/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Unfortunately, more nerfs are coming down the coding pipeline, specifically this: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9895

By the creator of this thread no less, which means our feedback was completely pointless and ignored. What else is new.

Which leads me to more points:

Traitor items are too significant. It should be entirely possible for a traitor to never touch his uplink, instead relying on departmental items. The game is moving farther and farther away from this, and as a result, traitor items are both subject to insane creep (we have too many of them as it is) and relied on, boringly, in lieu of more creative, makeshift, improvised, sabotage-based, fun traitoring.

Most steal objectives are complete bullshit, more so than before. There were always one-off items like the RCD that you could just lathe, but now they're almost all like this. Corgi meat? Forget about kidnapping Ian, just wait for science to get a corgi cannon that shits out hundreds of them. Jetpack? Just ask a miner sitting on thousands of pointless points. Medal of captaincy? No need to kill the captain, just break the medal box. Meanwhile the objectives that typically required high-risk murder, like spare jumpsuits, are gone. Once again, it's a lot of seemingly innocuous changes combining to sap all the challenge and fun from traitoring.

Oh... oh oh oh okay.

> Acid nerfs.

What's there really left in terms of departmental weaponry? Medbay has poisons I guess, but it's not like that's not going to give them 15+ seconds to run away from you and head to medbay/elsewhere and PDA (if mutadoned) for help. You can't even sabotage cryo with poisons because it lists what's inside the machines on the same interface when you're throwing people in. Viruses are still robust, I guess, but that's only because the nerfhammer hasn't targeted them in years, probably because, in large, only incompetent/new viros tend to play viro.

Science? All the equipment is locked behind the fucking armory, or, at least an emag thanks to the retarded firing pin change, instead of just an ID, making any antag but traitor unable to use departmental equipment even if they manage to get armory access. So we have bombs in R&D, and really really slow, RNG-based and unrobust slimes. Your best bet in xenobio is to beeline golems, pray, and laugh as they get knocked down from broken glass or get robusted by not having a single piece of equipment, low move speed, and so on. The HoP at the point you can get them used to be usually dead or gone at that juncture (but now fucknothing happens in traitor so you're more liable for a bored shuttlecall at that point), so that's part of a crapshoot too. Telescience is gone, and getting the high tech requirement up so you can build it, THEN teleporting crap makes it really ineffective/inefficient to do anything subtle.

Robotics is alright. Mechs are nice, borgs are nice, but the removal of self-surgery means you can no longer augment yourself with the tools available, give yourself plastic surgery if need be, or even implant yourself with a voice-analyzed explosive, emag (you could, in the good old days, not seal the wound and take out the item at any time so long as you were lying down), or whatever brought from toxins for either escape, or a suicide bombing. Instead you have to rely on your dumbfuck collegue to A. not rat you out, B. do procedures on you and ignore that you're implanting traitor gear or explosives, instead of getting their valids on, C. that they're somehow competent enough to do it, and D. they're present in the first place / don't fuck off immediately. This goes under medbay as well, but all these interesting creative uses of mechanics were removed without a just thought by someone who never used or cared about it. Imagine if Toady did exactly that, saw 'fun' and interesting bugs and just tossed them out because they were bugs, even if they became valid, interesting, and engaging game mechanics. Dwarf Fortress would have long since been sapped of much of it's flavour.

Botany is almost as good as it used to be, even if deathnettles are nerfed. I'll cry when someone nerfs it to the ground, inevitably, in another couple months.

Engineering has a bunch of things to fuck up, but they're so easy to fix/revert by someone competent in only a minute~, minus singuloth, even with a syndicate bomb in the middle of tcomms. They get stunprods, I guess, but who doesn't?

Assistants get fucknothing but what they can loot or convince people to give them. Often just a medkit, tools, water, and maybe a stunprod or sunglasses at most. Toolboxes were nerfed, armor buffed overall and I feel like they don't random KO anywhere near as much. They used to be an item all assistants would carry with them, and now they're entirely forsaken.

Cargo is mostly unnerfed and still a force of nature predicated on having an emag or armory access. I believe you can still open them with emitters (please don't change), even.

Security gets all the bells and whistles that only really works against non-sunglassed / HUDed crew. AOE flash spam is ridiculously overpowered, given that it only affects antagonists (who usually don't have sunglasses/HUDs initially), don't burn out anywhere near as quickly in the past, completely cripples them (you can't even dodge using your memory of the area because it fucks your movement too), and it also means that in conjunct with a flashbang there's literally zero way for an antagonist to kill any competent security guard without sunglasses from maintenance, which are typically looted at roundstart. That's just shit design.

So yeah, basically all of the departments are donkey shit these days compared to the past when looked at in comparison to security, at least, from an antagonist's perspective, and now you're nerfing acid after seeing the results of this poll? Fuck you goof, I bet you were one of the guys who voted for 'extremely safe'.

I stopped taking Amelius seriously the moment he mentioned golems getting knocked down by walking on glass shards. Just shows how out of touch he is.

Oh wow, he got one change made last week without any fanfare wrong! Everything he says is a LIE!

Dorsi, well. I do disagree with everything else. But I am just a dick.

bandit wrote:Unfortunately, more nerfs are coming down the coding pipeline, specifically this: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9895

By the creator of this thread no less, which means our feedback was completely pointless and ignored. What else is new.

I expect nothing less.

why do these threads always turn into "we should revert every balance change ever made and this will magically improve tgstation"

Miauw wrote:why do these threads always turn into "we should revert every balance change ever made and this will magically improve tgstation"

thugbox lobby

Miauw wrote:why do these threads always turn into "we should revert every balance change ever made and this will magically improve tgstation"

Because certain balance changes failed to improve the game, and instead detracted from it. Therefore, reverting them would be an improvement.

Gun Hog wrote:

Miauw wrote:why do these threads always turn into "we should revert every balance change ever made and this will magically improve tgstation"

Because certain balance changes failed to improve the game, and instead detracted from it. Therefore, reverting them would be an improvement.

Pretty much this. Not all merges are good for the game.

Bring instastun all-range tasers back, when, then?

DemonFiren wrote:Bring instastun all-range tasers back, when, then?

I miss old energy guns, I miss 'em

Remember the brief period when taser jitter lasted for ages, and people really just never fell down? (I distinctly remember a funny bug it caused where people could actually be perma-stunlocked by turrets because turrets kept shooting the jittering person)

I think we need more ways to make traps. Not necessarily antag-specific stuff (which dodges the telecrystal and non-traitor antag issues), but booby-traps that you could cobble together out of station materials. Tripwires that slam doors closed. Optical sensors hooked up to a taser to make a non-lethal area denial turret. Pressure plates. Electrified floors. That sort of thing.

EndgamerAzari wrote:I think we need more ways to make traps. Not necessarily antag-specific stuff (which dodges the telecrystal and non-traitor antag issues), but booby-traps that you could cobble together out of station materials. Tripwires that slam doors closed. Optical sensors hooked up to a taser to make a non-lethal area denial turret. Pressure plates. Electrified floors. That sort of thing.

That would be really really cool actually. We'd probably need to upsize stationwise for that to work effectively though, given set-up time.

I like a mix of rounds tbh.

Sometimes I just wanna chill and mix chemicals as people come by asking for them. Sometimes I like blitz rounds which end in less than fifteen minutes.

muh acids

dude you have like 20000 other death chems available to you now why can't you use something other than acid

please explain to me how it's fun to have all your equipment go away with 1 click

actually fuck this i'm closing it someone else take the fall for this one

If you had actually read my post instead of immediately dismissing it as complaining and then screaming in OOC, you would have the reason:

bandit wrote:Traitor items are too significant. It should be entirely possible for a traitor to never touch his uplink, instead relying on departmental items. The game is moving farther and farther away from this, and as a result, traitor items are both subject to insane creep (we have too many of them as it is) and relied on, boringly, in lieu of more creative, makeshift, improvised, sabotage-based, fun traitoring.

It is fun to be both on the receiving and dishing-out ends of people using the items in their department to lethal ends, far more fun than yet another esword or ebow. It is also fun to have to think creatively to overcome melted items.

ThatSlyFox wrote:

Gun Hog wrote:

Miauw wrote:why do these threads always turn into "we should revert every balance change ever made and this will magically improve tgstation"

Because certain balance changes failed to improve the game, and instead detracted from it. Therefore, reverting them would be an improvement.

Pretty much this. Not all merges are good for the game.

and yet nobody ever provides arguments as to why, or which merges specifically

and people using departmental items for traitoring IS good, but how much were those really nerfed?

Miauw wrote:

ThatSlyFox wrote:

Gun Hog wrote:

Miauw wrote:why do these threads always turn into "we should revert every balance change ever made and this will magically improve tgstation"

Because certain balance changes failed to improve the game, and instead detracted from it. Therefore, reverting them would be an improvement.

Pretty much this. Not all merges are good for the game.

and yet nobody ever provides arguments as to why, or which merges specifically

and people using departmental items for traitoring IS good, but how much were those really nerfed?

Well let's see. Spray bottles have a delay now, R&D can't be used for anything antagonistic but BoH and AI boards, unless you have an emag/you're a traitor specifically or magically convince the HoS/Captain to provide you with firing pins from the fucking armory. I suppose you could try to convince cargo to spend a shit ton of points on it (good luck), which then you could open with an armory ID. So that's pretty much entirely gone for any non-traitor antagonist. Telescience was removed that used to be able to be used to do all sorts of stuff (acquire equipment 'legally', steal the armory albeit with obvious sounds and visuals, etc.), to be replaced with the experimentor - something essentially useless that will, more times than not, kill you, and if you manage to get something useful, chances are it will kill you before you can use it nefariously.

Medbay has nerfed genetics (far more disabilities than before, so it takes much longer to find powers when it was already the longest taking research-oriented job on the station). OD/addiction mechanics entail that you can't abuse chemistry to give yourself buffs like you could in the past, given how crippling they are. Buffed upgrading (bluespace RPED esp.) means that cloning ends up upgraded much earlier than it usually was, meaning people are constantly being brought back into the round at an insane rate, and you can't even kill anyone permanently without taking out the cloner itself due to autobackup and the 5-10 people who go to back themselves up, often including high priority targets (heads). To excaberate this, those same people will cry murder on you post-cloning, so you can't even ditch em subtlely. Even if you take out the cloner, at that stage R&D will simply make a new one, either from tech storage boards or from R&D, so what's even the point?

Then there's cargo. Cargo was nerfed in only one way, there's now a transit time between the station and Centcom, which effectively doubles the time taken per shipment. This also means that it's harder to sneak in illict gear and such between shipments without killing all your collegues. Other than that, business as usual.

Then there's security who has, as previously explained, spammable bullshit AoE flashes that renders any strategem and equipment null if you don't have sunglasses, which come in very limited, and competitive supply stationwide. In the past, you weren't disoriented by the AoE flash (so you could operate by memory), but also the bulb would long since have burned out after the first few consecutive flashes, instead of lasting for 10+ consecutive spams, crippling the antagonist. Regardless, this means confronting an officer in combat, rather than bullshitting them, requires a specific piece of equipment, which is just bad design. Flashbangs you can, at least, go around the corner, and they require prep-time so you know one is being used anyway, while flashes have no cooldown and can be used without warning. Just put them back to their old-fashioned regular stun, seriously. Helmetcams are in a similar vein where there's simply no counterplay (you can turn them off, but by that time they'll already know the assailant and where you are, even if the victim only managed to get a 'HELP' off, given that the warden, more often than not is looking at cameras anyway), and hence they're ridiculously poor design.

Fast atmos means that flamethrowers, an atmos mainstay, are entirely useless as territory denial devices, for causing chaos, or even in combat. Seriously, the flame dissipates almost instantly on default settings (rather than lasting for quite a while), so you can't even keep an officer on fire with the residual flame while abusing the atmos or CE hardsuit, meaning the officer will have time to leisurely arrest you and roll around on the ground. It's pretty much a flat nerf, and it makes them almost entirely useless. You can use more fuel, of course, however, this has the nasty byproduct of only permitting a couple shots before reloading (with very bulky plasma tanks) or heading to atmos to refill, and even then it still quickly dissipates. It's also a fairly major nerf to plasma fires, making them last much shorter periods. On the plus side, it buffs hull breaches substantially.

Mining, do I even have to talk about mining? Skill requirement is rock-bottom when it used to be decently high, the mining rewards are a massive joke (stims, the primary long-term reward doesn't even work in hardsuits), and 100% of the job relies on R&D and robotics being nice enough to spare you with some equipment or an item. A good litmus test to determine if a job is rewarding, is to ask if an antagonist would want to perform it, in some capacity for the inevitable boons. What do antagonists even get from mining for 20 minutes, other than a jetpack you can steal from EVA with a single hacked door? Some brute resistance from goliaths, at most, but given the clunkiness of hardsuits and helmets being connected to the main body of hardsuits, in conjunct with the stim rewards no longer working in hardsuits, means that the brute resistance is effecitvely useless, since you'll want to be running with your hardsuit in your hand most of the time as an antagonist for the speed and evasiveness benefits, which, in stun-centric combat, is the most important trait. Now, if stims worked in hardsuits again, and we removed the stupid muh realism change that you can't injest food/pills through a hardsuit helmet/mask, and the stims provided by the machine aren't weighed down by OD/addiction mechanics, it would actually be worth using stims for both mining as a non-antag, and for doing things as an antagonist.

It's worth saying that having antag rolls before job rolls also entails that security has gotten alot more robust and populated overall, compared to the past. It was a drastically needed change, but definitely consider it in the scope of balance.

Then there's slowspace, which means that disabling the gravgen is basically an invalid strategy for non-AI antagonists, especially hardsuited antagonists to get around weight and speed restrictions of most folks in engineering/atmos/mining with hardsuits. Jetpacks don't propel you anywhere near as fast as zero-grav used to, and they force you to occupy a hand with your backpack which is a crippling nerf for being able to, as antagonist, be disarmed by a single assistant to have someone discover all your traitor gear. The super fast speed also meant that everyone could easily outrun taser bullets and whatnot, so it would overall make things more chaotic for security to handle. It also meant, on the flipside, that combating someone with a jetpack in space, an open area where chances are, you aren't going to hit your mark on your first few taser shots, it's actually possible for some poor guy with no hardsuit dragged out there to actually win, since they were unrestrained in speed from injury, and all it took was for them to get just a wee bit too close. Basically, slowspace just buffed jetpack-wielding antagonists from space to an insane extent (as Rob Ust demonstrated), but nerfed them heavily indoors, which is really the opposite of what should have happened. Probably my most hated change since I've started playing here. It should be evidence enough that the AI and power issues have become the only things that actually disable the gravity generator since the change.

Oh yeah, and there were also a couple flat traitor nerfs. The ebow, an old murderboner mainstay has become a one-shot joke instead of a rechargeable nighmare for security. If you miss, an officer will get two taser shots in in the meanwhile, which tilts things far toward security. C4s no longer can be planted on people. Parapens and parasting no longer exist, so that there's almost zero risk or fear of death being adjacent to someone else.

Probably forgetting some other stuff, like self-surgery being removed, or positronic brains meaning that you have a constantly growing validhunting cyborg army (that can be subverted, I suppose, but it does add vastly more power to the AI monolith unless the roboticist is specifically a traitor and emagging them).

Oh yeah, one more thing. Handheld suit sensor suites means that, now, instead of only having the AI and maybe CMO and a head on-and-off looking at suit sensors, you now have several medics on top of that spamming that button every minute or two to find something to do, thus resulting in security/medbay response to the area even IF you kill someone quietly who just so happen have their sensors on.

Amelius wrote:I suppose you could try to convince cargo to spend a shit ton of points on it (good luck), which then you could open with an armory ID. So that's pretty much entirely gone for any non-traitor antagonist.

Changelings can EMP open crates in Cargo, and a lot of Cargonians would be fine with giving you a firing pin crate under the table if you give them a gun in return.

Not to mention (apologies if any of these are different, I try to keep up with code changes but in a lot of cases I simply stop trying shit):

- Everyone and their fucking grandmother has maintenance access, including normal security officers. Expanded maintenance was somewhat of a help but in practice you have a high chance of being found if you try funny business. Especially bad for blobs.

- It's a lot harder for Cargo to crack open crates without an emag. The fact that cargotide happened regularly should have been handled via policy, not via code.

- Shocking doors and grilles does a comically low amount of damage. False walls and traps take a comically long time to construct from what they used to take. The only real way for an engineer to effectively sabotage the station is to release the singularity, which now happens so often it's fucking boring.

- Poisoning drinks? You can just examine it and be able to instantly tell, somehow, that this glass of vodka is actually vodka and chloral. Poisoning food? New cooking, plus the ability to upgrade microwaves, plus the ability to order pizzas en masse, means that either there's no food to poison or that the chef has shat out enough food to feed the entire galactic population of Nanotrasen, and good luck getting anyone to eat your one in 50 pizza slices. Speaking of:

- Chloral, morphine and other soporifics were nerfed to kick in roughly around the same time as the heat death of the universe. It is almost impossible to incapacitate someone now. This is a case of "why we can't have nice things" as it was abused for cheesy tactics, but it is a significant nerf.

- Beneficial virology was buffed tremendously, which on the one had was a much-needed boost to the department but means that in many rounds, fucking everyone has instant heal and/or superpowers. Meanwhile, traitorous virology has either been steadily nerfed (GBS) or made trivially easy to cure.

- Where it was once possible to sneak into the AI upload unnoticed, now it's much more difficult due to its location. The AI core is a fucking fortress.

- Speaking of the AI, traitor AI and traitor cyborg are either nonexistent or incredibly rare, turning one of the most powerful forces on the station into a reliable Validhunters 'R' Us Squad. The same has resulted from security antag being disabled. It is strange that people recognize this about silicons but not about security.

Basically, a core part of the appeal of the game -- that anybody, in any department of the station, could sabotage that department to cause mayhem -- has been replaced with a lot of interchangeable traitors and their box of toys that people choose the same four toys out of every time.

Traitor cyborg is interesting and does not currently exist because "too many antag rolls" for silicons, last I asked

Thing is though a traitor borg is independent of the AI and once it self hacks can pretty much go an kill the AI if it wants to.

AI can't stop em.

Incomptinence wrote:Thing is though a traitor borg is independent of the AI and once it self hacks can pretty much go an kill the AI if it wants to.

AI can't stop em.

It's not about that. It's about how, at roundstart, the cyborg rolls for being a traitor itself and then rolls again for its AI being a traitor. People were explicitly playing cyborg solely because it was double dipping for antag status.

MisterPerson wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:Thing is though a traitor borg is independent of the AI and once it self hacks can pretty much go an kill the AI if it wants to.

AI can't stop em.

It's not about that. It's about how, at roundstart, the cyborg rolls for being a traitor itself and then rolls again for its AI being a traitor. People were explicitly playing cyborg solely because it was double dipping for antag status.

So? All that meant is that the role would always be populated, and is that even a concern? Besides, antag rolls are done before roles at this point, so shouldn't this be a null factor?

Cyborg is one of the most popular roles as it is currently, without the antag roll. I think that's isolated behavior.

As for being able to kill the AI, this is unfortunately another balance problem with the current AI sat. Under normal circumstances, you should be able to card the AI and take it to the integrity restorer, and then it will be a non-threat. However, the current turret setup makes this very difficult, as it will be heavily fortified even without an active AI (and without an active AI to turn everything off.) There are ways to do it, but they are incredibly annoying and risky, more than they should be. And that's without the borg trying to stop you.

MisterPerson wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:Thing is though a traitor borg is independent of the AI and once it self hacks can pretty much go an kill the AI if it wants to.

AI can't stop em.

It's not about that. It's about how, at roundstart, the cyborg rolls for being a traitor itself and then rolls again for its AI being a traitor. People were explicitly playing cyborg solely because it was double dipping for antag status.

I remember it as "AI has to be able to trust its borgs"

That and it couldn't stop its borg from killing it roundstart

AI already double dips with chances to be hacked anyway/borgs can get emagged.

Miauw wrote: and yet nobody ever provides arguments as to why, or which merges specifically

I made a long list of specific changes and how and why they've negatively impacted things. I even acknowledged the benefits of such changes rather than shouting "its all bad revert"

Other people have listed examples as well. You can disagree with the examples but responding to several long lists with "you guys have no arguments" isnt much of a conversation.

for cyborgs, they already roll for 1) traitor AI 2) roboticist with an emag 3) somebody subverting the AI. I think they get enough antag rolls.

Kor, I can't really see the list in this thread. you've listed the changes but only listed the reasons they were REMOVED.
i think it's also telling that people seem to think entirely in "REVERT THIS", as if that is the only possible solution.

In some cases, for some particularly bad nerfs, then yes, it is the only possible solution that will not result in jury-rigged inconsistent crap and/or feature creep.

Miauw wrote:for cyborgs, they already roll for 1) traitor AI 2) roboticist with an emag 3) somebody subverting the AI. I think they get enough antag rolls.

Kor, I can't really see the list in this thread. you've listed the changes but only listed the reasons they were REMOVED.
i think it's also telling that people seem to think entirely in "REVERT THIS", as if that is the only possible solution.

By that logic, an assistant rolls for 1) station antags 2) rev convert 4)suicide then becoming a syndieborg 5) suicide then becoming an apprentice 6)cult convert 7) suicide then becoming an event blob 8) suicide then becoming an event xeno 9) suicide then becoming a ninja

And 3) Dorsi forgetting numbers.

Yeah i dont see how a borg getting those four rolls is somehow worse than a human rolling for traitor, and changeling, and cult, and wizard, and rev, and nuke op, and gang leader.

A borg rolls for wizard and operative too, since antag selections come before jobs now.

Even so humans still have more.

Here's a better question - why is it important that borgs have equal antag opportunity to humans? Especially when borgs, in and of themselves are bound by severe laws and such (esp. roundstart borgs), so even from that perspective, it makes sense for there to be a higher chance of being freed of those laws.

Just sayin'.

Death should be a thing that you don't want to happen.
It should be something that you go "wow, I really don't want this to happen to me because if it does I will lose my character for the rest of the round and I will have to sit out and cry on the sidelines giving out half time oranges to everyone else."
What is death at this very moment?
"Oh no I'm going to die which will inconvenience me for a few minutes or at worse my body will be hidden and I will be found in 20 minutes.". The old scare of being eaten by a changeling and having to have the whole lengthy process of either getting your brain put in another body or having to be put in a borg was what drove people to do stuff worthy of telling other people. Whilst yes, sleepy pen and C4 was scummy, it was not worthy of being nerfed to the ground and put into the stinky piss pit of the annals of /tg/ history. It was a legitimate tactic and whilst I don't know how prevalent it was on Sybil I can tell you know it was never very prevalent on #2.

Does death have to be fun? No. I don't know where the coders got this idea that death has to be fun for all parties involved. That was never a criteria, if you died, there was a reason for that, however arbitrary it may seem, your health reached zero and now you are dead. If you were removed from the round fucking tough, you were removed from the round. I can kinda see what you're doing, "The playerbase do not have favourable opinions of us so let us try and tackle a problem that they have of being removed from the round forever." except you were listening to the feedback of fucking babies. As Kor said, SS13's foundation is that you are in a DEATHTRAP. The only real time this becomes a deathtrap is when the singularity gets out. Was this how it used to be? God fucking no, there used to be a time where one robust antag could kill a large majority of the population of the station, through either pure dumb luck or skill, either way, it was not fun for both parties involved but it was a fucking deathtrap. It never had to be fun for the everyone, it was never meant to be and the fact that you are now trying to make it... it makes no sense. The more you give, the more they take. You begin by nerfing weapon damage, buffing armour, making everything the same and then you make the problem that SS13's combat is just whoever gets the stun off first even more vibrant.

Being killed in a fun and exciting way should always be the exception, not the norm, because death is not fun. That is why you try and stay away from dying. I can tell you now if people were more scared of dying that validhunting would go down if ever so slightly, not many people would go hunting for antags if they faced expulsion from the round.

Dude you have some good points but parapen c4 was shit and had no counterplay

parasting/pen was the absolute height of lethality - but it made for extremely shitty gameplay where every single person refused to ever stand near anyone else because they might pull a pen on you and you're dead and gibbed with 1 click - no possible counterplay.

Hell, remember when you could gib with welding tanks? Shit's gay son.

People are happy to risk life and limb, with high chances of exploding horribly (see: hordes of plebs attacking nuke ops), but people do not like ggnore shit where there's no actual gameplay.

Also regarding access to weapons:
R&D can make infinite every mineral (except uranium or some shit, dunno why), which means they can make ion carbines with test range pins.
You then ask cargo for pins/combatshotguns. If you offer then guns in return, those motherfuckers NEVER say no.
They send wrapped crates to science, you emp them open on the test range and bam, you go yourself 14 guns worth of pins, per crate.
R&D is also the only easy source of infinite bomb cap grenades, thanks to bluespace beakers.

Medbay is all good (although doctors themselves are pretty fucked, barring morphine OD'ing people with sleepers, and hilarious emagged defib hijinks).
Chemists are still easily the most lethal round start job in the game - acid or no. In 5 minutes you can make darts that WILL kill anyone that they actually hit, unless they're get chucked right into cryo. They also have access to mute toxin via perfluro, and if they pinch the damp rag from the bar, it's a no delay click to mute item.
Geneticists have hulk and monkey SE's.
A good viro can make like 30 different strains of RAPE, and unleash them on the crew, who will proceed to go blind, vomit blood every where while they scream in agony and randomly combust.


If there was a ghetto way to get potassium, then it would be really easy to make shitloads of really interesting (and lethal) traps and shit.
A simple water/pot nade won't hurt anyone too badly on it's own, but with careful positioning and the correct trigger mechanism, you can make extremely deadly traps that will impale people with a stack of metal rods/glass shards and instant death them, for walking in the wron places. Great in maint.

lumipharon wrote:Hell, remember when you could gib with welding tanks? Shit's gay son.

Honestly I don't have an issue with this. Fuel tanks are in limited supply and the only way to blow them up without being dead-centered in the blast zone yourself is to have a gun (or flamethrower but those are pretty destructive). It did suck mad dicks for changelings, though.

The problem is that you can rig fuel tanks.

MisterPerson wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:Thing is though a traitor borg is independent of the AI and once it self hacks can pretty much go an kill the AI if it wants to.

AI can't stop em.

It's not about that. It's about how, at roundstart, the cyborg rolls for being a traitor itself and then rolls again for its AI being a traitor. People were explicitly playing cyborg solely because it was double dipping for antag status.

My points were positives. Pfft double dipping. Like security there were roundtypes these little tugs could not be antags in like rev, cult, changeling or wizard. But hey since we crank traitors to the max let's ignore that our round type distribution is the main unbalancing factor here.

It is the difference between being your own master and a slave, an independent traitor cyborg is a creative spin on a role that tends to just get pushed around by one person or the other.

Taterborgs still are the uncounterable bane of any AI, though.

An AI chooses. A borg obeys. That was meant to be.

DemonFiren wrote:Taterborgs still are the uncounterable bane of any AI, though.

An AI chooses. A borg obeys. That was meant to be.

Removal of traitor borg was probbably the single biggest buff that the AI ever got, though. Especially once it got put on the sat.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

lumipharon wrote:Hell, remember when you could gib with welding tanks? Shit's gay son.

Honestly I don't have an issue with this. Fuel tanks are in limited supply and the only way to blow them up without being dead-centered in the blast zone yourself is to have a gun (or flamethrower but those are pretty destructive). It did suck mad dicks for changelings, though.

With the cloning upgrades I don't have a problem with this being re-added.

Most people never get scanned though.
So either every gets gibbed by fueltanks and fireballs again, or every gets scanned in the autocloner and even LESS people stay dead.

Honestly I just don't like autocloners.

lumipharon wrote:Most people never get scanned though.
So either every gets gibbed by fueltanks and fireballs again, or every gets scanned in the autocloner and even LESS people stay dead.

Honestly I just don't like autocloners.

Which is more of a reason to take out the fucking cloner and/or R&D. When was the last time you saw anyone bomb genetics?

bandit wrote:Which is more of a reason to take out the fucking cloner and/or R&D. When was the last time you saw anyone bomb genetics?

I've blown up genetics twice over the last two days. It's how you get the shuttle called.

Remove all door safeties, let retards who stand in doorways too long get crushed.

PROS:
ADDS AMBIENT NON-PLAYER HAZARDS TO THE STATION.
GIVES ROGUE AI BENEFIT OF DOUBT OF "I DIDN'T DO IT, HE WAS PROBABLY STANDING THERE TOO LONG".

CONS:
CRYBABIES

invisty wrote:

bandit wrote:Which is more of a reason to take out the fucking cloner and/or R&D. When was the last time you saw anyone bomb genetics?

I've blown up genetics twice over the last two days. It's how you get the shuttle called.

Really? Because in every round I've played how the shuttle gets called is when the singularity inevitably gets loose due to sabotage or, more likely, incompetence.

We are at an interesting point with power. On one hand the singulo is pretty easy to set, incredibly easy to release, and our alternative in solar power has no real downsides. We have the supermatter, which is dangerous to a lesser degree than the singulo and requires some upkeep. One school of thought is that we replace the singulo with the supermatter.

On one hand this will prevent round end by black hole, which happens incredibly often even on server 2.
The opposing argument is that running from ol singuloth is a fun, time honored ss13 tradition we should not mess with. I think that it might be a nice idea to trial, especially if we are making extra deadliness in other ways.