/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

.....what is that coming out of the spout of the kettle

I will not regret my double posts

The little face constantly changing stresses me out and getting sad cause I just hit a badguy as security causing him to bleed just feels out of character for the game.

I like traits in Rimworld or whatever, and I like traits in SS13 because they're opt in/opt out, but moodlets are just sort of distracting.

I feel a hangman design HUD would make it distant enough to not make it depressing at low mood levels, and also give a clearer indication on how low/high your mood is, with full depression completing the hangman.

Thus players could more accurately gauge how their character feels without it being too intrusive.

oh my god D&B why do you want a hangmans noose so much

Kor wrote:The little face constantly changing stresses me out and getting sad cause I just hit a badguy as security causing him to bleed just feels out of character for the game.

I like traits in Rimworld or whatever, and I like traits in SS13 because they're opt in/opt out, but moodlets are just sort of distracting.

Its okay if you dont like mood, but can you provide actual examples of situations where you lose mood that you dislike? Everytime you say something negative about mood you come up with a situation that is not even in the game, which is disingenuous in my opinion.

Hitting people does not change your mood. Neither does dying, being low health, or killing people.

Kor doesn't even play the game, not sure what their angle is here.

I don't really mind the sprites for it, they're not very distracting and I forget they're there most of the time until my screen goes static or things slow down and I can take stock of myself

oranges wrote:Kor doesn't even play the game, not sure what their angle is here.

I played yesterday and constantly shift clicking as the little moodlet face changed to see what was wrong with me was an unwelcome distraction

Qustinnus wrote:

Kor wrote:The little face constantly changing stresses me out and getting sad cause I just hit a badguy as security causing him to bleed just feels out of character for the game.

I like traits in Rimworld or whatever, and I like traits in SS13 because they're opt in/opt out, but moodlets are just sort of distracting.

Its okay if you dont like mood, but can you provide actual examples of situations where you lose mood that you dislike? Everytime you say something negative about mood you come up with a situation that is not even in the game, which is disingenuous in my opinion.

Hitting people does not change your mood. Neither does dying, being low health, or killing people.

How is it disingenious to list a situation I literally experienced in the game within minutes of entering the round? I tried to deconvert a prisoner as a sec officer, I hit him in the head with my baton, and I got "this room is ugly" or whatever as soon as he bled on the floor. This caused part of my UI to change to a more negative sprite which I could examine for a list of warnings with no real indication of how severe "I am sad" is

I later ate a donut and loved it so much I ignored everything for the next 20 minutes or whatever.

I don't know if anyone noticed but you get a constant mood debuff when you are hulk. Hulk is supposed to be a superpower so you should at least be neutral about it but not unhappy right ?

you're not happy as hulk
you're ANGRY

area beauty is not in good shape right now you should not be getting negative mood because someone stacked blood in some obscure corner you can't see about 4 screens away
you should not be going unhinged/start to lose it from being overfed and not even fat-mutation threshold. being fat should make you depressed but why would you start to go crazy just from that?
sanity changes too quickly and has not enough tolerance. feeling a little sad is not going to make someone unhinged.

I've been playing with the apathetic trait combined with depressed and I rarely see a change in sanity

kevinz000 wrote:area beauty is not in good shape right now you should not be getting negative mood because someone stacked blood in some obscure corner you can't see about 4 screens away
you should not be going unhinged/start to lose it from being overfed and not even fat-mutation threshold. being fat should make you depressed but why would you start to go crazy just from that?
sanity changes too quickly and has not enough tolerance. feeling a little sad is not going to make someone unhinged.

I thought of a simple solution for that and ill have it in this weekend probably

tbh security should get happy moodlets for beating people with stunbatons

and for eating donuts, if they don't already

Moodlets only exist to give me a free trait point

having a harmful virus should really be a negative moodlet

lifeweb feature implemented in such a lame way i can only wonder why it was added other than to be a practical joke on tgstation

DemonFiren wrote:and for eating donuts, if they don't already

they do

Since eating is the easiest and most accessible way to raise your mood, it feels like it boils down to a reskinned hunger bar except dirty floors make you hungry faster.

Different mental breaks might make it more interesting but players would likely seek them out for an excuse to act up.

Kor wrote:Since eating is the easiest and most accessible way to raise your mood, it feels like it boils down to a reskinned hunger bar except dirty floors make you hungry faster.

Different mental breaks might make it more interesting but players would likely seek them out for an excuse to act up.

Yeah, this is about the current state of things. I find the moodlet really just tracks where the hunger bar is and few other things really matter.

Kor wrote:Since eating is the easiest and most accessible way to raise your mood, it feels like it boils down to a reskinned hunger bar except dirty floors make you hungry faster.

Different mental breaks might make it more interesting but players would likely seek them out for an excuse to act up.

I'm scared of introducing too much systems (hygiene, thirst) because it will just leave a sour taste in players mouth. And because you were one of the people complaining about making me make people do more extra tasks they dont want to I opted in to make it partially a feature for features like the artifact trait xhuis made, which would otherwise not have any system to influence.

Qustinnus wrote:

Kor wrote:Since eating is the easiest and most accessible way to raise your mood, it feels like it boils down to a reskinned hunger bar except dirty floors make you hungry faster.

Different mental breaks might make it more interesting but players would likely seek them out for an excuse to act up.

I'm scared of introducing too much systems (hygiene, thirst) because it will just leave a sour taste in players mouth. And because you were one of the people complaining about making me make people do more extra tasks they dont want to I opted in to make it partially a feature for features like the artifact trait xhuis made, which would otherwise not have any system to influence.

yes, it's weird for kor to say they hate the system and then criticise it's lack of depth due to outcry

oranges wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:

Kor wrote:Since eating is the easiest and most accessible way to raise your mood, it feels like it boils down to a reskinned hunger bar except dirty floors make you hungry faster.

Different mental breaks might make it more interesting but players would likely seek them out for an excuse to act up.

I'm scared of introducing too much systems (hygiene, thirst) because it will just leave a sour taste in players mouth. And because you were one of the people complaining about making me make people do more extra tasks they dont want to I opted in to make it partially a feature for features like the artifact trait xhuis made, which would otherwise not have any system to influence.

yes, it's weird for kor to say they hate the system and then criticise it's lack of depth due to outcry

I don't think it is inconsistent to think a system feels tacked on when its underdeveloped and also be worried that it'd end up too obtrusive if it was developed enough to matter. Would not be surprised if I said just that in the original discussions surrounding this. I said from the beginning I didn't think survival game/colony sim meter management was going to end up very fun bolted on to SS13.

And given that the general feedback to "hallucinating because the room was dirty" has been largely negative I don't think expanding it to include "hallucinating because you're thirsty or smelly" would make it any more popular.

Disappointing that the first feedback post I got called a liar for and the second I got called a hypocrite.

a very easy and small thing to do, not so much to improve the lack of depth but to hide it, is to rewrite the moodlet messages. when you are making a game and you write something like "Nothing memorable has happened to me lately" (or whatever), you are just asking for trouble because there is no way you can account for anything that could possibly be found memorable.

I think this system has a great potential to finally make service jobs have a real purpose rather than being gimmicks/assistants with perks and it would be a shame to see it dropped due to kneejerk reactions to change/lack of initial polish.

Some things I personally find could use some looking into:
1.There are no moodlets for drinking(not just booze)/being drunk/sleeping
2.Some moodlets that you typically need to go out of your way to achieve (such as taking a shower) feel too short in duration. They'd be a much more attractive for managing mood if they had a more lasting effect. From my testing it lasts about 3 minutes which doesn't feel like it's worth bothering.
3.Rather than full on hygiene, just a negative moodlet for having bloody clothes would have the positive by-effect of having less people covered in blood walking around, which should be suspect but we're so used to it it's often pointless to investigate when you're playing security. Better if you can make a exception for the chef.
4.Rollies do not give the "had a smoke" moodlet. Also I'm not sure it's intended but for cigarettes/cigars the moodlet goes away after a while even though they're still lit.
5.Standing over a chair or a stool for a few seconds should give a positive moodlet. Finally a reason for chairs to exist other than restraining people?
6.It's about time the clown had some ways to improve morale... sometimes at the expense of others. People slipping on banana peels or getting a pie in the face should give a positive moodlet to everyone around. Although both the mime and the clown could use some new toys to help with morale that don't necessarily end up pissing people off, but that's for later.

Kor wrote:And given that the general feedback to "hallucinating because the room was dirty" has been largely negative I don't think expanding it to include "hallucinating because you're thirsty or smelly" would make it any more popular.

Especially since now going insane has a sadness threshold it's impossible to achieve just from a dirty room, and it was still very unlikely to happen before that, unless you had a bunch of other negative moodlets to go with it. So this statement is hyperbolic and/or outdated.

No, it isn't outdated.
You can get derpession from gibs in unseen corners of area.
Basically, this featurebug(feature, which existence is a bug) can be called:"you lose nutrition and get annoying image blur for stupid reasons."

You can't just change every word in that sentence and then tell me I'm wrong. If area beauty has issues then it needs fixing but it isn't a good reason to get rid of everything.

Though I do think that losing nutrition depending on mood feels redundant and puts too much pressure on the chef, I'd rather if mood issues were the responsability of all service staff rather than snowball into starvation.
Ideally you should be able to sort out minor mood issues just by popping into your department's break room, grab a snack, some coffee and a smoke and you're all set for a bit. The bar and dormitories being there to make things easier and faster if you have the opportunity and inclination to visit them.

Mickyan wrote:You can't just change every word in that sentence and then tell me I'm wrong. If area beauty has issues then it needs fixing but it isn't a good reason to get rid of everything.

Though I do think that losing nutrition depending on mood feels redundant and puts too much pressure on the chef, I'd rather if mood issues were the responsability of all service staff rather than snowball into starvation.
Ideally you should be able to sort out minor mood issues just by popping into your department's break room, grab a snack, some coffee and a smoke and you're all set for a bit. The bar and dormitories being there to make things easier and faster if you have the opportunity and inclination to visit them.

The effects of mood on nutrition are only positive (you only get hungry less fast). It shouldn't force you to eat more than normal.

I'm thinking of introducing more ways for service jobs to influence mood (like you mentioned, I will probably have to do booze first)

also, ignore Selea, so far all he has posted on TG is suggestions for ERP and hemorrhoid burgers. Besides that I've only seen him be super hostile because I still wont add ERP for him lmao

He's posted more than that. Lots of circuit shit, for one.

Also, those burgers were in the shitty ideas thread, so they don't count.

To be clear, I'm not hostile to persons there, but I can be hostile to certain ideas. I've called much ideas/PRs crap. But I've never called someone douchebag/retard/any other harsh word for their ideas/work. For example, I am severely dislike techwebs in their current state and argued a lot about it. But I respect Kevinz.
I don't respect Quistinnus/Floyd, because he keeps distort other people's words every time, when he can do it. He knows, that I was against moodlets and proposed ERP mechanics as only justification to add it. Also he knows, that I've posted a lot more different ideas there. But he prefers to tell what he tell. And he do same things constantly.
But dislike to him and moodlets is separate and unrelated things.
I've told, that it will be just annoying thing, which doesn't gives anything good to gameplay. And Kor words only prooves mine.
It is just mechanic , which scaling hunger level with amount of seen gibs. Probably splattered gibs just invokes spessman's appetite. Also it produces annoying vision blur.
And addition of more "depth" just will make it more annoying. So why even keep it?
So it's featurebug. Much better to have bugfeatures. Like chair rotating ghosts.

Selea wrote: I don't respect Quistinnus/Floyd, because he keeps distort other people's words every time, when he can do it. He knows, that I was against moodlets and proposed ERP mechanics as only justification to add it. Also he knows, that I've posted a lot more different ideas there. But he prefers to tell what he tell. And he do same things constantly.

i dont really distort your words, if you post about erp and all your fetishes in every odd post theres not much to distort. If you don't want me to think it's all you think of maybe dont post it in every thread I make.

Ignore Selea he's a weirdo.

Moodlets are needed. They are not done and need expansion and refinement but I think they will be beneficial. It's another layer that raises the game system up to the roleplay level and that's a good thing. It's also a new reward mechanic for actually engaging with crew where before it was purely disadvantageous to put yourself out there.

I'm on phone but I'll throw out some more ideas later. Booze is a good thing to add next I think. I think addictions in general would be good, along with traits like Addiction: Nicotine where you get a minor mood boost for smoking every five minutes and debuff if you don't.

Stickymayhem wrote:Ignore Selea he's a weirdo.

Moodlets are needed. They are not done and need expansion and refinement but I think they will be beneficial. It's another layer that raises the game system up to the roleplay level and that's a good thing. It's also a new reward mechanic for actually engaging with crew where before it was purely disadvantageous to put yourself out there.

I'm on phone but I'll throw out some more ideas later. Booze is a good thing to add next I think. I think addictions in general would be good, along with traits like Addiction: Nicotine where you get a minor mood boost for smoking every five minutes and debuff if you don't.

Addiction is already in, however I can't recall if nicotine was actually addictive in the code, (or what the threshold for addiction was)

Maybe I'm weird. But this thing is still just annoying. It isn't only my opinion.
Also not me called mood indicator "rapeface".
And not only me said, that sims 13 is bad idea.
Kor have started vote ingame recently.
5 players voted , that it is good idea and good implementation.
13 votes, for bad implementation and good idea.
15-17(don't remember preciesly last number) votes for bad idea and bad implementation.
So it isn't only my opinion, that moodlets are bad.
Yes, you can't count, that 18 voters think, that it's good idea. But in practice, 13 votes is uncertain. Because they have many different ideas, how psychical state may be implemented ingame. Which possibly never will be implemented in way, which can fullfill requests of these people. So more than half will dislike this thing even after improvements.
If you think, that 33-35 votes aren't representative, we can start forum vote with more preciese counting.

Selea wrote:Maybe I'm weird. But this thing is still just annoying. It isn't only my opinion.
Also not me called mood indicator "rapeface".
And not only me said, that sims 13 is bad idea.
Kor have started vote ingame recently.
5 players voted , that it is good idea and good implementation.
13 votes, for bad implementation and good idea.
15-17(don't remember preciesly last number) votes for bad idea and bad implementation.
So it isn't only my opinion, that moodlets are bad.
Yes, you can't count, that 18 voters think, that it's good idea. But in practice, 13 votes is uncertain. Because they have many different ideas, how psychical state may be implemented ingame. Which possibly never will be implemented in way, which can fullfill requests of these people. So more than half will dislike this thing even after improvements.
If you think, that 33-35 votes aren't representative, we can start forum vote with more preciese counting.

I already discussed what will happen with one of the headmins and I'll stick to that. It's not really difficult to start a vote on something while it's still in its early phases, anything new that a lot of people have to deal with is hard to get right on the first attempt, and has a high chance of having issues. I'm sure a lot of features that are now very core and interesting parts of SS13 went through the same initial kneejerk phase.

My main issue with your posts are that they are just "mood is shit" with no meaningful feedback behind it most of the time, until me or someone else calls you out for shitposting. Which means I can barely take you serious, especially when you post about old flash games in which you shoot gay rapists in threads I make

some of it is also just misinformed and talks about things completely unrelated to what people said in this thread, such as this

Selea wrote:No, it isn't outdated.
You can get derpession from gibs in unseen corners of area.

this was never what they were talking about, he is talking about how you cant hallucinate from just being in a dirty room anymore, which Kor said was a thing. So it IS outdated information.

From less than a week ago. My point was not that it was still happening, but that people didn't like it when moodlets had easy consequences for their round, so I don't think expanding it to track more things more heavily, which will again cause it to have heavier consequences on the round more frequently, will make many players happy.

I imagine the values of thresholds can be tuned so it won't just be like "here's even MORE things that will stack to ruin your day"

Maybe I am suffering from a lake of imagination but tweaking the values between several things tied to one meter seems like it will either result in them overwhelming you with a laundry list of tasks to keep them under control if they carry noticeable individual weight, or having them all be largely irrelevant and ignorable if you eat some snacks if you try to minimize how disruptive they are.

Kor wrote:From less than a week ago. My point was not that it was still happening, but that people didn't like it when moodlets had easy consequences for their round, so I don't think expanding it to track more things more heavily, which will again cause it to have heavier consequences on the round more frequently, will make many players happy.

Complexity and intrusiveness aren't mutually inclusive, much the same as having a complex atmospheric system doesn't make it harder to breathe in a normal situation than if you just tracked "has breathable air" as a checkbox for every room, but it's that complexity that makes every situation in SS13 so unique, interesting and full of potential, as even the small details can make a difference in the grand scheme of things.
Maybe one day that mood buff will save your life. It probably won't, but you don't have anything better to do right now, so why not swing by the bar and give the bartender something to do, you never know.

As it stands managing mood doesn't require a "laundry list of tasks" to control and I don't think anyone made the argument that it should, you mentioned that it feels like a reskinned hunger bar and that's something that can be addressed by adding more ways to interact with it, some of which can come from pre existing items, others will no doubt come in the future with some brand new ideas that came from having this system in the first place.

Kor wrote:having them all be largely irrelevant and ignorable if you eat some snacks if you try to minimize how disruptive they are.

Oversimplification aside, is that really a bad thing? Any small incentive that can push people towards interacting with each other and break the routine is a positive in my book. Your mood is going to be much different every shift depending on what's been happening to you lately, so just grabbing a snack from a vending machine isn't always going to cut it if you intend to keep your mood in check. If there's an emergency you can probably figure out it's not worth going to get drunk at the bar to get that mood buff, and that's just fine.

Kor wrote:From less than a week ago. My point was not that it was still happening, but that people didn't like it when moodlets had easy consequences for their round, so I don't think expanding it to track more things more heavily, which will again cause it to have heavier consequences on the round more frequently, will make many players happy.

I'm scaling the mood needed for bad/good mood with the amount of moodlets/features available. Balance shouldnt change too much

Yeah Moodlets are kinda cool, I finally feel like I've got a actual purpose on-station when playing as a chef, it's great.

Kor wrote:Maybe I am suffering from a lake of imagination but tweaking the values between several things tied to one meter seems like it will either result in them overwhelming you with a laundry list of tasks to keep them under control if they carry noticeable individual weight, or having them all be largely irrelevant and ignorable if you eat some snacks if you try to minimize how disruptive they are.

Giving people a list of things to keep in check is a good thing. Even now, in it's early iteration, it's bringing people together more than before. Sure they're being mechanically forced to engage in a way they didn't need to before and that's going to be as frustrating as any change with negative impacts on things players took for granted would be, but it's hopefully going to give us a lever we can use to reward certain behaviour.

SS13 doesn't work without a roleplay layer on top. The game mechanically does not function well without some roleplay masking the gaps. Moodlets brings the roleplay and gameplay layers closer together. Better yet, it raises the gameplay layer up to the level of roleplay somewhat, and that's important. The stories that come out of SS13 are the thing that brings players in and keeps them. I say this as a despicable murderboner, but I don't remember those rounds. I remember rounds with great stories and those stories almost always take place in the roleplay layer.

We have always had an issue where there is literally 0 in-game reward for behaving realistically, or trying to roleplay even in a silly way. This is true in most roleplay games, like D&D for example. As of right now, we only have admins as a way to reward that kind of behaviour. Now you can be rewarded for being a smoker or alcoholic, for spending a minute actually eating in the kitchen and talking to people, or doing your job as a service role. We can adjust values as needed, but ultimately it's a way to give a bit of feedback to players saying "Hey look, you feel good for not being 100% focused on WINNING THE ROUND".

Another switch we can use to subtlely, without impacting their free will too heavily (Because there will always be ways to efficiently minimize interaction with the moodlet system) encourage positive player behaviour is a good thing.

Biggest problem with rp on tg is lack of some QOL features:
1. Give verb. A little bit dumb if you can't give something in hands directly. Without drop it on floor.
2. LOOC. Sometimes is very needed. Someone may say, that it's ruins immersion. But much more often it helps to solve some interaction problems.
3. Roundstart layout. It could help to personalize character.
4.flavour text.
5. More usable verbs/emotes.
Personally I would like to see bar with emotes/say verbs al the left of the screen as action buttons. But it's questionable.
6. Not QOL question, but still can enforce RP in non horrible way. Better station goals. Not mechanics, which makes people act like sims. But reasons to be unite.
I haven't really developed proposal about it.
But I have some ideas. Sometimes interferience of ghost roles in round counts as problem. But possibly it's solution.
Why you even need BS artillery, if there aren't worthful targets to shoot? But if bioweapon scientists could deliver their creations to traitors, it is very needed. Station shield to cut off supply channel. BS art to vapourize the fuckers.

Selea wrote:Biggest problem with rp on tg is lack of some QOL features:
1. Give verb. A little bit dumb if you can't give something in hands directly. Without drop it on floor.
2. LOOC. Sometimes very needed. Someone may say, that it ruin immersion. But much more often it help to solve some interaction problems.
3. Roundstart layout. It could help to personalize character.
4.flavour text.
5. More usable verbs/emotes.
Personally I would like to see bar with emotes/say verbs al the left of the screen as action buttons. But it's questionable.
6. Not QOL question, but still can enforce RP in non horrible way. Better station goals. Not mechanics, which makes people act like sims. But reasons to be unite.
I haven't really developed proposal about it.
But I have some ideas. Sometimes interferience of ghost roles in round counts as problem. But possibly it's solution.
Why you even need BS artillery, if there aren't worthful targets to shoot? But if bioweapon scientists could deliver their creations to traitors, it is very needed. Station shield to cut off supply channel. BS art to vapourize the fuckers.

1. You can put stuff in people's hands

2. This doesn't help RP at all, it does the exact opposite and I can't think of any interactions LOOC really solves better than OOC or ahelping.

3. ? This doesn't mean anything

4. This is too far. You don't need backstories to play a reasonable character. Why are you trying to go high-rp This isn't even related. How is this QOL?

5. There are plenty of emotes, /me is a thing and these aren't needed to RP at all. You can do plenty with what exists already. We don't need *poop

6. More station goals is fine but how the fuck is this related to moodlets? What the fuck are you even talking about. A Bluespace Artillery minigame? Selecting targets (Which is about as much interaction as it has currently)? What is this

You've basically just listed off a bunch of bad ideas unrelated to moodlets for no discernible reason.

Stickymayhem wrote:
Giving people a list of things to keep in check is a good thing. Even now, in it's early iteration, it's bringing people together more than before. Sure they're being mechanically forced to engage in a way they didn't need to before and that's going to be as frustrating as any change with negative impacts on things players took for granted would be, but it's hopefully going to give us a lever we can use to reward certain behaviour.

They're not though? We have had this argument for something like 5+ years about how buffing the chef and nerfing vending machines and whatever will encourage RP and it has never materialized. People just grab the food item from the counter and run.

Yeah I agree the stories and roleplay are what make SS13, but it wasn't a lack of an expanded hunger meter that killed RP, and it won't bring it back. Antags are largely immune to moodlets anyway so I don't know why you're bringing up killing sprees.

I have doubts it will even contribute much to the stories. "Blight wiped out the crops and my starving colonist lost his shit and set a fire in the middle of a raider attack" is a cool situation in Rimworld, but our rules system prohibits any sort of interesting mental breaks that could actually serve as catalysts to zany situations.

Buffing the chef certainly hasn't hurt RP, though. Whatever decline in RP the server has experienced is not due to the chef getting more machines or whatever. It's basically neutral as far as RP is concerned.

These ideas are related to RP encourage.
1. Drag someone's sprite on you and use HTML window? It's clunky.
2.Have you ever tryed to play on servers, where this feature is implemented?
3. Roundstart layout is character preferencr option, which allow to decide, which things will you have roundstart. Nothing very gamechanging. Hats, canes, lighters, other crap.
4. Sims 13 with annoying screen effects isn't too far, but flavour text is? Are you serious?
Roleplaying is about role. It's easier to RP, when you have developed char.
High/medium/low RP is about server policy. But if you want encourage TP, you should give not only need for it, but instruments to reveal a character as well.
5. I don't ask for new emotes. Just less clunky way to use old ones. Yes, it can't stop true RPer. But there aren't much of them.
6. I'm talking about better ways to encourage RP. So I suggest to add goal to unite station, instead of sims.

Yeah but if buffing the Chef or not is a complete wash as far as RP goes, his mechanics shouldn't be more important than the mehcanics of the other 70 players online.

Also, a completely scientific poll from about two minutes ago