/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

That's because armor doesn't block stamina damage.

And SMGs deal 65 stamina damage per bullet.

Increasing armor values isn't going to help you in this case.

Well holy fuck.
So you're saying it takes as many bullets/disablers/whathaveyou to take down the captain as it does the butt ass naked assistant?

I mean, stam damage for bullets was a good idea, as it lends strength to puny bullets that otherwise seem sad, but that seems like an oversight that needs fixed.
Because once someone is dropped, it's just a matter of beating them with fire extinguisher.

Oldman Robustin wrote:stuff

HoS armor and sec vests did not have their bullet resist touched. Not at all.

It's getting very frustrating repeating that. People died in 2 revolver shots before the update and they died in 2 revolver shots afterwards. Some people have heard the words "armor nerf" and now attribute all their deaths to it without reading the change at all, or the reasoning behind it. It probably doesn't help that the OP of this post presents my argument as "Kor wants eswords to hit harder" and little else.

(This does not apply to everyone, several people definitely understand the changes and have well articulated views disagreeing with me. Riot armor and bulletproof for example I agree I didnt balance properly)

hos hat and beret bullet res did go down though, not that it's relevent to that specific case.

lumipharon wrote:hos hat and beret bullet res did go down though, not that it's relevent to that specific case.

Nor in most cases because their bodies have always been basically unprotected. Sec could probably stand to gain some bullet resist on their basic stuff honestly

I'd rather see disabler resistance honestly, as it would help with friendly fire, and keep you running and mobile in a gun fight with a potato.
But actually surviving more hits than anyone else with the normal armor? I'm not sure that'd be all that decent, Save bullet resistance for bullet proof armor.

edit: or keep it reasonably light on bullet resistance.

I'd been led to believe that stam damage was effected by armor just the same as any other damage. Are you certain it isn't?

Also sec has low bullet resist to let traitors/ops (and now gang) to actually be able to take them down. Any higher then their 15 bullet resist means 3 hit crits for revolvers/shotguns.
They have 3 sets of bulletproof gear in the armory for a reason.

I believe disablers were subject to laser defense originally but the type was changed to the same energy projectile type as tasers due to them being near useless on anyone in a vest. The way paprika made these beams work they function at a bare minimum on an unprotected human despite me suggesting to the contrary so any reduction makes them pretty much worthless.

Kor wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:stuff

HoS armor and sec vests did not have their bullet resist touched. Not at all.

It's getting very frustrating repeating that. People died in 2 revolver shots before the update and they died in 2 revolver shots afterwards. Some people have heard the words "armor nerf" and now attribute all their deaths to it without reading the change at all, or the reasoning behind it. It probably doesn't help that the OP of this post presents my argument as "Kor wants eswords to hit harder" and little else.

(This does not apply to everyone, several people definitely understand the changes and have well articulated views disagreeing with me. Riot armor and bulletproof for example I agree I didnt balance properly)

Well as Ikarrus pointed out it happens to be a result of a different branch of stupid new code, still like the idea of HoS as the final boss of the crew. He still dies to every fucking kind of stun, but at least give him the perk of being able to take some hits if it comes to it.

So now I'm going to go rant about stamina damage then.

These stam bullets

My god

lumipharon wrote:Also sec has low bullet resist to let traitors/ops (and now gang) to actually be able to take them down. Any higher then their 15 bullet resist means 3 hit crits for revolvers/shotguns.

(I'm assuming you mean shotgun slugs here, since buckshot is either awful or hilarious.)
Security is critted in two shots from a revolver or shotgun; unarmoured people are critted in two shots from a revolver or shotgun...
... so what's the point of the armour?

At this point it's more of a aesthetic.

Because that's not the only projectile weapon in the game, nightingale.

One thing that came up recently, that I brought up, is that we really need to figure out exactly where we want to take combat, armour, defence and everything else related to our combat system in some kind of design document.

Right now we've got wildly ranging opinions on how strong or weak security should be and all this will do is involve us in another 'Security Sprite War' as people bring up their own PR's that get argued over and merged.

I played a few HoS rounds today and boy, you sure die extremely quickly as the HoS now.

Good.

Could you elaborate on the circumstances in which you died?

Ikarrus wrote:Good.

This is the main conundrum we face, one side advocates that security should be relativity easy for antagonists to kill while the other side advocates that security should be somewhat harder to kill. I should note that no one wants security to be extremely hard to kill, which is what I think Ikarrus might be mistaking my position to be.

Kor wrote:Could you elaborate on the circumstances in which you died?

There were two circumstances that I died in recently that I can recall, the first was when a Nuke Op Syndi Borg fired off two 40mm rounds at me, before someone fired off one or two bullet rounds to finish me off. Admittedly 40mm and other uses bullet defence values but it was still sudden, the main concern is that I had no opportunity to react as I was knocked down instantly and could not get back up or even call for help.

The second circumstance was someone with a energy sword stunning me once then attacking me. Normally I would have been able to stand back up before the attacker could kill me and then retaliate but I entered critical very quickly (I went into crit after five or six attacks I think).

I should note that in both circumstances I was the HoS.

-----

Honestly if we're going to go down the route of sec being easy to take out then we should just remove armour from security, since armour means you might survive one extra attack at best.

Sounds like it's having an intended effect
ie making the HoS easier to kill.

But is that a good thing? Honestly it depends on your point of view but the near universal approach that all (ALL) other servers go for is that at the very least the HoS is the hardest person on station to kill, and for very good reason as he's typically seen and acts as the final and biggest barrier for antagonists.

If we're not too careful we are going to keep nerfing and nerfing security until its ineffectual and antagonists only have to fear vigilantes, or more realisticlly you'll find the HoS position vacant as any competent HoS player will start playing as a Officer or not even play Sec when they realise the benfits of being the HoS are non-exsistant. Goonstation had this problem and it took a lot of time, effort and coding to turn the HoS from a joke position into a respectable and powerful role.

Security was perfectly fine to play as back when armor was RNG and antagonists were far more overpowered than they are now.

I feel that security's recent position has spoiled the lot of you. That's why I really don't have any sympathies towards these "concerns".

Do I have to remind you that mathematically the difference between RNG armour and current armour is identical? You took the same amount of damage under both systems.

Secondly instead of just nerfing sec, then nerfing antags, then nerfing sec again why don't we instead, oh I don't know, buff antagonists?

E: Or is it just easier to nerf then to add? Many of us, including me, have been advocating for buffing antags for a while so why don't we try that.

Security's recent position? Excuse yourself, You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Police state? You are completely deluded if you think security is, or has ever been in a good position to take on the ravenous mob of shitlers who are ready and waiting for the excuse to take down "the man" The very idea that you think that's something security is capable of as it stands Irks me to my core.

play HoS, and then come back and tell me how enacting the police state went for you.

Security was also fine when literally everything in the game was a stun weapon or otherwise ignored armor.

Also as to "why not buff antags"

Right now, by strength, it's more or less

Crew<antag<sec.

By weakning sec I hope its closer to

Crew<antag/sec

If we buffed traitors it'd instead look like

Crew<<<<<antag/sec.

This would be a problem because I dont want to make murdersprees super easy, or have the crew be utterly defenseless if security is dead or understaffed.

Security's relative power survivability vs antags would be the same whether you nerfed sec/buffed antags but I dont want to start an arms race that leaves the crew behind.

And the 40mm is explosive damage, your armor would never have stopped it.
Also "only 1-2" more hits is still a lot of survivability in a game where most things only take a couple hits to take you out, and your own weapons end people in one hit.


@falamazeer

I almost exclusively played security borg/hos/captain before I started fucking around im xenobio trying to get sepia, if security ever has a problem with "ravenous mobs" its because of OOC restrictions, not for a lack of gear.

Kor you played before gang was in the rotation and that's where these nerfs are really just pure suffering

Same with stam bullets if I'm not mistaken

Nah, I know you played sec a lot Kor, It was at ikarus.

And I think you might be under-estimating the crew as far as individual power goes, rnd has guns, Mechs, bombs.
Medbay has superpowers, godlike chems, Tranq guns
Engineering space suits, aplenty, all the tools, and access to their own stun prod equipment seperate from the ones everyone has
Cargo more consistantly than engineering even has toolbelts and insulated gloves, and can get guns themselves with a little elbow grease.

and security has ranged stuns and a department with more holes by design than swiss cheese.
Honestly, a bartender with three minutes of effort can easily match this in every important way.
Ya kno

But Security is my favourite role besides Command?

I've been playing security since the early mallcop days and I know how much things have improved for them since.

Ikarrus wrote:But Security is my favourite role besides Command?

That says very little for time spent playing the role recently.

I'll elaborate on what Falmazeer said here, because he has the right idea. Security is strong. Not overpowered, not underpowered, they have ups and downs.

The power spike of Security is at roundstart. They have better default gear than anyone on the station. But do you know what they don't have? Any utility and any progression. As the round goes on, they are not improving their equipment as that is entirely dependent on a cooperative Science department and then the Science department needs to be doing well on their own. Regarding utility? Security is ill-equipped to handle Medical/Engineering situations, even in the Brig. There isn't even a Brig medkit, just two bruise packs in perma. Security dies in the lategame. They cannot fight superpowers, large numbers of/well piloted exosuits, bombs, chemicals, or engineering sabotage.

They are good at catching criminals and disarming dangerous situations. This is what they are made for. This is how it should be. I do not think Security should spawn with a full medical suite or a ton of Engineering gear. I'd just like people to acknowledge that Security is not the overpowered godmode bogeyman they want to make it out to be.

Flashbangs IMO are the only questionable balance item in sec's arsenal but if those were nerfed/removed sec would just die

Ikarrus wrote:But Security is my favourite role besides Command?

Then go try it.

I'm tired of hearing this defense to my accusations of being out of touch with the realities of sec, everyone says this, Who do you play when you officer up?
Because there is absolutely no way a sane sensible person who plays security can have failed to realize the gestapo isn't real.
You win a lot of one v one encounters yeah, but things like a police state are well out of the grasp of security. This is why rev rounds are nightmares, gang too.
Police 'crackdowns' only last until the first officer falls and becomes the loot pinata that snowballs till the rest of the group falls to taser fire and extinguishers
Much like nuke honestly.

Honestly, Nuke is just sec without policy handcuffing their lethality, and they still aren't above 50% success at high pop right?
So at near even numbers, why do you think sec with less shots, more oversight, and less equipment is anywhere near the strength to oppose the masses of the station?

Scones wrote: Flashbangs IMO are the only questionable balance item in sec's arsenal but if those were nerfed/removed sec would just die

They used to be pretty sweet, you were guranteed to stand up first due to sec helmet blocking it to a degree, now it's based on distance, So letting it go off too close means you're still stunned when you target gets up, It's too risky, hence it's only used for big obvious groups, and the shuttle.

And by loot pinatas.

I just enjoy having my back pinned against the wall and being forced to fight tooth and nail for survival. That's why I loved playing as heads/sec in oldrev back when they had uplinks and cloakers. I find SS13 is the most fun when it resembles a disaster simulation.

I still enjoy playing security, but I feel that they've become so safe and over-militarized over the years. Stomping on antagonists this easily isn't very exhilarating.

Falamazeer wrote:-giant snip-

Flashbangs only stun sec if they go off right under them, use them as room-clearers or a method to force retreat/repositioning

I agree with pretty much the rest of this post though. Not much to say in-depth about it.

Ikarrus wrote:I just enjoy having my back pinned against the wall and being forced to fight tooth and nail for survival.

That's not the feeling it gives, at all. Moreso "holy fuck i am fragile god bless this box of flashbangs wouldn't want me to slip or anything"

It's not an intense fight for survival, it's win-or-lose and this was just a tweak to that.

"Safe and insulated"
You don't play security, And I want to call you out on it, Share your name. E: for hypocrisy sake, I'm Ham Sammich, and I stand behind my actions.

As sec, I don't interact with antag nearly as often as frothing retards, You keep acting like antag hunting is this big part of the job, but I'd say it accounts for less than 30% of the violence if only by sheer numbers, and the quietness of your average traitorling. Only big loud events even come close to shifting that number, Late game cult, wizard, mid game gang/rev, blob.

But those are special rounds with less likelyhood, the traitor/ling combo being the standard play, Most sec problems stem from the crew. And the crew is kicking the dog shit out of security as a whole as a department in terms of usable power.

I agree, most interactions are with the undesirables of the crew. I don't see how your armor affects those interactions, however. Most griefers don't kill (because they get banned) they just stun and steal.

Kor wrote:I dunno where the idea that a single officer "should" have a massive advantage over a single traitor comes from anyway. It shouldn't take a massive amount of planning to kill the rank and file or else only the best players can dare do anything overt lest they be quickly swarmed by invincible MMO town guards.

Security still has batons, flashes (automatic win if they dont have glasses), flashbangs, and a gun so they're still at an offensive advantage in a straight fight. They'll just die if they slip up now, same as anyone else.

But "rank and file" is misleading because there are usually 3 or 4 sec officers (not counting HoS) to at least twice as many antags in any given round on Sybil (excluding wizard and blob rounds obviously). There is never a situation where all of Sec isn't a tiny elite force dealing with a much larger threat. Their equipment needs to reflect that or Sec might as well just not exist.

Yes, Security (and the combat system) has bullshit features that need to be rebalanced. But going after armor values is literally the worst possible way to go about this.

"Most griefers don't kill"
No, that's true but for the wrong reason, stealing just happens to be more common.
plenty of griefers escalate and retaliate until they are justified to kill. Or bait harder so they can ahelp it as a ban is the most delicious of them all.

Armor values affect that because it's based on the flawed assumption that the ranking system is Crew>>>>>antag>>>security
When in fact it's not, Security is weak, Neutered by policy to not end fights effectively, and ganked by nerfs, while wallowing in stagnant code that ensures by the time everyone is finished collecting their awesome shit, they now outnumber and overpower security in every meaningful way.
We're hollywood sugar glass, our only purpose is to make the action hero look like a badass as he jumps through it destroying it into tiny fragments.

Though I agree with the armor nerfs to make melee more do-able, nerfing sec does not meaningfully impact traitors abilility to push the round forward.
It's biggest impact is on toolboxing shitwaggons winning more often.


you are out of touch. catch up.

plenty of griefers escalate and retaliate until they are justified to kill. Or bait harder so they can ahelp it as a ban is the most delicious of them all.

And I'm sure you know more about this than an admin that helped form server policy.

Yes. Yes I do.

I've been beating this dead horse since the server kicked on, It's a bit mossy and green after all this time, and I can neither lead it to water, nor make it drink. But I'ma keep beating it until it gets up and walks.

That server policy you helped form is a big part of the problems, and that's a bit beyond the scope for a post about armor nerfs, but suffice to say, I've had a glorious career of arguing with admins who have just as much stick up their ass, and chip on their shoulder about security and it's inner workings as the average frothing rabies infected assistant I deal with on a daily basis.

You don't magically understand security and it's woes by being an admin, nor do you gain magical empathy, To someone who cares to look for them, the parallels between your plights and mine are pretty similar, but Neither side naturally nets an understanding of the other.

Play security, and realize you aren't really equipped to handle things, Even as a posed question of balance, Security shouldn't be god titans, I'm not claiming that, Merely that you might be unpleasantly surprised at how ineffective you are, New CKEY for maximum bonus points, so you can truly understand the pain of being bwoinked and knowing exactly what it's about ahead of time based on the tone of your quarry.

lumipharon wrote:Because that's not the only projectile weapon in the game, nightingale.

Yes but the analogy still applies to almost every weapon. Armor only makes a difference for weaker weapons and even then its almost always just 1 more hit/bullet to crit.

With stamina damage it doesn't even matter since that ignores armor and getting stunned by a ballistic weapon = youre dead.

So its a two-fold problem:

1) Stamina damage kills security just as easily as it kills the clown

2) Even when stamina damage isn't an issue, armor is so weak its more useful for psychological effects than actual benefits. I'd rather my sec force go out in grey jumpsuits now since the benefit of surprise now easily outweighs the benefit of armor.

I agree with the sentiment behind this nerf, but the nerf was the wrong way to do it. I'm not even that offended by regular sec getting paper armor, but HoS is recognized as THE most stressful position on station and the player putting the station's woes on their shoulders deserves something stronger for armor. He's the final boss of the station and right now he's as easy to murder as an assistant.

The AI nerfs that everyone seems to have discussed intensely then completely forgotten about would go a long way to removing that "safe and cozy feeling" from security.

That issue can be solved, maybe, by seeing if we can add stamina defence to armour.

Oldman Robustin wrote: 1) Stamina damage kills security just as easily as it kills the clown

I do not believe that this is correct. Disabler potency is, or should be, reduced by the "energy" variable in the armor list.

For other sources, there is no defense. Perhaps there should be.

Gun Hog wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote: 1) Stamina damage kills security just as easily as it kills the clown

I do not believe that this is correct. Disabler potency is, or should be, reduced by the "energy" variable in the armor list.

For other sources, there is no defense. Perhaps there should be.

Yea and nobody shoots disablers at sec.

They shoot revolvers, bulldog slugs, stetchkins, etc.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Gun Hog wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote: 1) Stamina damage kills security just as easily as it kills the clown

I do not believe that this is correct. Disabler potency is, or should be, reduced by the "energy" variable in the armor list.

For other sources, there is no defense. Perhaps there should be.

Yea and nobody shoots disablers at sec.

They shoot revolvers, bulldog slugs, stetchkins, etc.

Yeah disablers are not a concern of sec, moreso things that will straight up kill or stun you, which is what armor is there to help against

Well, there's friendly fire by accident. Couldn't hurt, but no no needed.

I have the feeling that people implementing this nerf only looked at the raw damage resists of armour and completely forgot that most armour only covers the head and torso, hits to limbs are very frequent.

Bulletproof armour for example got rebuffed (IIRC).
A whopping 80% damage reduction (OMG OP NERF AGAIN!)

Yesterday this happened during one of the only times I even bothered to put bulletproof on.

Urist Mctraitor fires the revolver!
The bullet hits Sam Lineman in the left arm!
Urist Mctraitor fires the revolver!
The bullet hits Sam Lineman in the right leg!

crit, gg.

The same is true for the other armours covering only head and torso.

Armour OP please nerf.

I think the end result of this thread we can all agree on is that trying to balance the same game to be playable at 20-80 people, and the same sec force to be balanced against both lonesome traitors with 30 people online and uzi wielding mobs with 80 online just a complete nightmare.

Maybe sec needs scaling of some sort (not that it workrd very well with nuke ops)

Iffy on sec scaling gear, and by iffy I mean it sounds like a really bad idea as ready numbers could mean the difference between life or death, and how good your gear is.

This game is barely functional at 20 people and operates properly around 60. 80 is too many. Things should be balanced for the ideal 60-something slots we have for jobs by default.

At 20 pop, the game functions mostly by unspoken gentleman's agreement not to be a shitlord, while by 80-100 it's security's wild ride where the brig is always full, the radio never stops screaming "HALP", and it's every man for himself but also against security united in fukdapolis.

Job slots intentionally fill up on their own, job changes are handled by one guy at most and antagonists have caps to their scaling or diminishing returns.

In scorning and disregarding the potential needs of high pop we ensured it wouldn't work then we got a config option to make it not be possible so as to no longer even try.

Shit that needs to get nerfed in sec is the shit that ensures they're always coddled. Like helmet cameras and click2win flashes, AI/silicons etc.
Armor makes you robust in a fight when you've got 3 revs or a ling trying to beat you to death - the above means the combat doesn't even matter.

If you want to be MLGpr0 sec right now, don't even dress as an officer since the protection means you'll live for 1 extra second while stunned on the floor. Instead, abuse flashbangs and flashes as hard as possible.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Yes but the analogy still applies to almost every weapon. Armor only makes a difference for weaker weapons and even then its almost always just 1 more hit/bullet to crit.

Not really. It's only relevent to ballistic weapons because default sec armor has intentionally low bullet resist. But if you look at bullet proof armor (or normal armor vs melee) it means you're noticably harder to put down.

If you want to talk about toning down flashbangs, other offensive capabilities would have to be buffed to compensate

Remove the fucking taser click delay, it is by far one of the worst things about electrodes right now

Why don't we actually figure out what we want armour, security and antagonist does and how effective they are? More so we should first look at how resilient armour is for each member of security, that being a Sec Officer, Warden and the Head of Security.

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In my opinion, Security Officer armour should be sufficient to defend against lower level attacks from greytiders and other "shittlers", but otherwise should only offer mediocre protection to mid level antagonist weapons (Mid level defined as most gear Traitors get, Nuke Ops and other specilist antags get high level weapons).

The Warden should be a slight step up above Officers, maybe with higher levels of bullet and bomb protection.

The Head of Security should have very good overall defence, he should be easily able to stand up to mid level antagonist attacks.

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We need to have this discussion or else we will be condemned to argue around in circles as random people keep putting up PR's that have no direction.