Hitscan laser feedback thread

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Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby oranges » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:09 pm #592324

Please post here if you participated in the hitscan test merges and provide any commentary/feedback you have.

if you did not participate, I don't care about your opinion and will delete your posts and ban you from the coding subforums for 1 month
If you still want to share, go to - viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28613

I will check every poster for round participation.



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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby kieth4 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:29 pm #592331

So much fucking fun man. This is the way to go. You could possibly nerf damage/fire speed now but it's a fun change. Merge please

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Eskjjlj » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:44 pm #592338

Played a couple round with these. Was fun for me but not for those on the receiving end. :awoosmug:

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Qbmax32 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:06 am #592351

i like it
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby CoffeeDragon16 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:19 am #592358

I haven't fucked with it in a round much yet, but I spent ~30 minutes fucking about in the thunderdome with laser guns. So far it seems like a flat buff to lasers all around, which is interesting. I wasn't expecting that, as isn't the purpose of shifting station weaponry to lasers to generally reduce lethality of the guns? This seems counterintuitive, or am I misunderstanding? While it is a little 'cleaner', old projectile lasers have the travel time as something stopping it from being only point-and-click that this removes. The lack of travel time does seem to be an equalizer in terms of lag, though. I'll leave some more thoughts once I play some sec in a bit, this is just how I've felt from shooting around with it for a bit.

Eh, yeah, after playing some sec I feel the same. It's mostly just a flat buff to lasers. I think the instant travel times help a LOT when dealing with someone running from you, it's very hard to get away from hitscan lasers.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Bytube » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:59 am #592374

Ohhhhh boy. Just played a round with this testmerge.

I get that lasers needed a buff, but making them instantly hit the target makes them too powerful. If you're up against someone who has good aim you're fucked since they will pretty much never miss, and there's no way to dodge them now. Most counters to lasers aren't accessible by most roles too, so the only thing you can do when up against lasers is to just hope that the gun is empty.

In the round I played security pretty much steamrolled troublesome crew members since they could instantly hit them from any distance, and if a group of sec officers are firing on someone that person has no chance of getting out of it. Having security be this powerful with just disablers removes most of the threat antags would've given before the merge.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby SuperNovaa41 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:51 am #592440

I do not like it. In it's current state a single person with good aim can absolutely decimate anyone by using a single laser gun. I get eguns are shit and need an upgrade, but this is way too drastic. Not only that but it lowers the skillcap of eguns significantly, aswell as giving sec an advantage sure, but traitors even more so. I don't get why we had to kill shotguns and then make eguns overpowered all of a sudden.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:04 am #592442

Completely unfair to whoever is getting shot at, barely any counter-play to getting shot at anymore. You could argue that by nerfing laser damage we could balance it, but IMO hitscan is very clumsy and outdated feeling and normal projectiles are better. -1

Edit: I'd love if we added some sort of niche with hitscan weapons, but slapping the hitscan label onto the already established balance of disablers and lasers does not seem like a good choice for game balance.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Bdudy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:50 am #592457

I find them very enjoyable to use. However, they make for quite the one sided fight. You have to be actively trying if you intend to miss, and there's very little you can do on the receiving end.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Polish_User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:27 am #592487

Played a round with them as HoS and yes hitscan seems like a little bit of an overkill. It was a cult shift delta station (keep in mind that they had a very good base) and we stomped them with disablers/lasers.
Was it fun for me and security players?
Sure.
Was it fun for the culties?
I highly doubt that.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby kieth4 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:08 am #592500

Terry sec is already super strong and robust so this probably won't make a dent in the win rate for them. This could be an important buff for US servers where the sec teams and players are absolutely dented and unrobust

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby kieth4 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:09 am #592501

Polish_User wrote:Played a round with them as HoS and yes hitscan seems like a little bit of an overkill. It was a cult shift delta station (keep in mind that they had a very good base) and we stomped them with disablers/lasers.
Was it fun for me and security players?
Sure.
Was it fun for the culties?
I highly doubt that.


The cult base had 1 person in it to be fair. Also, mirror shields counter disablers and shit.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:12 am #592512

well they did, until someone merged the removal PR sadge

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby kieth4 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:53 am #592524

This as a whole could be a great excuse to add more laser counters. Or reflectors. The main thing is, they are fun. They should be balanced around hitscan imo

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Nexofas » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:27 pm #592544

kieth4 wrote:This as a whole could be a great excuse to add more laser counters. Or reflectors. The main thing is, they are fun. They should be balanced around hitscan imo

I agree on this. It is a significant buff to laser weapons, which made them more reliable at longer ranges. As much as lasers did need hitscan mechanic we may need as much laser counters. Maybe makeshift reflector coats which gets destroyed after few reflects and cannot be carried in bags etc.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby serxule » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 pm #592587

it is, much too overpowered, hitscan lasers have no stray and hit the exact limb you're targeting, which means you can husk people easier and kill them easier, not to mention mech lasers which crit in 3 shots, and you cant avoid lasers at all, meaning the only way to survive a laser gun is to not be in sight, its literally aimbot death lasers, its not balanced and we didn't have hitscan lasers for a reason.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Bytube » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:10 pm #592630

serxule wrote:it is, much too overpowered, hitscan lasers have no stray and hit the exact limb you're targeting, which means you can husk people easier and kill them easier, not to mention mech lasers which crit in 3 shots, and you cant avoid lasers at all, meaning the only way to survive a laser gun is to not be in sight, its literally aimbot death lasers, its not balanced and we didn't have hitscan lasers for a reason.


Also to add to this, turrets are extremely overpowered since they are not player controlled.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby steampunch » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:26 pm #592650

Tried a solid hour and a half round on Bagil on it and it frankly sucks eggs. I'm all for buffing lasers in some way because currently the crew feels toothless against hordes of swarm antags they deal with through dynamic, but this is too much. The answer to current lasers being fairly easy to dodge isn't to make them practically impossible to dodge.I saw some poor schmuck get hit by a few stray lasers that he couldn't reasonably avoid and immediately go into crit cause he was already somewhat hurt. Turrets are comically powerful in that they have both hitscan lasers and pinpoint NPC accuracy. Saw them even more in action against a bad dude outside the shuttle, who would be dead if he didn't rush the reflective vest. Despite being in an ideal cover position, the shots hit him before he could react and go into cover. The speed and rapid fire rate altogether nullifies any use ballistic guns had, along with most melee items in the game.

I really don't know why we've taken simply faster lasers off the table, cause that's the best solution I can think of. Too many things need changed for this to be enjoyable otherwise, and I think there are other parts of the game that need the time and focus it'd take.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:37 pm #592652

There's no concern about lasers being easy to dodge, and this isn't an attempt to fix that.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby skoglol » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:40 pm #592653

Observed a round or two with it without being aware it was a TM, and I must say it looks beautiful. Emitters should use this regardless of outcome with handheld lasers.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:24 pm #592661

skoglol wrote:Observed a round or two with it without being aware it was a TM, and I must say it looks beautiful. Emitters should use this regardless of outcome with handheld lasers.


Hitscan emitters aren't part of the testmerge, it's already in.

I have played a few bagil rounds but I think I've only seen one particularly distinct instance of where there was a large shootout with the weapons. A spacewalking ling who was in the ablative trenchcoat was bashing on a reinforced window of the shuttle, and security gathered around with their disablers and started firing down on him.

He soaked almost all of it but the damage was coming in pretty quick. There wasn't really any way for security to miss or not effectively hit the guy all at once, and the only genuine reason he was soaking so much damage was because of that coat providing him a whopping 60% energy resistance and 50% deflection shooting a few bolts back into security. Mitigation is maybe more important than ever, which is just as well given energy armor is the highest around across the board, so anyone with decent armor should be fine. That said, if the fact they don't deviate in flight is true, that should be changed. Pinpoint limb targeting with hitscan weapons can make many armors, like the ablative vest (the ones cargo can order) fairly redundant unless we want to move towards giving security arm guards and leg guards.

Other than that, I need to play more to get a good feel about just how much of an impact this will have. Honestly, I think given how close people are to each other in most engagements, it may only be important for firing down maint and down hallways, and not in the usually cramped spaces of rooms. Hitscan doesn't really matter if the amount of time a laser projectile would have travelled in a fight is near instant anyway, and in a room that's maybe four or five tiles wide that's not really a large difference.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby saprasam » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:43 pm #592664

i dont think its good for the game at all
having every single common egun in the game be hitscan is deranged to me and its gonna make the game either incredibly frustrating or incredibly easy depending on if you're on the receiving end or not
i will leave this on a note
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby CoffeeDragon16 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:14 am #592674

Yeah, I was the trenchcoated guy NecromancerAnne and Steampunch were talking about. That round really showed me how crucial reflector gear is for antagging now. If I didn't pick it up, I would have died in my first confrontation with people with lasers despite being a juiced up abductor. On another round, I was effectively dead the moment I got within line of sight of a guy with a laser gun for >3 seconds. Though, lasers are a counter to nightmares, so that isn't pressing. I feel like this long term could end up with reflective gear ending up being a must-have for antags. Usually this entails Some Bullshit like a looted armory for the trench, or carp and desword. I think that all of the reflective solutions we have right now are in the hands of the baddies by the time they're kicking the stations ass so much that Security can't reasonably deal with it. I think some adjustments could be made around this (that probably should have already been done) what with carp and desword getting their reflection rate nerfed to not be "i am invincible now", and more ghetto solutions like Sparkezels' mirror shield idea coming into play.

I talked to Sparkezel specifically about their thoughts on why the lasers would be good, and the most answer I got was "because I liked the idea." While fine, this is a major change that probably should require more deliberation than "I like it." I'm unsure on how I feel about the lasers, but this doesn't fill me with confidence that it's a good change.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:42 am #592681

Lasers and the like are at least able to be EMP'd, and many of our big name antags can get emps very cheaply, and emps generally aren't difficult to make. They serve as a good pre-emptive solution than a passive one or one reliant on RNG.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby oranges » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:06 am #592690

CoffeeDragon16 wrote:IWhile fine, this is a major change that probably should require more deliberation than "I like it."

I don't really understand the point of saying that while in the thread for that deliberation

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby CoffeeDragon16 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:22 am #592692

I mean from Sparkezel specifically as they're the one actually doing it, though others can just follow through on their own changes afterwards. Maybe deliberation isn't the right word, more about the thought that they're putting into it.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby steampunch » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:53 am #592694

NecromancerAnne wrote:Lasers and the like are at least able to be EMP'd, and many of our big name antags can get emps very cheaply, and emps generally aren't difficult to make. They serve as a good pre-emptive solution than a passive one or one reliant on RNG.


You're assuming that this is only going to be in security's hands. I'm honestly just as worried about antags (think traitor cargo techs, roboticists, etc.) who get lasers. Security doesn't really have the option to EMP the antag since most of their equipment would be fucked up. This lends itself to frustrating helpless gameplay for non-Security crew, which we already have plenty of in TG. Also, the "easy to make" EMPs you're talking about have a fairly small blast radius by default and wouldn't be hard to avoid. There's a reason you don't see EMPs often in practice to counter lasers, they're just not applicable to most situations and are costly for the user. I only ever see them against malf AIs and occasionally rampaging mechs.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:46 am #592705

Iunno man, I think anyone who gets jumped with a gun is gonna be fucked when the chips are down. You aren't going to always be ready for a fight and that's true whether you're being shot with an old laser, hitscan laser or a makarov.

Seccies meanwhile have okayish armor against lasers and disablers.

Code: Select all
armor = list(MELEE = 35, BULLET = 30, LASER = 30, ENERGY = 40, BOMB = 25, BIO = 0, RAD = 0, FIRE = 50, ACID = 50, WOUND = 10)


The armor values for the standard sec vest shows they're actually pretty robust against their own weapons. Especially disablers.

I think you're arguing from the point that anyone and everyone is entitled to a fair chance in a fight but the reality is, you're not and you're never been expected to fight fair or your assailant will not be better equipped than you. If your attacker has a laser and you don't, you die and you deal with it.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Jaredfogle » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:23 am #592731

Whoever has them can't lose a fight unless they either run out of ammo or REALLY suck. On the positive, this means security has better tools to fight antags. On the negative, this means antags have better tools to fight everyone else. Dual wielded hitscan laser guns obliterate anyone that looks at you funny, whereas before laser guns felt, at least a little more fair. Ultimately, I'm still not in favor of this change.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Qbmax32 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:52 am #592736

i think adding some cheap/makeshift ablative gear for antags to use could be a good idea to go along with hitscan lasers
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Spoiler:
angelstarri wrote:qbmax is a retard


imsxz wrote:mythic please stop you’ve hit rock bottom and you KEEP DIGGING


deedubya wrote:I'll defend to the death your right to scream "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" on a constant basis, but I'll also equally defend the right of people to call you a fuckin' pillock for doing it.

datorangebottle wrote:what, not having to act like customer service in a volunteer customer service position?

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Plapatin wrote:i AM the senate

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby bugstep » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:59 am #592754

i think that if the change necessitates adding a cheap/easy way to completely negate the effects of the change, maybe it wasn't a good idea in the first place.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby gum disease » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:09 am #592758

If I can consistently hit people with EU ping on Bagil, shit's fucked.
There needs to be something to counter this, it's too one-sided. I've seen more people playing sec post-change though, so lmao.

This, however, sparks joy:
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Kokonut » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:14 am #592767

played in a tramstation/hitscan lasers testmerge round, trams are awesome but people getting instantly disabled with 3 clicks across the screen sucks balls

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Sus » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:02 am #592771

tiders with disablers are OP

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Arcanemusic » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:04 pm #592810

From what I've seen in-round, it looks a lot easier to hit in certain circumstances, like with standing targets, or 2 targets moving at similar speeds. Once their speeds change, things get a lot more difficult to catch the two targets.

One piece of feedback I've heard was that players were interested in mechs having hitscan lasers as well, since mech combat is always a lot slower and subject to the same issues as lasers do, but with significant slowdown. Not sure I fully agree with it, but I said I'd parrot that off.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby toadtheloser » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:50 pm #592816

After playing a round or two of this, I found it's still possible to dodge lasers, though this is mainly done through pure pattern recognition and reading your opponent.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Sparkezel » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:20 pm #592820

I made an update though its only on bagil for now. Basically laser damage now drops off with range unless pressure is below 50 kPa, I also limited laser range to 15. I don't mind returning hitscan laser to mechs though if thats what people want.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Intercept0r » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:32 pm #592822

Like:
* Puts the "OH MY GOD" into "OH MY GOD HE HAS A LASERGUN"
* Having projectile and hitscan mechanics is good variety
* Hitscan makes this a better weapon to chase a fleeing tator in a crowded corridor - less incidental fire
* Aesthetically pleasing

Dislike:
* Hitscan increased hitrate by probably x3
* I feel nerf should focus on energy weapon weaknesses: battery size and itemsize.

I made an update though its only on bagil for now. Basically laser damage now drops off with range unless pressure is below 50 kPa, I also limited laser range to 15.


Any visual indicators of damage dropoff?

How does it affect range vs wound chance?

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Fhaxaris » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:01 pm #592827

Qbmax32 wrote:i think adding some cheap/makeshift ablative gear for antags to use could be a good idea to go along with hitscan lasers


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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Cobby » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:46 pm #592847

readding emp doesnt seem very sensible, in the sense that you either have le epic gear check and rng or u lose.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby oranges » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:01 pm #592850

I will be running this experiment for a few more days and then probably calling it good, there was a very visceral reaction against it in the beginning so will be curious to see what opinions are at the end.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Capsandi » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:50 pm #592861

From my experience, the lasers seem to be of similar accuracy against fast targets, such as crew at full hp, but are now highly effective against slower targets. Tank-like enemies, like tarantulas, may need to be rebalanced, other than that, I don't see any huge buffs/nerfs.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Sparkezel » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:02 pm #592864

Intercept0r wrote:
Any visual indicators of damage dropoff?

How does it affect range vs wound chance?


In regards to the first question, I have a feeling that whatever I will try to do there will come out ugly, you would see the segments, so I believe its better to leave it as it is.
About the second question, the damage will drop off, and with lower damage the wound chance gets lower. If you want to wound with same efficiency you will need to be in range of 4 tiles from your target, after that the damage drops off by multiples of 0.8 ( damage x 0.8 per tile)

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby steampunch » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:22 pm #592871

NecromancerAnne wrote:Iunno man, I think anyone who gets jumped with a gun is gonna be fucked when the chips are down. You aren't going to always be ready for a fight and that's true whether you're being shot with an old laser, hitscan laser or a makarov.

Seccies meanwhile have okayish armor against lasers and disablers.

Code: Select all
armor = list(MELEE = 35, BULLET = 30, LASER = 30, ENERGY = 40, BOMB = 25, BIO = 0, RAD = 0, FIRE = 50, ACID = 50, WOUND = 10)


The armor values for the standard sec vest shows they're actually pretty robust against their own weapons. Especially disablers.

I think you're arguing from the point that anyone and everyone is entitled to a fair chance in a fight but the reality is, you're not and you're never been expected to fight fair or your assailant will not be better equipped than you. If your attacker has a laser and you don't, you die and you deal with it.


With that philosophy TG loses a lot of its complexity and becomes rock paper scissors with gear. That's really not enjoyable, especially when the majority of the players will end up with paper and only a small handful in a round get scissors. The only valid solution is to always get a laser, and that's not something I think we should encourage in design. Despite what certain people say, there's not much fun in being gunned down with no real counterplay, and from what I've seen, that's the experience for anyone on the receiving end of a laser with this change.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:38 am #592891

steampunch wrote:With that philosophy TG loses a lot of its complexity and becomes rock paper scissors with gear. That's really not enjoyable, especially when the majority of the players will end up with paper and only a small handful in a round get scissors. The only valid solution is to always get a laser, and that's not something I think we should encourage in design. Despite what certain people say, there's not much fun in being gunned down with no real counterplay, and from what I've seen, that's the experience for anyone on the receiving end of a laser with this change.


So far I've honestly maybe seen exactly one concrete instance where the flashlights actually made a significant difference over old, and that was pinging an assistant down a long hallway in a barrage of disabler fire. He was fucked, but so was everyone down that hall who caught those same beams and toppled over around him.

I personally have had exactly one chance to get my hands on a gun, which was during a blob fight. And for my efforts I blew up the captain with a high capacity welder tank on accident while he was fighting a blobbbernaut. Thankfully I helped him back up but colleterial is a massive concern with these guns and I've often been friendly fired since the changes. You will almost inevitably shoot something you weren't intending off screen.

I would still argue that anyone with a weapon is still going to mostly be in the favourable position before and after this change, and I also don't think most people are as powerless as they think in most situations. Believing a naked assistant to be paper and lasers scissors is ignoring just how much power the naked hands have on /tg/. I've seen naked assistants topple several people at once and escape capture purely with shoves, body throws and tabling. Environmental combat is as strong as ever, and that favours close quarters more than flashlights. And anyone can perform maint-fu. It's as good as it is for a reason. Ranged will mostly favour long sightlines and predominantly that means chasing someone down with a ranged weapon is a little easier except when in a very snakey stretch of tunnelling in maint or hallway.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Bucovineanu » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:36 am #592900

Fully fresh feedback

At this point, with this current implementation, it's absolutely terrible. From what I've played it severely upsets the balance of combat and reduces the skill involved. The decrease in damage does not make up for the fact that in an open hallway almost any antag who hasn't specifically prepared to fight laserguns is basically dead the moment shots get fired. Sure, if a player is REALLY bad they're going to miss, but with hitscan it's "click here to kill valid".

I'd dig a new weapon that did hitscan but I don't see how you can make this work for every laser weapon.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby CoffeeDragon16 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:13 am #592930

One thing I noticed in a round: Laser guns now totally obliterate xenomorphs, and is extremely one-sided. I bought a hell gun and I was two shotting xenos, and I believe the regular laser gun was also very very easy to kill them. Given how one sided it looked, I think some adjustment to antag laser resistances (or laser projectile damage) could be important so crew doesn't just buy a laser gun crate and nullify the antags with easy point and click.
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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:38 pm #593059

Xenos have it pretty easy already, they don't deserve shit.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby Somepan » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:29 pm #593068

I don't think anyone mentioned it before but it also made swarmers insanely strong, the ais will shoot you with an incredible accuracy and the sentient ones will just circle around you out of reach, if you don't have a gun, which is most of the crew, you can fight them nor ignore them, you can't do anything and it's pretty much impossible to fight.

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Re: Hitscan laser feedback thread

Postby SkeletalElite » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:44 pm #593124

As overpowered as they are I really like using them and wish there was someway they could exist and be balanced just because I think having combat where your projectiles are so slow you can literally move out of their way isn't exactly something to strive for IMO.

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