Melee combat sucks

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PKPenguin321
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Melee combat sucks

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:20 am #568877

I keep seeing shit like this what with there being some discussion of stuns lately:
Image
And what bugs me about this is that it assumes that "potential fights" that occur within melee range is an inherently good thing, which is capital B Bullshit. Pure hit-on-hit raw damage melee combat is fundamentally not fun unless you're severely contrarian. This is not a new idea and has been joked about for actual years with a perpetual tongue-in-cheek attitude ("heh, i clicked that guy until he went sideways, im so good at this game"). Melee fights fucking suck! Having to click on your opponents sprite directly 20 times while you both spaz out like horny fruitflies running in random directions isn't fun. Getting donked over the head exactly twice and then suddenly you move significantly slower because our slowdown works in tiers instead of just directly scaling to health sucks. What makes combat actually interesting is every mechanic that isn't "click on this guy until he falls down."

SS14 has acknowledged this and now uses a new system where clicking in a direction makes you fire off an entity that sweeps like a baseball bat or jabs forward like a spear, and that's actually kind of cool because it is in and of itself a mechanic that you can get good at and play around. The SS13 system, meanwhile, has basically no skill floor or ceiling. It's quite literally just walking in pretty much random directions and clicking as fast as you possibly can (or just having something set up that toggles an autoclicker). Miss a click? Doesn't matter, if you don't attack anything then you don't receive any click cooldown, so continue spamming away until you get a hit. Even just adding a cooldown to missed swings would make it infinitely more interesting, because presently the amount of interestingness it has in abstract units is 0.

Were stuns bad design? Maybe, maybe not, but I would rather get stunned and die and have the fight be over in 10 seconds than get fucking carpal tunnel syndrome while I flail wildly at some asshole who is forced to do the same back to me for five minutes. This is also part of why I fucking hate knockdown replacing actual stuns, because getting knocked down doesn't mean jack fucking shit, if you get knocked down your plan doesn't change at all. You STILL just keep spamming your left click even if you get knocked down. That's all you do and that's all it will be until something fundamentally changes.

Discussion I'd like to seen't: "I'm a huge contrarian and actually I like having carpal tunnel, I win, bye bye"
Discussion I'd like to see: "Maybe if we did X then melee combat would be fundamentally more interesting."
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Armhulen
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby Armhulen » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:12 am #568914

Big agree. This isn't about stuns, this is about stupid click combat. Swinging, swing recharge times, and swing sizes, jabs, jab ranges, and jab recharges, these 6 variables applied to each weapon would already be a massive improvement to making melee combat more interesting AND make every weapon a hell of a lot more unique

Edit: maybe I'll even try mocking up my idea in code of how this should work, but i'm not enthusiastic about making the entire swing jab system alone
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby NecromancerAnne » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:38 am #568924

Hard disabling someone with the press of a button is by no means a good thing, and the alternative being a click is only just a mildly better than terrible alternative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't move away from stuns, we definitely need something like swings to make it less of a click fest.

Only thing being how exactly you telegraph a jab from a swing. Maybe like how hieroclub works with the cardinal points from where you click giving different effects?

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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby terranaut » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:07 am #568929

The possibility of hard disabling someone with the click of a button is what added paranoia to the game but every pr that touches on combat seeks to make it more fair and balanced and accessible to all parties, and then for some reason people are surprised and even upset people take to valid hunting. You'd never try to valid hunt a Ling with parasting because you know you'd eat shit and if someone tried to get too close to you one too many times you'd be scared, rightfully so.
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby NecromancerAnne » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:59 pm #568939

Killing people is dead easy that you don't even need one clicks. It isnt better or more paranoia driven, you just need to get gud.

More importantly, having experienced paralings in the form of fulps bloodsuckers, I can assure you that this changed nothing and the only thing vamps did with their parasting was murderbone with their onetap and kill everyone who fought them by using their onetap. To think this isn't how things will go is ridiculous, since that is how combat is still defined even now as the remaining onetap victory tools are all that is used. A quick observation of terry and bagil is all you truly need to see what I mean.

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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:15 pm #568980

NecromancerAnne wrote:Hard disabling someone with the press of a button is by no means a good thing, and the alternative being a click is only just a mildly better than terrible alternative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't move away from stuns, we definitely need something like swings to make it less of a click fest.

Only thing being how exactly you telegraph a jab from a swing. Maybe like how hieroclub works with the cardinal points from where you click giving different effects?

SS14 which I am too lazy to boot up currently literally has a grey entity that fires off and can swing or jab forward, here is my epic artists rendition + cool ideas
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby Sheodir » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:16 pm #568982

PKPenguin321 wrote:
NecromancerAnne wrote:Hard disabling someone with the press of a button is by no means a good thing, and the alternative being a click is only just a mildly better than terrible alternative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't move away from stuns, we definitely need something like swings to make it less of a click fest.

Only thing being how exactly you telegraph a jab from a swing. Maybe like how hieroclub works with the cardinal points from where you click giving different effects?

SS14 which I am too lazy to boot up currently literally has a grey entity that fires off and can swing or jab forward, here is my epic artists rendition + cool ideas
Spoiler:
Image

Is this doable in BYOND in any way though

I ask this earnestly I'm illiterate in the ways of the bizarro code
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:18 pm #568984

considering we have pixel projectiles that work basically in the same way (they proc a hit when their sprite overlaps yours) i'd say yeah

also it doesnt have to be the only solution to making melee combat good, if you can think of something else please spitball it ITT
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby BeeSting12 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:56 pm #570122

Bump. SS14 style combat would be pretty cool, our current combat is largely ping based.

Here's maybe how it would work: Clicking anywhere with help intent just faces you that way as it does now. Clicking any direction with harm intent swings your melee weapon. This would hit anyone who is standing in the three tiles closest to you in the direction you swing. The first person hit will take the most damage, or could potentially block the attack for everyone else. If it has the sharp flag, it will cause cuts, otherwise just brute damage/bruising.

Clicking directly on a person is a targetted attack and thus thrusts the melee weapon at them without risking collateral damage, this would be more likely to cause penetration assuming the weapon has the sharp flag (the new wound, is that still a thing?). Targetted attacks are the only way to hit downed people. If you are downed and swinging a melee weapon, you will do damage to standing people's feet and other downed people.

This new system also gives potential for longer ranged melee weapons. I would also be able to support necromancer's stunbaton change (making them do stamina damage) since it would be less of a dumb game of yakety sax.
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:11 am #570125

I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby Sheodir » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:18 am #570126

oranges wrote:I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:45 am #570128

oranges wrote:I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

Okay hear me out, what if we literally just made melee weapons into pseudo-guns that fire a really short range bullet and that's how it would work. That's what professional games do (for example TF2's melee weapons fire hitscan, which is also used by guns) and in our case it would cut out the vast majority of the work. I think we even already have a system in place to make projectiles die out after a set distance. I think after the initial refactor of all melee weapons, the only tricky part to code would be making a "swinging" projectile.
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i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:03 am #570136

I imagine doing what PKP described wouldn't be incredibly difficult, just time consuming/tedious. I have no idea where to start on the swinging thing but Shaps (I think?) coded a sledgehammer that acts in a manner similar to what I described. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do any of this right now, maybe in a couple months :p
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DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day


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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:28 am #570138

PKPenguin321 wrote:
oranges wrote:I'm not opposed to changing to a swing based system for melee, but who's willing to drive the project through to completion and test it?

Okay hear me out, what if we literally just made melee weapons into pseudo-guns that fire a really short range bullet and that's how it would work. That's what professional games do (for example TF2's melee weapons fire hitscan, which is also used by guns) and in our case it would cut out the vast majority of the work. I think we even already have a system in place to make projectiles die out after a set distance. I think after the initial refactor of all melee weapons, the only tricky part to code would be making a "swinging" projectile.

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There is absolutely not justification not to take the time to do this properly, we're not on a timeline

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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:26 pm #570234

I don't see how it would be "improper," since the idea behind what's being proposed for a jab from a melee weapon is that it literally shoots off an entity that hits people. Obviously you'd change it to not use most of the systems that guns do like ammo, the only part you would keep would be the code that fires off a fancy pixel projectile.

I might be misunderstanding you
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Re: Melee combat sucks

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:59 pm #570245

if you can't see why it's improper please don't get involved in developing this then.


edit: if someone is willing to go through with this I want to see a design doc first.

Also, we should likely implement this too https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HJzKOr4hU


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