/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:19 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

is "token" the new buzzword?
the only real danger involved in space walks was carp or meteors, there was no real danger of slipping away. and even then, you could just take a fire extinguisher (which are incredibly plentiful) or throw something like a flashlight. Moving through space was really fast in all cases and only a tiny bit slower if you needed to round outward-pointing corners.

I don't really see the "extreme slowness" with going out into space as an engineer. I was leisurely building a space cooler outside atmos as the CE the other day, when meteors struck xenobio, and I rushed there to help (through space because access a shit). It worked fairly well.

Wizards get a teleport scroll, they dont need to be outside the station ever basically.
i don't get your traitor argument. everybody is really slow in space, traitors dont magically move faster.

also, you don't seem to get this: ATMOSPHERICS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CHANGE. PEOPLE WOULD GET SUCKED OUT BEFORE. THIS CHANGE DOES NOT AFFECT THAT. I HAVE PERSONALLY DIED TO BEING SUCKED OUT AN AIRLOCK MANY TIMES. and yes aliens are broken. you may just as well use "water is wet" as an argument.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:15 pm**

Before, you would only get sucked out x1000 if atmosia had set output pressure stupidly high. Now you can't get back inside EVER AT ALL if you don't have some form of space mobility.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:42 pm**

Here is the problem with current space movement.

This is what the old code was:

Code: Select all

if(!has_gravity(H))
 return -1 //It's hard to be slowed down in space by... anything
else if(H.status_flags & GOTTAGOFAST)
 return -1

And this is the current one:

Code: Select all

/datum/species/proc/movement_delay(var/mob/living/carbon/human/H)
var/mspeed = 0
if(H.status_flags & GOTTAGOFAST)
 mspeed -= 1
if(!has_gravity(H))
 mspeed += 1.5 //Carefully propelling yourself along the walls is actually quite slow
if(istype(H.back, /obj/item/weapon/tank/jetpack))
 var/obj/item/weapon/tank/jetpack/J = H.back
if(J.allow_thrust(0.01, H))
 mspeed -= 2.5
if(H.l_hand) //Having your hands full makes movement harder when you're weightless. You try climbing around while holding a gun!
 mspeed += 0.5
if(H.r_hand)
 mspeed += 0.5
if(H.r_hand && H.l_hand)
 mspeed += 0.5

And this is what comes after:

Code: Select all

var/health_deficiency = (100 - H.health + H.staminaloss)
if(health_deficiency >= 40)
 mspeed += (health_deficiency / 25)
var/hungry = (500 - H.nutrition) / 5 //So overeat would be 100 and default level would be 80
if(hungry >= 70)
 mspeed += hungry / 50
if(H.wear_suit)
 mspeed += H.wear_suit.slowdown
if(H.shoes)
 mspeed += H.shoes.slowdown
if(H.back)
 mspeed += H.back.slowdown
if(FAT in H.mutations)
 mspeed += 1.5
if(H.bodytemperature < 283.222)
 mspeed += (283.222 - H.bodytemperature) / 10 * 1.75
mspeed += speedmod
return mspeed

As you can see they are no returns.

While some things make sense to take into account like health and temperature everything else does not.
You are 1.5 points slower then on the station while wearing suits that gives the biggest slowdowns on the station.
Edit: the jetpack difference is only 1 point speed up.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:53 pm**

I've spectated, and literally watched 4+ people die, because one person gets pushed/walks out an airlock, then whe people try save them, THEY'RE FUCKED. They literally CANNOT get back inside, let alone save the other guy. Then another person tries save them... and another. Before, youcould get in yourself, and you could pull in someone with you with a bit of effort, now unless you're a drugged up chemist, you're simply fucked.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:53 pm**

The question we should be asking is what has improved since this change. What did this change improve?

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:43 pm**

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The question we should be asking is what has improved since this change. What did this change improve?

Literally the only thing I enjoy about this change is how silly the singulo is now. Ironically, that wasn't even a stated intention. More a happy accident.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:06 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The question we should be asking is what has improved since this change. What did this change improve?
Literally the only thing I enjoy about this change is how silly the singulo is now. Ironically, that wasn't even a stated intention. More a happy accident.

I think that is because of the drifting change. It was part of the same PR but it isnt related to speed.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:11 pm**

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The question we should be asking is what has improved since this change. What did this change improve?

Only that has improved in Singloth actually being destruct on the scale that it is entirely possible for him to go through one section of the station, fly off to deep space and curve back around for another go.

Posted: **Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:37 pm**

Super sanic singulo is absolutely hilarious along side HG's singulo changes. Before, there was a semi good chance the singulo would fuck off into space, or do fairly minimal damage. Now, if the singulo gets loose the station is absolutely and utterly fucked, and it's an actual challenge to even survive until the shuttle leaves.

Also going slower when you hold things is pretty daft, I know the idea is that you're holding onto things, pulling yourself along. This breaks downhowever when you're walking along happily on floors, in space. Please explain where the handholds are on the floor, that you can't grab with your full hands.

Posted: **Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:42 pm**

Fine less dickish comment incoming, space was fine the way it was before or at the very least it needed some tweaking sure. But to completely removing diagonal movements and acceleration in space not only breaks immersion but prevents any space exploration really, there's no reason for those other z-layers now unless telescience gets its crap together. So please on behalf of literally 5 pages of people wanting this change to revert. Just let it happen...

Posted: **Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:55 pm**

Not ALL of those five pages is asking for a revert, you know?

Posted: **Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:01 pm**

Most of the five pages, then.

I have literally never seen a player react positively to these changes.

Posted: **Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:25 pm**

You have now.

Posted: **Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:46 pm**

Hmm, I've changed my mind, if space is actually dangerous now then lets keep the changes.

Posted: **Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:17 am**

It is but jetpacks should be faster.

Posted: **Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:25 am**

It's not so much that space is dangerous as space is 90% lethal. This is actually a ridiculously strong buff to rogue borgs. All it takes is a couple of tiles RCDed and gg humie scum. Even a one or two tile breach in the halls is hard to get past if you don't have protection. To say nothing about how ridiculous tator bomber is now.

Posted: **Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:41 am**

oranges wrote:Hmm, I've changed my mind, if space is actually dangerous now then lets keep the changes.

The existence of some positive effects doesn't necessarily cancel out of the fact that it's still a pretty bad way to do it.

Posted: **Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:13 pm**

So, a cult construct (arificier) is now able to drift through space faster than a human in a suit with one item in their hand and an active jetpack. Also, the walls and floors it can spam out cause the gravity/drift mechanic to throw you around. That's really annoying.

Posted: **Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:22 pm**

I'm not going to read through 5 pages of bitching to see if this has been mentioned, but blobs that spawn on solars / otherwise in space-adjacent areas are now stupidly robust.

Posted: **Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:48 am**

Being stuck in space as a ling without access to a bio space suit is pretty awful. It's like yeah, technically you're not dead and can get back to the station but it's going to take like half an hour or more. The fact that it's still feasible to get back in time keeps you regenerating, taking a few steps and dying again but chances are the crew will call the shuttle and leave before you're back.

Same goes for being stuck in space with augs, you won't take any damage but will walk at a snail's pace.

Honestly I can admit that being able to sanic around and only getting stopped by slip RNG was probably a bit too easy, but this is just too far in the other direction of design. Surely there is a compromise to be found here?

Posted: **Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:14 am**

I can personally attest to how horrible it is to get trapped in space as a ling. If you have fleshmend and the engorged glands, its possible to keep going without dying, but holy shit is it slow and horrible. Don't forget to add the part where being cold can make you starve, making you go even slower with the added cold debuff.

At that point you might as well stay dead because good luck getting past the spacewind and getting past an airlock.

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:11 pm**

Was directed here by admins to voice my concerns about the 'space nerf'.
Just wanted to say that I too dislike it being this slow and faced a similar problem where in the time it took me to walk from escape to the brig with augments, though the outer perimeter of the station i asphyxiated and died with a full small tank.

But that's just me goofing about.

I am now imagining being a ling and trying to get back while regenerating. Must be tedious, frustrating and just not very fun.

And what if I end up one tile into space, I stand there playing tug of war with the floor desperately holding the forward key backing and forthing in and out of space- Sometimes the same on the ship in areas with one exposed square, its a right pain in the A.

I'm mad and don't like it.

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:09 pm**

Its really just crippling for no real improvement in gameplay. It shouldn't take 10 minutes to travel between solars as an engineer without having to go back inside the station. Space is not made of bread pudding and shouldn't feel like it when you move through it. The extra punishment for holding something while you move is also rather pointlessly crippling and essentially means jetpack assisted space fights are a no-go because even with a jetpack you're both moving at the speed of "no."

Just revert this already.

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:44 pm**

change is bad. at least, jetpacking should be two times to three times as fast as it is now. jetpacks are now effectively pointless, and spacewalking while probably too fast before is now ludicrously slow, it's a pain in the ass and takes engineers forever to get anywhere on the hull.

honestly space movement before wasn't complicated but it was fine. if you wanted to remove slipping in exchange for a speed nerf, why didn't you just implement a careful mode that stops slipping for speed?

what has this honestly improved, i have no idea. you're obviously trying to ram this shit through and close your ears to dissent. please stop it. this effectively ruins engineer movement around the hull for absolutely no discernible change in anything else.

i know many people complain about coders removing fun, and i'm not convinced that that's the intent all the time, but honestly this is some my way or the highway take my ball and go home shit.

edit: and just so it will not be said that i come here and bring nothing but complaints:

if you really want to prevent ops from getting lost, and if that truly is your objective, then you should be prepared to consider alternate solutions. for instance, you could probably alter the jetpack little diamond sprite thingies (that indicate thrust) could stick around for a little while longer, perhaps one to two seconds, which would allow ops to follow the trail of a friendly op, even after he is off the screen. this would improve OP cohesion and would not affect space movement at all.

Posted: **Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:15 pm**

Cik wrote: you're obviously trying to ram this shit through and close your ears to dissent. please stop it.

The contributor who made the change has already said on numerous occasions that anyone is free to raise the speed, and it has already been increased once before.

Can people please stop crying "vast conspiracy!" every time something they don't like is added?

Posted: **Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:31 pm**

"vast conspiracy" was never even implied. i'm referring exclusively to the guy (who i assume submitted the change) who said somewhere on page 3 "working as intended :^)" smiley added by me.

Posted: **Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:39 pm**

Cheridan wrote:
Cik wrote: you're obviously trying to ram this shit through and close your ears to dissent. please stop it.
The contributor who made the change has already said on numerous occasions that anyone is free to raise the speed, and it has already been increased once before.

Can people please stop crying "vast conspiracy!" every time something they don't like is added?

Solution. Raise the speed back to pre-change levels and it will be fine. Keeping it as slow as it is right now is pants-on-head retarded because nobody likes the speed nerf.

Posted: **Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:10 pm**

RG4 wrote:
Cheridan wrote:
Cik wrote: you're obviously trying to ram this shit through and close your ears to dissent. please stop it.
The contributor who made the change has already said on numerous occasions that anyone is free to raise the speed, and it has already been increased once before.

Can people please stop crying "vast conspiracy!" every time something they don't like is added?
Solution. Raise the speed back to pre-change levels and it will be fine. Keeping it as slow as it is right now is pants-on-head retarded because nobody likes the speed nerf.

Basically this. The change is already shown A) Not to achieve its stated goal B) Make things worse without a noticeable improvement. "You can make a PR to increase it!" is just what produces things like the "compromise" PRs we get that partially revert bad changes in order to allow the original to save face while claiming some middle ground was reached when the bad change remains mostly intact.

Posted: **Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:14 pm**

Speed nerf is necessary if you ask me, at least down to human levels of movement... Sanic fast is never actually a good thing.

It's fun, but tiny view sizes and shitty targetting systems make any combat in space impossible at those speeds.

Posted: **Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:20 pm**

Raven776 wrote:Speed nerf is necessary if you ask me, at least down to human levels of movement... Sanic fast is never actually a good thing.

It's fun, but tiny view sizes and shitty targetting systems make any combat in space impossible at those speeds.

Pre-nerf speed was entirely viable for space combat.

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:38 pm**

Raven776 wrote:Speed nerf is necessary if you ask me, at least down to human levels of movement... Sanic fast is never actually a good thing.

It's fun, but tiny view sizes and shitty targetting systems make any combat in space impossible at those speeds.

bullshit. space combat was different of course, but certainly not impossible. if you're having trouble hitting people, get closer.

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:58 pm**

Well we wouldn't want combat conditions to vary by environment. Why would that be a huge factor?

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:55 pm**

Incomptinence wrote:Well we wouldn't want combat conditions to vary by environment. Why would that be a huge factor?

Why wouldn't we want the environment in which combat takes place to affect that combat? What does this even mean? Combat in all forms is as much where you fight as how you fight.

Posted: **Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:37 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Well we wouldn't want combat conditions to vary by environment. Why would that be a huge factor?
Why wouldn't we want the environment in which combat takes place to affect that combat? What does this even mean? Combat in all forms is as much where you fight as how you fight.

He was being sarcastic, mocking raven to get gud at space combat.

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:50 am**

iyaerP wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Well we wouldn't want combat conditions to vary by environment. Why would that be a huge factor?
Why wouldn't we want the environment in which combat takes place to affect that combat? What does this even mean? Combat in all forms is as much where you fight as how you fight.
He was being sarcastic, mocking raven to get gud at space combat.

Sarcasm on the Internet is cheating

Posted: **Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:26 pm**

Personally for me the most annoying thing about the space walk speed change is the fact that currently if you step on a space tile adjacent to a open station room you will never be able to get back and will just die from cold because current speed is not enough to overcome the air pressure pushing you out to vacuum.

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:13 am**

Saltycut wrote:Personally for me the most annoying thing about the space walk speed change is the fact that currently if you step on a space tile adjacent to a open station room you will never be able to get back and will just die from cold because current speed is not enough to overcome the air pressure pushing you out to vacuum.

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:47 am**

the most annoying thing about the space change for me is that now moving around outside the station is so damn slow that wiring the solars takes double the time. i don't even bother anymore. likewise, doing singulo containment is such a fucking drag.

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:18 am**

This is illustrative of the real issue though. This change brought into the game zero fun. It took away several things that were fun or at least weren't a huge drag.

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:55 am**

I personally find it fun that now a hullbreach is actually a actual issue and you don't want to get dragged into it. But that's me.
I personally don't find singularity containment or solars to be a issue.

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:07 pm**

Random Players wrote:I personally find it fun that now a hullbreach is actually a actual issue and you don't want to get dragged into it. But that's me.
I personally don't find singularity containment or solars to be a issue.

Complete opposite for me. I've seen people just decide not to bother wiring solars as a backup power source because it would take so long to do.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:04 am**

Give me your chosen values and I will make a pr, since people seem to be incapable of doing such things.

Here's the relevant proc

http://privatepaste.com/ef9c5d310e

edit: Why don't we just make the jetpack skip all the movement slowdowns relating to hands etc. Normal movement is slow, jetpack is fast again.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:34 am**

Yeah that's the plan. I just need to play around with various speed values to determine what's best.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:00 am**

Why do we even need to make normal movement slow? It seems like just another way to ruin peoples fun. It also makes a space escape from the permabrig impossible. Slow space is unrealistic and not needed at all.

>Cool I have a whole cake
"Thanks I will take that cake!"
>GIMME BACK MY CAKE!
"All right here is half your cake."
>The fuck man I want the other half
"You are so selfish! Dont you believe in compromise?"

Bad coding in a nutshell. Horrible policies in a nutshell. Dictator style reasoning in a nutshell.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:30 am**

soulgamer wrote:Why do we even need to make normal movement slow? It seems like just another way to ruin peoples fun. It also makes a space escape from the permabrig impossible. Slow space is unrealistic and not needed at all.

>Cool I have a whole cake
"Thanks I will take that cake!"
>GIMME BACK MY CAKE!
"All right here is half your cake."
>The fuck man I want the other half
"You are so selfish! Dont you believe in compromise?"

Bad coding in a nutshell. Horrible policies in a nutshell. Dictator style reasoning in a nutshell.

First of all, unless we have a physicist here who can tell us how movement in space works, let's try to avoid trying to use realism as a point or counterpoint in a game where you can heal gunshots with a bruise pack or where air doesn't violently rush to fill a vacuum. And second of all, to continue your analogy, having too much cake is not a good thing. Sometimes, things that are fun are worse for the game as a whole in the long run. And along with that, the kind of fun you want may not be the kind others, whether they be players or coders, want.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:58 am**

MisterPerson wrote:Yeah that's the plan. I just need to play around with various speed values to determine what's best.

I think a full revert should be on the table.
It has caused way too many unpredictable balance issues.
In the first place cold space makes absolutely makes no sense whatsoever anyway since what hurts you is the pressure damage.
This change unleashed a lot of boogymen that nobody wants to deal with.

I am starting to think there was a reason for the return -1 and never looking back.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:13 am**

Still waiting for some suggested values thanks

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:25 am**

The ones that were there before change, for one.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:54 am**

Yea get stuck in one tile of space and its gg. Full revert please.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:25 am**

Konork wrote: First of all, unless we have a physicist here who can tell us how movement in space works, let's try to avoid trying to use realism as a point or counterpoint in a game where you can heal gunshots with a bruise pack or where air doesn't violently rush to fill a vacuum. And second of all, to continue your analogy, having too much cake is not a good thing. Sometimes, things that are fun are worse for the game as a whole in the long run. And along with that, the kind of fun you want may not be the kind others, whether they be players or coders, want.

I used cake because it's a reference to an old gun rights thing on /k/. My problem with this change is that it is a MASSIVELY unpopular change that no one asked for. There is a problem with some of the coders on this server deciding what is good for everyone and if they get shit about it only reverting a small part and saying they "fixed" it. It is a tactic used by totalitarian dictators to slowly take more and more power away from the people.

Please coders stop telling the players that old space was bad wrong fun and just revert this already. Every round I play someone bitches about it in OOC and they are right to. Jesus getting lost in space was already a tedius wait for you to drift by something solid. Now it is even worse as it takes upwards of five minutes to drift across a single z-level.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:43 am**

I'll keep this brief, the current system in place is unfun and discourages creativity, player freedom and discourages people to do any form of job that requires them to leave the station (solars are the big thing). It can take up to 10 or so minutes to just Circe around the station in the best of times.

I can't think of anyone who ever complained about the old system. It was a good system that allowed you to briefly enter into space but still survive long enough to get on station.

If we are going with "realism", firstly I doubt anyone here is qualified to talk about human movement in space. But I can say that a human can remain concious for up to 30 seconds in space if they are not wearing a space suit (only if they exhale any air in their lungs, it's about 15 seconds if they don't exhale any air in their lungs).

This should be reverted, its just not enjoyable to work with.

/tg/Station 13

Dont make space slow please

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