Progression Traitor Feedback

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BrianBackslide
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by BrianBackslide » #645381

Bottom post of the previous page:

Sleeper protocol would work better if it were a skill chip instead of requiring an operating computer to do.

I think kidnapping objectives should be more available than roundstart as they are often much more difficult to perform over simply killing the target.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Pandarsenic » #645496

Calling a battlecruiser should absolutely unlock the full nuke ops uplink options. Otherwise you have to do stupid junk like hook up with the ops and give them your TCs and have them buy you stuff.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Shadowflame909 » #645668

>Icebox
>Get kidnap objective
>Greater fore maint
>"where is greater fore maint"
>ask admin whos the mapper. >he says "idk maints are weird but it should be between gateway and eva"
>Go there with my target
>None of the maint doors are named they just say maint doors.
>"Its probably one of the solar engi rooms."
>it isnt
>die from another antag.
>I check it out as a ghost, and sure enough it was the thin unnamed hallway between gateway and eva

Can we blacklist maintenance rooms from kidnap extraction targets? That or name all the doors after the specific one? Because roundstart navigators dont even have these maint rooms listed.

I got dynamic'd but still, I don't think anyone knows the names of the maint rooms anyways. Keep it in the public job-specific rooms!
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by cacogen » #645709

I told him on the PR that using Greater and Lesser made no sense because it gave no directional information but naturally I was ignored.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by san7890 » #645715

cacogen wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:49 am I told him on the PR that using Greater and Lesser made no sense because it gave no directional information but naturally I was ignored.
The secret reason is that I accidentally swapped Greater and Lesser Fore Maintenance in the PR and I keep wanting to fix it but get sidetracked. The nomenclature makes some degree of sense when you don't fuck it up like I had.

Also please do not be obtuse and say you were "naturally ignored", I replied to you and you did not respond.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by sinfulbliss » #647659

I just watched some old traitor rounds and compared it with current prog tot, and I really have to say it was much more fun before. The main reasons, at least that I can gather, are:

1) It was the ultimate sandbox. 20 TC, 2-3 objectives you can complete for fluff text at the end of the round (or ignore), and your whole kit available roundstart. Go wild.

2) Teamwork. There was nothing more enjoyable in a traitor round than using codewords to find fellow traitors, and team up to create a syndie alliance. You could help each other greentext, or just kill people - but having a buddy made everything more fun regardless of how you chose to play.

Prog tot severely hinders these two gameplay aspects of traitor, to the point of essentially deleting them, and here's why:

1) Traitors now have locks and progression instead of a sandbox. They're intended to complete objectives over time, unlock rep and weapons, and eventually unlock their final objective as their endgame. Instead of traitors making their own fun and creating their own stories in the spirit of a roleplay game, they are pushed into predesigned cookie-cutter tasks which at the end of the day aren't and can never be as fun as a sandbox.

Bugging offices and items, killing pets, breaking lathes and dusting null rods and fireaxes is just not fun or exciting. On LRP all of these also make you valid, so not only are they unfun, but they frequently get traitors round-removed or sent to perma where their traitor round comes to a close. Not to mention the minimum round-time to reach a final objective is only achieved on a small fraction of med-highpop LRP rounds.

2) There is absolutely no incentive for traitors to work together anymore. Their role revolves around completing objectives, and that is rarely a two-man job. It's still useful to find out at least who you can side with if push comes to shove, but teaming up with a traitor buddy (e.g. buying a surplus crate with your combined 40 TC or creating a zombie outbreak), and really sharing your rounds together, is something that rarely happens now.

I felt compelled to write this because after watching old traitor, it highlights just how much was lost with progression traitor. You know there is a problem if players are sitting in lockers for 20-30 minutes to unlock their items so they can then just play it like the sandbox they want it to be. This is a totally valid strategy when completing even mundane objectives risks getting you round-removed. I also don't think this issue can or will be pawned off to admins to any degree of success.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Shadowflame909 » #648583

I think end-game progression tator objectives need a large difficulty decrease. Currently they flop when they have to steal every high-end weapon that every other traitor is also guarding. Like Hos's gun, Hand Tele, CE's boots, etc.

Mainly I and a lot of other players just miss Romerol, and we have never seen a non-adminbus cascade.

These should be chaotic round ends! Not rarely seen and locked away potential endings! If someone can steal 1 heavily guarded station weapon. Syndicate should let them create a zombie apocalypse/send in the nukie ship/become a space dragon/cascade the sm and have it eat the station.

It'd be fun!
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649130

Shadowflame909 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:54 pm I think end-game progression tator objectives need a large difficulty decrease. Currently they flop when they have to steal every high-end weapon that every other traitor is also guarding. Like Hos's gun, Hand Tele, CE's boots, etc.

Mainly I and a lot of other players just miss Romerol, and we have never seen a non-adminbus cascade.

These should be chaotic round ends! Not rarely seen and locked away potential endings! If someone can steal 1 heavily guarded station weapon. Syndicate should let them create a zombie apocalypse/send in the nukie ship/become a space dragon/cascade the sm and have it eat the station.

It'd be fun!
This is very funny cause I saw a manuel admin or player bitching the exact opposite on this viewpoint
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649131

sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:00 pm 2) There is absolutely no incentive for traitors to work together anymore. Their role revolves around completing objectives, and that is rarely a two-man job. It's still useful to find out at least who you can side with if push comes to shove, but teaming up with a traitor buddy (e.g. buying a surplus crate with your combined 40 TC or creating a zombie outbreak), and really sharing your rounds together, is something that rarely happens now.
your argument here is the prior incentive was pooling your TC.

you can do that under the new system too so I don't really understand the point.

If you're not able to work with other traitors for no reason that says more about you than the change I think.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649132

also most of the complaints here can be resolved by tuning objectives but I don't really see many people clamoring to do that.

make kill objectives worth a lot more, add more objective types to break up the burglary meta.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by CPTANT » #649169

oranges wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:09 am also most of the complaints here can be resolved by tuning objectives but I don't really see many people clamoring to do that.

make kill objectives worth a lot more, add more objective types to break up the burglary meta.
Please actually read the thread because literally half the people are saying that.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by sinfulbliss » #649176

oranges wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:08 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:00 pm 2) There is absolutely no incentive for traitors to work together anymore. Their role revolves around completing objectives, and that is rarely a two-man job. It's still useful to find out at least who you can side with if push comes to shove, but teaming up with a traitor buddy (e.g. buying a surplus crate with your combined 40 TC or creating a zombie outbreak), and really sharing your rounds together, is something that rarely happens now.
your argument here is the prior incentive was pooling your TC.

you can do that under the new system too so I don't really understand the point.

If you're not able to work with other traitors for no reason that says more about you than the change I think.
The forced prior incentive was to buy things that require over 20 TC. You had to pool TC with another traitor to do this. Now no items require over 20 TC, so this removes that previous incentive for teaming up.

The optional incentive for teaming up was to help each other greentext, or to have a buddy to enjoy the traitor sandbox with. Greentexting doesn't really exist anymore since objectives never end, and most objectives are non-impactful and individualistic, so teamwork to complete them is unhelpful. "Hey, can you help me deconstruct the cargo protolathe so I can get 1 TC" is not something you'd ever ask. You can find another traitor to play with still, but they are going to be doing their objectives and you're going to be doing yours. This in itself incentivizes traitors to operate more independently.

The fact you don't think prog tot has done away with most tot teamwork says more about the fact you don't play than it says about me, by the way..
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649210

that is not a very strong incentive, so I find it very hard to believe that that was the sole piece of glue holding together tot teamwork.

the primary reason to work with others is and always has been story telling purposes, that you think it's soley mechanically based still continues to reveal more about your play style than anything.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649211

CPTANT wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:54 am
oranges wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:09 am also most of the complaints here can be resolved by tuning objectives but I don't really see many people clamoring to do that.

make kill objectives worth a lot more, add more objective types to break up the burglary meta.
Please actually read the thread because literally half the people are saying that.
sorry that was not clear

what i mean is that I don't see actual changes in the tracker.

The posts in the forum thread are useful but they don't actually achieve anything.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #649231

Yeah exactly. If nobody can maintain it, it should go the way of hivemind.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Pandarsenic » #649255

oranges wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:06 am
Shadowflame909 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:54 pm I think end-game progression tator objectives need a large difficulty decrease. Currently they flop when they have to steal every high-end weapon that every other traitor is also guarding. Like Hos's gun, Hand Tele, CE's boots, etc.

Mainly I and a lot of other players just miss Romerol, and we have never seen a non-adminbus cascade.

These should be chaotic round ends! Not rarely seen and locked away potential endings! If someone can steal 1 heavily guarded station weapon. Syndicate should let them create a zombie apocalypse/send in the nukie ship/become a space dragon/cascade the sm and have it eat the station.

It'd be fun!
This is very funny cause I saw a manuel admin or player bitching the exact opposite on this viewpoint
I think there's a huge gulf in endgame obj difficulties and fun levels.

Cascade can be made impossible, even if you do the funny thing, by an engineering team skilled enough to prevent delamination (which isn't actually that hard), and is kinda cool the first few times but mostly it's just an eyesore to look at.

Space Dragon transformation rules but is carp-dependent unless you can use a plushie carp for it? I've never seen someone try. Also, it could maybe be a little stronger.
Romerol rules but is too infrequent.
Syndicate Battlecruiser rules, but Pirates are pretty boring and weak by comparison. Silver Scales are even more meh.

Station Weakpoint is (was?) famously the most hated endgame, for a dozen well-explored reasons that are pretty much all correct.
oranges wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:22 pm that is not a very strong incentive, so I find it very hard to believe that that was the sole piece of glue holding together tot teamwork.

the primary reason to work with others is and always has been story telling purposes, that you think it's soley mechanically based still continues to reveal more about your play style than anything.
I would also point out that progtots working together still happens plenty, when people can be bothered to ID each other, so the loss of sharing for Expensive Stuff doesn't seem to be an issue to me? I think a bigger problem by far is that most objectives (bug stuff and carry it around, put bugs in offices, kill pets) have no real gain from working together and they don't tell a story in any real way.

Nobody goes, "Damn, remember that round where I bugged the captain's office?" if something didn't go horribly wrong.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649266

Adding some co-op objectives seems like it would provide the mechanical icentives sinful seems to need
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by iwishforducks » #649317

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I think prog tots are flawed from the start. Old traitor was, and I quote a friend on this, “our best antag because there is no bullshit, you are given tools and are told to do whatever.” The fluff objectives were great- they gave a reason to do things, but ultimately we encouraged you to do whatever you wanted. There never was any mechanical reason to follow these objectives. Now it seems like we’ve forgotten why traitors were our best antagonist, by mechanically incentivizing fetch quests, and therefor de-incentivizing interacting with the massive sandbox.

I agree that there should be a time lock on some items. But prog tots just aren’t the way to go.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649353

if your viewpoint starts out at "revert prog traitors" then there is no productive conversation to be had because I am not remotely interested in doing that.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Striders13 » #649392

How about making them optional, like contractors, you purchase a 20tc kit that gives you prog objectives. That way you can still go do these objectives if you don't have a gimmick in mind. Item time lock can be moved to explosives and nukie gear only.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by oranges » #649397

if a revert is out of the window, a change that essentially reverts them also is what the hell are you smoking
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by sinfulbliss » #649398

Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:31 pm I would also point out that progtots working together still happens plenty, when people can be bothered to ID each other, so the loss of sharing for Expensive Stuff doesn't seem to be an issue to me? I think a bigger problem by far is that most objectives (bug stuff and carry it around, put bugs in offices, kill pets) have no real gain from working together and they don't tell a story in any real way.
SinfulBliss wrote:You can find another traitor to play with still, but they are going to be doing their objectives and you're going to be doing yours. This in itself incentivizes traitors to operate more independently.
I don't see progtots working together. Maybe it is more common on Manuel where RP is higher and players need less mechanical incentives to play in certain ways, though. Now that I think about it I saw prog tots working together a bit more on Fulp which is MRP, but even then that was only when the stars align and they had matching bug/destroy objectives or something
oranges wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:22 pmthe primary reason to work with others is and always has been story telling purposes, that you think it's soley mechanically based still continues to reveal more about your play style than anything.
Have you considered that the way the antag is designed can incentivize/disincentivize teamwork? Traitors can either ignore the progtot system entirely and work together to create a story (albeit without all their strong items), or they work alone to reach their final objective (which is the way the system is designed). I'm not sure why this isn't clicking for you.

If you let two bad guys loose and tell them "do whatever," there is a high likelihood they will team up. If you let two bad guys loose with two different laundry lists of things they need to do to unlock their own personal super awesome shiny treasure, they're probably not going to work together.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #649404

oranges wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:40 am if your viewpoint starts out at "revert prog traitors" then there is no productive conversation to be had because I am not remotely interested in doing that.
Are you opposed to stripping down prog traitors of some of their more contested aspects? I don't think its a problem to be fixed by adding more stuff.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Mothblocks » #649407

what specifically
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by blackdav123 » #649408

The current objectives are all so much more rigid compared to the ones we had before the rework. We used to have kill and maroon objectives and both had limitless ways of completing them like buying a syndie bomb and blowing up your target along with their whole department. Because our current kill objectives require you to recover the body for long enough to empty their pockets and plant a card or cut off their head we miss out on a lot of flavorful ways to kill like explosives or tossing them into the SM or a shuttle or space.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Shadowflame909 » #649409

True. Changing it from plant a calling card to just having them die would do so much in opening back up the sandbox potential of kills it'd be vastly worth whatever amount of accidental completions unrelated to the traitor. (Which is why the creator designed a calling card to verify you did the kill)
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Mothblocks » #649410

I'm fine with more flexible kill objectives, I don't remember many people who went for objectives as pre-progression traitors round removing often enough, but do keep in mind that you're just shifting who is pissed off, since I remember frequently hearing Manuel players upset about the propensity of the kill objectives. Not sure if calling cards were something added later on, though, I could be mistaken
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Kitfox » #649429

I'd enjoy more objectives that didn't require removing people from the round myself. I like playing pacifistic tators and sometimes it just feels like half the list is MURDER X and the ones that aren't are just 'go somewhere and plant a bug'
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Mothblocks » #649441

So what do you suggest for interesting objectives that actually treat traitors as an antagonist (as in, I really hope you're actually contributing to the antagonism of the round as a "pacifistic tator")
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Pandarsenic » #649450

Destroying the Telecomms Hub is a good objective. Destroying the lathes is, too, but it might be a bit spicier to make it destroying the (or any) Departmental Protolathe circuitboard, so it isn't just busywork of relinking it. Calling a battlecruiser is good.

For some other ideas...
  • I am a huge advocate for removing the purged AI restrictions on behavior and giving traitors an objective to purge the AI. Lots of potential for RADICAL AI RIGHTS ACTIVISM
  • Add "destroy the ore silo," watch people suddenly get REAL attentive to the progtots
  • I honestly kind of think free powersinks should at least sometimes appear as an objective
  • Another potentially interesting twist on objective sabotage is to make sure a certain high-value APC (R&D, for instance, or Robotics, or Security) is destroyed or runs out of power, encouraging people to go into maintenance to do traitor things, kill engineers to stop repairs, etc.
  • I wouldn't hate an objective to disable gravity
  • In addition to romerol, which is good, it could be ‼FUN‼ to have an objective to cause outbreaks of the Rare Diseases - real GBS, for instance, or (god help us) Jungle Fever
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by BrianBackslide » #649454

I'm a Manuel player and I want MORE kill objectives. I just don't usually take them because they aren't worth the effort to do so. Can't blow them to smithereens, can't torch them, gotta wait until AFTER they die to plant the calling card (and gotta dress them up to even plant it), Meaning I can't poison someone, plant the card, and get away before Sec shows up.

I think objectives should matter more and have more impact on the round. Many objectives don't have any mechanical reinforcement for players to care about preventing or stopping a traitor performing it. Killing pets, bugging (most) items and rooms, even destroying the Black Box don't matter mechanically in the slightest other than that we're supposed to pretend we care. There's no incentive to track down and dispose or remove bugs, which makes it feel like it's a half-finished mechanic. Heads of staff don't get any massive negative moodlet from having their beloved pet get killed. As much as people complain about it, the structural weakpoint charge is one of the better objectives as it can be stopped and there's vast consequences for failing to do so in time.

Even trying to be stealthy and under the radar can be difficult as the tools you might want to use are locked behind rep, and if you go out to gain rep then you're likely going to end up on sec's radar anyway. Maybe 2 minute synide bombs were a bit much, but if I wanted to do some grand sabotage, I'm basically limited to what tools I can find on the station and ignoring the uplink entirely.

I also think an escape/dagd/hijack objective is important. Greentexting doesn't feel the same when, in some cases, you can get it by doing absolutely nothing. It doesn't feel special when you "get away with it" when all you did were minor/petty crimes that might've gone unnoticed. The Syndicate would normally want their agents to return to them, right? In this new system they don't care at all as long as a few inconsequential things were done.

TL;DR: My main gripes are that bugging doesn't matter to the crew enough, kill objectives should be rethought to allow more creativity in their execution, escape objectives are fun and require the tot to think about their way out, and please please bring back syndie kits.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Pandarsenic » #649457

BrianBackslide wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:22 pm I'm a Manuel player and I want MORE kill objectives. I just don't usually take them because they aren't worth the effort to do so. Can't blow them to smithereens, can't torch them, gotta wait until AFTER they die to plant the calling card (and gotta dress them up to even plant it), Meaning I can't poison someone, plant the card, and get away before Sec shows up.
On top of all of that, despite being one of the highest-risk objectives, they rarely offer enough TC to break even on anything you order to make it happen
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #649481

Mothblocks wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:59 am what specifically
I was thinking a simplification of the reputation system. It's pointlessly complex for the job it is trying to do, and is very poorly thematically as stands.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Mothblocks » #649483

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:46 am
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:59 am what specifically
I was thinking a simplification of the reputation system. It's pointlessly complex for the job it is trying to do, and is very poorly thematically as stands.
Like I said I don't know much about new traitors but I think something like that is within reason. Talk to Watermelon about it since he's the one who designed that specific bit I believe
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Mothblocks » #649484

Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:07 pm Destroying the Telecomms Hub is a good objective. Destroying the lathes is, too, but it might be a bit spicier to make it destroying the (or any) Departmental Protolathe circuitboard, so it isn't just busywork of relinking it. Calling a battlecruiser is good.

For some other ideas...
  • I am a huge advocate for removing the purged AI restrictions on behavior and giving traitors an objective to purge the AI. Lots of potential for RADICAL AI RIGHTS ACTIVISM
  • Add "destroy the ore silo," watch people suddenly get REAL attentive to the progtots
  • I honestly kind of think free powersinks should at least sometimes appear as an objective
  • Another potentially interesting twist on objective sabotage is to make sure a certain high-value APC (R&D, for instance, or Robotics, or Security) is destroyed or runs out of power, encouraging people to go into maintenance to do traitor things, kill engineers to stop repairs, etc.
  • I wouldn't hate an objective to disable gravity
  • In addition to romerol, which is good, it could be ‼FUN‼ to have an objective to cause outbreaks of the Rare Diseases - real GBS, for instance, or (god help us) Jungle Fever
Pretty cool ideas, I definitely would be happy to see these (other than the AI one which is out of scope for coding feedback)
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #649487

Mothblocks wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:38 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:46 am
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:59 am what specifically
I was thinking a simplification of the reputation system. It's pointlessly complex for the job it is trying to do, and is very poorly thematically as stands.
Like I said I don't know much about new traitors but I think something like that is within reason. Talk to Watermelon about it since he's the one who designed that specific bit I believe
It will take some thinking to make a polished system. But I'll prepare a proposal
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by VexingRaven » #650206

mindstormy wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:04 pm I think my only real complaint is that the random items crates are gone. I used to always buy those and let the contents decide how I did my objectives. Now I have to actually come up with my own plans which I'm not always in the mood for.
This, honestly. The random item crate was fun and often ended up with me finding uses for items I had never really used or seen used before.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by CPTANT » #650427

Why ARE the random item crates gone? How are they incompatible with progression traitors?
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Shadowflame909 » #650462

CPTANT wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:47 pm Why ARE the random item crates gone? How are they incompatible with progression traitors?
they said in the coderbus meeting a day ago that surplus crates (120 tc worth of gear for 40 tc) was the incompatible one. The themed kit can be re-added whenever someone feels like it
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by CPTANT » #650479

Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:04 am
CPTANT wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:47 pm Why ARE the random item crates gone? How are they incompatible with progression traitors?
they said in the coderbus meeting a day ago that surplus crates (120 tc worth of gear for 40 tc) was the incompatible one. The themed kit can be re-added whenever someone feels like it
Why not just bring the amount of stuff you get down to what is acceptable then. There should be a number between 20 and 60 that is acceptable for a surplus crate to contain.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by VexingRaven » #650481

Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:04 am
CPTANT wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:47 pm Why ARE the random item crates gone? How are they incompatible with progression traitors?
they said in the coderbus meeting a day ago that surplus crates (120 tc worth of gear for 40 tc) was the incompatible one. The themed kit can be re-added whenever someone feels like it
Surplus crates are what I'm talking about. Sure it was 120 tc worth but most of the time it was like 80 tc worth of junk and useless duplicates.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by TheSmallBlue » #652139

I've been thinking about prog tot ever since it as merged and I think I finally came to the conclusion that I do not like it at all.
Old tot wasn't perfect, far from it, but it was leagues better than this. There's this sense of rush and emergency with prog tot that isn't there with old tot. Objectives that took an entire round to do in old tot now you have to do in a third of that time, which for someone like me who's anxious is a fucking hellish thing.
In old tot, I'd get the "steal research points" objective and base a plan around what my job can do. Chemist? bomb into Research. Geneticist? Hulk in. Scientist? Teleport in. Making these plans go into effect took up an entire round, so nowadays when i get a "Steal research points" objective I cannot come up with smart ways to do them, the only way I can do them is "break the glass get in fight whoever i need to fight and get out, do the next objective" which is WAY less fun.
Traitor felt like a way to use what you knew about your job to do your objectives, now it feels like a way to give security something to do (which isn't bad, it's one of the pros of prog tot, traitors are more outgoing and security have more to do (sometimes)).

I wish I could choose between the two kinds of traitor, to let the people who like prog tot play prog tot while i play old tot happily
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by HeyHey » #652267

TheSmallBlue wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:54 am I've been thinking about prog tot ever since it as merged and I think I finally came to the conclusion that I do not like it at all.
Old tot wasn't perfect, far from it, but it was leagues better than this. There's this sense of rush and emergency with prog tot that isn't there with old tot. Objectives that took an entire round to do in old tot now you have to do in a third of that time, which for someone like me who's anxious is a fucking hellish thing.
In old tot, I'd get the "steal research points" objective and base a plan around what my job can do. Chemist? bomb into Research. Geneticist? Hulk in. Scientist? Teleport in. Making these plans go into effect took up an entire round, so nowadays when i get a "Steal research points" objective I cannot come up with smart ways to do them, the only way I can do them is "break the glass get in fight whoever i need to fight and get out, do the next objective" which is WAY less fun.
Traitor felt like a way to use what you knew about your job to do your objectives, now it feels like a way to give security something to do (which isn't bad, it's one of the pros of prog tot, traitors are more outgoing and security have more to do (sometimes)).

I wish I could choose between the two kinds of traitor, to let the people who like prog tot play prog tot while I play old tot happily
Counter point this rush to complete objectives (for a tangible reward) is my favorite thing about traitor. I no longer have the same "steal a black box and kill everyone on the shuttle" objective again and again(Which had no reward anyway so it was safe to ignore.)
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by warbluke » #652277

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Progtot is too easy. Without using any TC and in about 40 minutes I was able to reach Romeral, fuck around destroying the station and escape alone on the shuttle. If someone could add extra-extra-hard objectives like stealing the whole armoury or rigging all the pods to explode or building a cloner that would be cool.
On an unrelated note, would it be possible to let people chose their final objectives? I want to cascade but the game always gives me dragon or romeral.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Pandarsenic » #652290

Reiterating that PLEASE let people choose their final objective at the start and have it weight their filler objectives based on that, or something like that, to have a sense of anticipation
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by DaydreamIQ » #652835

Speaking from personal experience the only times on MRP I've ever been interested in final objectives was when it was Battlecruiser and Cascade. Romerol is nice and all, but its not nearly as effective as Nukies plus or the Special delam that instantly ends the round. Dragon is just boring and a waste of time because its literally just dragon, congrats your final objective gets you gamered on by everyone who realised that Hulk can two shot your rifts. If we're gonna make final objectives turn you into other antags, turning them into a wizard with bluespace fuckery would be more fun imo.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by sinfulbliss » #653062

Another prog tot experience yesterday.

I wanted to do a gimmick that was at least somewhat more complex than a pure murderbone - hypnoflash someone and have them join me in my traitoring.

The hypnoflash requires a whopping 300 reputation points to unlock, and I’m on a med-highpop LRP round. My options: bug the captain’s office, kill Runtime, break a protolathe, and another assortment of 4 or so objectives that gave me no more than 20 rep, and were no less risky (kidnap and poster objectives). Laying syndie posters indeed makes you valid on LRP - or if not valid at least outs you to experienced players. Something I did not want if I’m doing a quieter hypnoflash gimmick. Instead I broke a lathe which put me at about 100 rep.

To hypnoflash I had to make mindbreaker toxin and procure some basic things to capture the target. I opted for the bread and butter of stealing a baton, since last time I fucked with a sleepypen it was too unreliable. I had time to kill to wait for some passive rep anyway.

Medbay was crawling with people and the CMO was so paranoid that he followed me into the protolathe room when I was just making a beaker for my mindbreaker, so killing Runtime was out. I checked the captain’s door multiple times but there were always sec or command loitering nearby as it was Tram.

20 minutes pass during all this. I’m still under 300 rep. The cult now has haloes. At least now sec and command are preoccupied. Finally I’m able to break into the captain’s office, my soon-to-be hypno target in tow, bug the stupid floor for the last of my rep, buy the flash and hypno them in a dark corner of undertram maints.

At this point we just decide to murderbone because half the station has haloes and honestly, there’s neither time nor room for a gimmick at this point (had I been able to do this at the 5 minute mark, we’d have the whole shift ahead of us).

This is just one example of how prog tot hurts the sandbox nature of traitor. It really forces you into making your round revolve around completing prebuilt objectives until you finally reach that 300 number, at which point you can discard your uplink and actually play it as the sandbox you want to.
Last edited by sinfulbliss on Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by cybersaber101 » #653072

DaydreamIQ wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:07 pm Speaking from personal experience the only times on MRP I've ever been interested in final objectives was when it was Battlecruiser and Cascade. Romerol is nice and all, but its not nearly as effective as Nukies plus or the Special delam that instantly ends the round. Dragon is just boring and a waste of time because its literally just dragon, congrats your final objective gets you gamered on by everyone who realised that Hulk can two shot your rifts. If we're gonna make final objectives turn you into other antags, turning them into a wizard with bluespace fuckery would be more fun imo.
Ending the round instantly seems against the whole damn point of dynamic and progression traitors
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by waterfleainc » #653099

progression traitor is strill detrimental to roleplay because it just causes too much havoc too early in the game, and while encouraging stealth in some ways, it just speeds up the rounds from what I can tell.

the new bureaucracy tools are never used because guess what there is always some other shit going on
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by PKPenguin321 » #653685

played as this a couple times and to be honest it's better than i expected! the restrictions on what equipment you can buy are light enough that they dont feel like bullshit while still being heavy enough to incentivize you to get out there and create drama. couple of nitpicks:
- variety in objectives seems pretty low, i swear like 90% of them are bugging an item/room or killing a pet
- some objectives are disproportionately difficult, like kidnapping someone (yeah good luck, go ahead and blow your cover by dragging someone kicking and screaming that youre a traitor around), and should at the very least have a much bigger reward
- axing long term objectives entirely seems like a mistake to me since once youve got your reputation you kind of lose a sense of purpose since now you're "done", maybe readd a few that the traitor starts with so they actually have some incentive to survive to the end of the round with their stolen goods or what have you

im sure there will be further tiny imbalances with how much rep/TCs you get/pay for objectives/traitor items but the system seems easy enough to tweak those painlessly. im glad my doubts about this system were proven wrong
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Re: Progression Traitor Feedback

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #653729

PKPenguin321 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:39 am- some objectives are disproportionately difficult, like kidnapping someone (yeah good luck, go ahead and blow your cover by dragging someone kicking and screaming that youre a traitor around), and should at the very least have a much bigger reward
This is the most fun objective though. A lot of the other objectives are boring I take kidnap objectives at every opportunity. Hell, I wish there was more of them.
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