAMAGE WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE? MORE Stypic

If you're implying medical was ever difficult outside of maybe an instakill cheese mechanic (or wizard bafoonery I guess) then I don't think we've been playing the same game.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:09 am #514404

Cobby wrote:which phase was "already really hard" and which one was "straightforward"?

Little Damage? Stypic
Medium Damage? Stypic
LOTS OF DAMAGE? Stypic
LOTS OF DAMAGE WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE? MORE Stypic

If you're implying medical was ever difficult outside of maybe an instakill cheese mechanic (or wizard bafoonery I guess) then I don't think we've been playing the same game.

Styptic has always had an overdose threshold. Synthflesh made with extracted and mutated blood was the way to go to cure major injuries but it still wouldn't stop medbay from being choked with the dead when a robust player showed up.

That you reduce medbay to this oversimplification shows that A) you don't play medical doctor and don't understand how difficult it was to keep up with an active antagonist with the old, better chems, or B) you aren't aware that Oranges is removing cloning relatively soon and so your changes aren't keeping that in mind.

I suggest you take into consideration that every person who plays medbay hates your changes and 1/2 to 3/4ths of the doctor mains on Sybil have quit over your chem rework. People are just not having fun playing the role anymore.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Taraiph » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:51 am #514438

Cobby wrote:which phase was "already really hard" and which one was "straightforward"?

Little Damage? Stypic
Medium Damage? Stypic
LOTS OF DAMAGE? Stypic
LOTS OF DAMAGE WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE? MORE Stypic

If you're implying medical was ever difficult outside of maybe an instakill cheese mechanic (or wizard bafoonery I guess) then I don't think we've been playing the same game.


This one's gonna take me a minute.

In game design (and if you're going to tell me that ss13 isn't a game when you can have mothpeople clowns shooting banana creampies at literal robe-and-hat spacewizards you can fuck off), giving the player choices does not necessarily improve player engagement or improve the player's decision making.

To tell you what I mean, let's take one of my favorite fighting games: Street Fighter 3: Third Strike: Fight For The Future. Every character gets three super moves that you choose at character selection, and each one can drastically change the overall playstyle and goals of that character. My favorite character, Remy, has a super move that can throw a barrage of projectiles, a super move that covers a massive vertical slice of the screen in three somersaults, and a super move that outright counters any basic attack you throw at it. Lots of really good choices there, right? You'd see a lot of different players try and play a more zoning-based playstyle with the first one or an aggressive one with the second and a very mindgame-based with the third. Thus, every player has a different approach to how they would play Remy, and more people would enjoy playing Remy due to his interesting and useful tools.

This is not the case. All three are dogshit. I won't go into exact reasons here (There's a lot of knowledge I know most of you don't have and I'd have to define and explain each and every one) but everyone picks the second super move and ignores the others because it's the only one that can be properly made use of with Remy's toolset given what literally every other character has access to.

This is medbay.

What you've made, Cobby, is a situation where the choices available are effectively inferior in every circumstance to the choices that came before, further obsoleting the department you wanted to improve. No one wants to risk blindness with aiuri or replace burn damage with brute with ichiyuri. No one wants to sit on a table for a minute and a half (or more) while they wait for a doctor to tend their wounds. No doctor wants to sit there and tend wounds because it keeps them from dealing with other matters that may be more useful in the near future. And no one wants to have to wait for the CMO (AKA me) or a doctor (often non-existent) to finish up with someone else to tend to their bullshit.

Medbay's a team effort.

The problem is there's no one else to play with.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:53 am #514439

Sandshark808 wrote:Styptic has always had an overdose threshold.


Thats where your wrong kiddo. It used to not have one, it just purged from your system very fast.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:58 am #514454

I should have known you're from the fighting game community given how insane you are
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Sandshark808 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:32 am #514457

oranges wrote:I should have known you're from the fighting game community given how insane you are

"Surely THIS snarky comment will deal the crushing blow to my critics," says increasingly nervous man for 7th time this week.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:04 am #514461

you got me sandshark 808

also stop saying im removing cloning soon.

It's just not true at all, reddit asked about it in the AMA and I said in a year or mores time, when medbay was suitably ready for it.

It really pisses me off when people straight up lie about stuff like this and I will catch you a dev subforum ban for it.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby CPTANT » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:44 am #514468

Sandshark808 wrote:Styptic has always had an overdose threshold.


Yeah no, I literally added a styptic OD 2 months ago.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:51 am #514471

which is probably about how long this person has been playing

oh, apparently since march this year, so not far off
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Calomel » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:23 am #514477

I'm going to take the middle ground position, as dangeorus as it is to do so.

I do agree on teh elimination of Styptic/Silver and Bic/Anti/kelo. They took no effort to make, Chemistry has clear alternatives to it that
can be done en masse with almost as much ease. Oxandro and sali are powerful stabilization chems, and trop and rigo, albeit a bit slow,
can work for moderate wounds. To chemistry these changes at least avoid the chemists finishing all the work in 5 minutes and then
be at the bar for the rest of the round or make meth because there isn't anything else to do.

My only complaint on this respect is the lack of an emergency anti poison (I can't use Pentetic with multiple damage types because of purges)
and a better anti-rad (We can't keep up even with basic SM radiation)

On teh toehr hands, i agree that the new Tier 1 chems have aboslutely no reaosn to even be brewed. As a chemist I'd never do it, because
there is no reason to do so. I'd either make them paper-cut chems (Healing only when a person has above X% health) and substitute
the ointment/bruise packs for them, and make the medkits have Oxandro/Salicyl/[Insert emeregency toxin heal here] so medbay has
some method to deal with things taht doesn't require chemistry. (Over-dependance of chemistry was one of the reasons medbay was so
undervalued, and these changes only make Chemistry even more indispensable)

Also, this also provides a challenge to medbay: to truly heal people you'd need both types, so trying to use onyl chems will deplete medbay
really quickly; they must compliment the chems with surgery to maintain their reserves if a chemist is not present, or depend
on CARGONIA. heck, you can allow a "void zone" between the emergency heals and the paper cut heals so there is a sweet spot
where surgery si the only way to deal with an injury. That would make all things (Chems, surgery) relevant and with a unique use.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 am #514480

Is that actually true regarding the rads? I've been getting conflicting answers on radiation for weeks now and I can't figure out why people are having radically different experiences.

I like the idea of switching the tier 1 chems to be paper cut chems, personally I'd cap them to heal the top 40% of damage only, and then make them the active components of bruise /burn patches etc.

I know someone mooted the idea of passive healing over time and the paper-cut chems speeding up that heal rate a bit., however I think a cap is more manageable and understandable (with proper feedback).
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby oranges » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:48 am #514481

Taraiph wrote:What you've made, Cobby, is a situation where the choices available are effectively inferior in every circumstance to the choices that came before

Trekchems were super op, so needed a nerf, to make room for people to make actually meaningful tradeoffs in medbay, instead of just jabbing people full of the relevant chem for the relevant damage, and then leaving them healing on their own.

No doctor wants to sit there and tend wounds because it keeps them from dealing with other matters that may be more useful in the near future.

doctors don't want to do their job incase they get to do something else that isn't their job?
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Mickyan » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:57 pm #514498

I spent some time giving a proper look at new medical so let me preface with a few things:
-Last time I played MD in any proper capacity was with trekchems/sleepers so I did not experience the somewhat rocky start of the rework
-I played as is advertised, with tend wounds being the primary healing method
-I acknowledge some people seem to prefer standing next to medibots for 10 minutes instead of either learning how to use chems or just asking doctors for help, either out of spite or stupidity, and that's entirely on them


Overall, good riddance to braindead medical, MDs have a reason to exist

There's some problems.
Short version is: Tend wounds does not feel like a preferred method, it feels like a fallback if you can't/won't deal with the chems.
-You have a limited amount of tools roundstart which get lost/stolen. You MAY be able to print more if science does its job (more on this later) but that's still going to waste your time while your patients die.
-For full effectiveness you need very specific machinery (surgery computer), field surgery is a not viable option. Your patients will probably hate you for even trying since it's so goddamn slow especially if you spill all their inventory on the floor for passerbys to steal.
-RNG FAILURE CHANCE IS BAD
-Effectiveness of tend surgery is entirely dependent on the science department throwing you a bone instead of investing in their own toys and, once more, very specific machinery only found in select parts of the station. So now MDs are dependant on science as well as chemists to be able to do their job effectively. Admittedly this is an issue with RnD nodes as a whole.

All of this is juxtaposed to using chemical patches without even having to take off your spacesuit.
Chem side effects are generally not an issue once you understand how to use them and not to abuse them. A skilled chemist can still make mixes that will outheal a team of MDs with none of the grief and preparation of doing surgery.
Granted good chemists are few and far between, but their potential still outclasses MDs by a long shot.

Some suggestions:
-Make tend wounds more effective the more damaged a patient is, ex: heal_damage = 5+(damage*0.1). Don't make me regret trying to heal a body instead of just throwing it in the cloner, which would be faster and not a waste of time.
-Drastically decrease the penalty from doing tend wounds with clothes on, the time investment for both people involved is bad enough as it is
-Turn surgery failure chance into a speed multiplier that goes beyond 100%, so using sterilizing agents in ideal conditions is still advantageous
-Merge my PR that gives medical doctors the tools they need to do their job already
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby Taraiph » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:31 pm #514510

oranges wrote:
Taraiph wrote:What you've made, Cobby, is a situation where the choices available are effectively inferior in every circumstance to the choices that came before

Trekchems were super op, so needed a nerf, to make room for people to make actually meaningful tradeoffs in medbay, instead of just jabbing people full of the relevant chem for the relevant damage, and then leaving them healing on their own.

No doctor wants to sit there and tend wounds because it keeps them from dealing with other matters that may be more useful in the near future.

doctors don't want to do their job incase they get to do something else that isn't their job?


1. I think everyone's in agreement that Trekchems were/are super OP. Personally I'd lock them behind research and maybe a new machine specifically for making more advanced chems separate from the dispenser/heater but my spitballing != decent gameplay. In addition, we still have cryo and cloning, which are WAY better for dealing with injuries than surgery, if only because you don't have to worry about juggling one less person in medbay
Spoiler:
and because tiding someone in a cloning pod is way harder
.

2. The busier medbay is the worse the overall situation on the station is. Ideally medbay should be barren, or get one person every five to ten minutes. If there's a fucking clog of people in medbay, you're probably better off calling the shuttle because at that point whatever caused the issue is only getting worse by the minute.

I should have known you're from the fighting game community given how insane you are


3. Stones and glass houses.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby L_Nacho_Chaos_L » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:51 pm #514518

Chems that don't have a surgery alternative shouldn't do damage (I'm looking at you, Multiver). They can have temporary side effects, but they shouldn't do anything that'll need more chems to fix.

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Postby CPTANT » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:33 pm #514526

I am still wondering why everyone keeps calling trekchems OP when styptic and sulphur have always been superior.

Anyway. Treckchems would have been fine if they simply healed less and had a low OD. Makes them useful but not OP.

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