/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Just FYI I did not merge sleepers because I got morphined lol...

After we get that anesthestetic tank buff. Gonna make a syndicate scapel that does toxin damage when it errors

Forcing anesthetics just sounds like complexity for the sake of complexity. It doesn't really add much; you'll have to go through the same steps and they take the same amount of time but if you don't happen to have a bottle of sleep gas then Whoops! Surgery is going to be an even bigger pain in the ass.

If you make surgery even more annoying, people will just do it less. It's already easier for the doctor to kill and clone a patient than to re-attach an arm. It's worse for the patient, who has to wait even longer, but the doc can do other things in the meantime. Why would we want to incentivize that even more?

I mean, we could throw code solutions at it, but maybe consider that killing people just to clone them when alternatives exist and can be used should probably, actually, be a rule 1 break.

We could always do the cloning nerf we've all been waiting for. Replacing the cloner with the experimental one at roundstart.

Bam, you're not always you when you die!1!

Just clean up surgery to make doing it slightly less cumbersome, more interactive (complications that require special reactions between steps) instead of just being a memorized routine, and move reconstruction operations to earlier in the game.

Once that's done we can yank off the bandaid and remove cloning altogether.

So I've managed to find a solution to this: Every time I want to be a doctor I just go play mediborg instead because they're better equipped in pretty much every way.

Infinite basic chems, a complete surgery set, all access, built in medical HUD, high powered flashlight, complete environmental immunity, and, with upgrades, a free defib and an armor-piercing hypospray! Not only that, if I run into an antagonist, they're more likely to convert me than kill me! The only downside is the inability to use the chem dispenser or pandemic, but on the upside, an upgraded hypospray can generate several chems that chemists never bother to mix.

What a surprise, playing as a borg has some advantages at the cost of being a literal slave which doesn't have opposable thumbs.
mediborg is a wet fart over medbay when compared to a janiborg wiping the pee stains from after the regular janitor hung themself in inferiority

confused rock wrote:What a surprise, playing as a borg has some advantages at the cost of being a literal slave which doesn't have opposable thumbs.
mediborg is a wet fart over medbay when compared to a janiborg wiping the pee stains from after the regular janitor hung themself in inferiority

I like to just order janiborgs to stop cleaning as a human janitor if they get uppity. That usually shuts them up good.

That is off topic, but funny.

Could Stasis beds and surgical tables be merged together? or let operating computers work on statis beds as well? It would make actual emergency surgery possible, considering fixing people with surgery during the defib window is currently nearly impossible.

CDranzer wrote:So I've managed to find a solution to this: Every time I want to be a doctor I just go play mediborg instead because they're better equipped in pretty much every way.

Infinite basic chems, a complete surgery set, all access, built in medical HUD, high powered flashlight, complete environmental immunity, and, with upgrades, a free defib and an armor-piercing hypospray! Not only that, if I run into an antagonist, they're more likely to convert me than kill me! The only downside is the inability to use the chem dispenser or pandemic, but on the upside, an upgraded hypospray can generate several chems that chemists never bother to mix.

This was a "solution" before stasis beds?

I mean thanks for pointing out that the medical borg dominates in the medical field I guess.

stasis beds make medical less "exciting" while also more of a hassle

rushing to defib a patient and then stabilize with meds was one of the actual fun things about medbay

you took out that excitement and replaced it with mundane activity

my thoughts

1. put sleepers back with only epinephrine
2. base sleepers slow progression of crit (take less oxy loss, toxin damage, lose less blood)
3. allow people to manually put chems in sleepers so you can create cocktails like before, they just have to be synthesized and added
4. require the sleepers in medbay to be "unlocked" by a doctor/cmo before they can be used to prevent tools from wasting all your chems and make people need docs (like the gulag teleporter)
5. upgraded sleepers double the healing potency of chems and have built in defibs

this is probably a huge hassle to code I realize but would be more fun for medbay than "throw corpse on stasis bed and get around to it"

cedarbridge wrote:Just clean up surgery to make doing it slightly less cumbersome, more interactive (complications that require special reactions between steps) instead of just being a memorized routine, and move reconstruction operations to earlier in the game.

Once that's done we can yank off the bandaid and remove cloning altogether.

also all of this

Cobby wrote:

CDranzer wrote:So I've managed to find a solution to this: Every time I want to be a doctor I just go play mediborg instead because they're better equipped in pretty much every way.

Infinite basic chems, a complete surgery set, all access, built in medical HUD, high powered flashlight, complete environmental immunity, and, with upgrades, a free defib and an armor-piercing hypospray! Not only that, if I run into an antagonist, they're more likely to convert me than kill me! The only downside is the inability to use the chem dispenser or pandemic, but on the upside, an upgraded hypospray can generate several chems that chemists never bother to mix.

This was a "solution" before stasis beds?

I mean thanks for pointing out that the medical borg dominates in the medical field I guess.

For mediborgs, the sleeper change means your hypospray is far more practically useful.
For doctors, the sleeper change means a greater dependence on things you have no control over.
The removal of sleepers made mediborgs more interesting, and doctors more shit.

Actually, I feel like that's a good summary of this entire change. It makes things more interesting for everybody except doctors, for whom it just increases suffering.

but you were always dependent on sleepers if not chem/roundstart supplies/etc.?

If chem is now a crutch only because this one machine was removed, doesn't that mean that machine itself was just as much as a crutch? I don't see how this removal made doctor "less fun" if you just switched from i'm now relying on the magic machine to i'm now relying on actual meds from the chemfridge/roundstart supplies.

I think I'd like the borg hypo removed anyways in favor of a chem dispenser module so they'll have to craft reagents as well or use the surgery.

Stasis bed are useless. You ether heal person or he already dead. Even if person die on your hands => defibs.
You never need stasis bed at all.

Cobby wrote:I think I'd like the borg hypo removed anyways in favor of a chem dispenser module so they'll have to craft reagents as well or use the surgery.

That would give them the full access of everything that the chem dispenser gives, right? Would be pretty neat for experienced borgs, if a bit harder to learn for people who've never played chem.

The question at that point would be what do you do with hacked modules, since they could make all the poisons they'd want with the chem dispenser. Maybe give hacked mediborgos the syndi e-saw?

zxaber wrote:

Cobby wrote:I think I'd like the borg hypo removed anyways in favor of a chem dispenser module so they'll have to craft reagents as well or use the surgery.

That would give them the full access of everything that the chem dispenser gives, right? Would be pretty neat for experienced borgs, if a bit harder to learn for people who've never played chem.

The question at that point would be what do you do with hacked modules, since they could make all the poisons they'd want with the chem dispenser. Maybe give hacked mediborgos the syndi e-saw?

Don't power creep the med borgs you mongs.

cedarbridge wrote:

zxaber wrote:

Cobby wrote:I think I'd like the borg hypo removed anyways in favor of a chem dispenser module so they'll have to craft reagents as well or use the surgery.

That would give them the full access of everything that the chem dispenser gives, right? Would be pretty neat for experienced borgs, if a bit harder to learn for people who've never played chem.

The question at that point would be what do you do with hacked modules, since they could make all the poisons they'd want with the chem dispenser. Maybe give hacked mediborgos the syndi e-saw?

Don't power creep the med borgs you mongs.

Other servers have a chemborg module for this stuff. Borgs can use chem dispensers on those servers with their beaker tools as well.

Stasis beds are good, but would be better if medbay had more roundstart chems. Like 25-50 of each roundstart sleeper chem on a counter next to the stasis bed or something.

wesoda25 wrote:Stasis beds are good, but would be better if medbay had more roundstart chems. Like 25-50 of each roundstart sleeper chem on a counter next to the stasis bed or something.

Nanomed: exists
Players: we need roundstart chemicals now reeeeee
Nanomed: am i a joke to you

Lol nal you know the small medivends? Every md round I get a chemistry bag and shamelessly empter an entire nanomed from a patient room. Doing this, I’ve NEVER had to get more meds, let alone run out, but I could get more if I did. Plus single pack meds from cargo are so cheap a doc can buy one personally.

ive saved ~a dozen people this past week via stasis beds, 1 person was infected stage 4/5 with a robotic transformation virus, the others were from a few rounds where a virus outbreak happened and i was able to have them sit down long enough to get cures/vaccines without having to juggle my attention actively healing them. Couldn't have done it with sleepers and they'd have died without stasis.

all hail stasis.

Not a 1/1 sleepers replacement

Shadowflame909 wrote:Not a 1/1 sleepers replacement

It's not supposed to be. Sleepers were such a huge QoL powercrepe that anything else to be a 1:1 replacement would be on the same level of laziness and mindless interaction.

Stasis is legit prolly the only way to stop a black slime transformation

My primary issue with stasis beds is that it pushes too much interaction with other players, especially if chem isn't being played by anyone competent

I shouldn't need to break into chem every round to get even the fucking basic chems set up, but lo and behold, this sleeper removal forced that real quick

Takeguru wrote:My primary issue with stasis beds is that it pushes too much interaction with other players, especially if chem isn't being played by anyone competent

I shouldn't need to break into chem every round to get even the fucking basic chems set up, but lo and behold, this sleeper removal forced that real quick

*cough* merge medical jobs *cough*

Oh dear, better get that cough checked out, pity the chemists are making meth and not medication, if only they were just regular doctors with the responsibilities of such.

These assholes aren't doing their job!

Just give more assholes access to it!

just result in more shitters making meth dude

Nalzul wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:Not a 1/1 sleepers replacement

It's not supposed to be. Sleepers were such a huge QoL powercrepe that anything else to be a 1:1 replacement would be on the same level of laziness and mindless interaction.

not that im disagreeing with you, but calling anything you dont like "huge QoL powercrepe" is turning these terms into meaningless buzzwords which upsets me and you need to stop doing it ok

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/44088

time to shill my own pr shamelessly after breaking your spirits

Super Aggro Crag wrote:

These assholes aren't doing their job!

Just give more assholes access to it!

just result in more shitters making meth dude

Thats not an argument. Right now we have the case where ONLY shitters who make meth play chemist. If you give access to doctors who play the job to actually RP doctors then they can actually make medication.

If more people fight over chem dispensers, then fine.

Dr_bee wrote:Thats not an argument.

Is not an argument. Stop saying this like it makes your point for you when faced with something that is absolutely an argument against your proposal.

His prediction is well-taken. If you make chem functionally public access you'll just explode the number of people with easy access to grief chems and more people holding up more dispensers to make meth. Doctors would rather be healing people than dealing with chem mixes to make pharmaceuticals. If they weren't, they'd be chemists.

Thanks cedarbridge.

cedarbridge wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:Thats not an argument.

Is not an argument. Stop saying this like it makes your point for you when faced with something that is absolutely an argument against your proposal.

His prediction is well-taken. If you make chem functionally public access you'll just explode the number of people with easy access to grief chems and more people holding up more dispensers to make meth. Doctors would rather be healing people than dealing with chem mixes to make pharmaceuticals. If they weren't, they'd be chemists.

The problem with the argument is that by doing so you also deny access to healing chems. Increased access to grief chems would be a buff to medical but would also actually allow them to do their job effectively after possibly the largest nerf to the medical system in the game.

It is a shit argument because its the ''things will change if you change them'' argument. Of course more people will have access to chem if you increase access to chem, thats the whole point of the suggestion. In the past there might have been a concern about increased access to chem memery because that was really the only point of chemistry. But now there is an actual need for mass production of medicine so ''lol they will just make meth'' rings hollow.

right now the 2 chem dispensers used are used almost exclusively for shitty meme chems because chemists dont feel the need to actually make medicine. If you open up access to the rest of medical staff doctors can at least FIGHT to try to make meds, and it will open up freedom for medical gameplay a bit. If you dont feel like treating patients or there is a slow period you can make meds instead of waiting with your thumb up your ass for someone to stub their toe.

If they can fight to try and make chems then they can also get beat up for trying to make chems and then there are no chems to heal them. "Make people robust each other for the opportunity to do their job" isnt a good design plan. What if Security started naked and had to fist fight the warden for a pair of handcuffs? That'd be fucking stupid.

If only there was a role that was expected to administrate issues between medical and chemistry... like a chief... or an officer... of medical...

Cobby wrote:If only there was a role that was expected to administrate issues between medical and chemistry... like a chief... or an officer... of medical...

you know goddamn well theyre just a glorified MD

whose fault is that?

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Nalzul wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:Not a 1/1 sleepers replacement

It's not supposed to be. Sleepers were such a huge QoL powercrepe that anything else to be a 1:1 replacement would be on the same level of laziness and mindless interaction.

not that im disagreeing with you, but calling anything you dont like "huge QoL powercrepe" is turning these terms into meaningless buzzwords which upsets me and you need to stop doing it ok

How is it not a literal QoL power creep? Sleepers have be around for a long-ass time, but never in the state that they were for the past year. The point of them was to stabilize patients using chems, not be the end-all for healing (that is what cyro was intended for). With the advent of things like goonchem and T5 parts it pretty much became the second most desired machine to upgrade (the ORM being the first) because you could toss somebody in, shoot them up with more drugs than a heroin user, and throw them out of medbay.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:If they can fight to try and make chems then they can also get beat up for trying to make chems and then there are no chems to heal them. "Make people robust each other for the opportunity to do their job" isnt a good design plan. What if Security started naked and had to fist fight the warden for a pair of handcuffs? That'd be fucking stupid.

Science seems to share the entire department well. If somebody is already doing a job in science there is a very large chance another scientist will just say "ok" and move on to something else.

More like quit or suicide. There are only 2 interesting things to do in science and one is getting faxed it because N-not a job.

Nalzul wrote:Science seems to share the entire department well. If somebody is already doing a job in science there is a very large chance another scientist will just say "ok" and move on to something else.

This is a weak comparison. Medical and science aren't congruent. No part of science depends on any other part of science except for robotics/nanite training. Toxins functions perfectly fine if nobody does research. R&D doesn't care if somebody is in Xenobio or not.

Conversely, medical is very interconnected. MDs look to chemists for conditional use and general use medications.
MDs look to viro when they need somebody to lynch for the latest outbreak and then look to chem/CMO to convert a treated patient into a vaccine.
MDs look to genetics to cure certain mutations and traumas.

Each dependency isn't equally strong, but there's certainly a lot more interdependence in medical than there is in science. Before techwebs this might have been a more apt comparison.

Nalzul wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Nalzul wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:Not a 1/1 sleepers replacement

It's not supposed to be. Sleepers were such a huge QoL powercrepe that anything else to be a 1:1 replacement would be on the same level of laziness and mindless interaction.

not that im disagreeing with you, but calling anything you dont like "huge QoL powercrepe" is turning these terms into meaningless buzzwords which upsets me and you need to stop doing it ok

How is it not a literal QoL power creep?

QoL in the most literal form is not even a negative thing. A truly QoL change is strictly positive, and you're construing it as a negative because you're so far removed from the actual meaning.

"Powercreep" doesn't apply either since it's the process of things becoming more powerful by using other powerful things as justification with no reasonable limit, until eventually the original things are so weak in comparison to the new ones that they may as well not exist. Putting aside that this isn't even an adjective, sleepers don't really fall into this category at all considering they predate a lot of the shit currently in medbay (including goofchem). Your whole thing about them being for stabilizing and not for healing has pretty much never been true, at least in the past 5-6 years.

You literally don't even know what these words mean, yet you sling them like they're just synonyms for "bad."

Cobby wrote:whose fault is that?

No idea what you're getting at here but it sounds like:
- You're admitting that the code doesn't deal with things properly
- You're saying that maybe players could resolve it among themselves via the CMO
- You're acknowledging that that fails entirely, yet you plan to do nothing about it

So basically you're just saying "yeah things don't work and we have no plans to fix them" so what's your point?

i think everything would only improve by giving medical chem access and removing the chemist role

NecromancerAnne wrote:I mean, we could throw code solutions at it, but maybe consider that killing people just to clone them when alternatives exist and can be used should probably, actually, be a rule 1 break.

Is it really a rule 1 break when you're doing it for the sake of efficiency and not to be an asshole? If I have like 20 patients in medbay I don't have the time to do lengthy surgery that takes like 5+ fucking minutes when I could throw them into the cloner and they're out in like 2.

Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

That's more of a way to make brigging someone take a really long time.

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

This will break Xenomorphs, Slaughter-Demons, Laughter-Demons, Abductors and more.

Yet no one will give a shit except for me. Orange-Man sure as hell won't unless their monarchist behavior is just a facade and a persona.

MisterPerson wrote:

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

That's more of a way to make brigging someone take a really long time.

again last pr made the slowdown not apply to standing people, thus shake the cuffed suspect onto their feet.
and as I told shadow every single antag it nerfs kinda deserves it (especially demons, because they have the ability to stay hidden indefinitely, with the only counter being letting it eat you after a certain bar drink or setting off an ACTUAL HOLY WATER BOMB which will clearly cause massive damage)

Shadowflame909 wrote:

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

This will break Xenomorphs, Slaughter-Demons, Laughter-Demons, Abductors and more.

Yet no one will give a shit except for me. Orange-Man sure as hell won't unless their monarchist behavior is just a facade and a persona.

Xenos: Good. Fuck em.
Slaughter-Demons: As above. Already laughably powerful. I wouldn't shed a tear.
Laughter-Demons: As above. Neither of the demons even goes terribly far from a blood spot anyway.
Abductors: Rarely move bodies a whole lot anyway. They don't need turbodrag to be functional when they can already perfectly pick out isolated targets.

MisterPerson wrote:

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

That's more of a way to make brigging someone take a really long time.

didn't the drag slowdown PR make it so standing people weren't affected by it?
we could just ammend the wiki where it recommends having sentence time be counted from the moment you cuff to not apply when prisoners resist being dragged by resting or adding that conduct to the crime of resisting arrest to dissuade people from making officers' lives harder