/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

From what I have observed it needs to be "slimmed down"

Make it so easy a idiot can do it. One of the better things that has happened with "cult of narsie" rounds is that the book now provides everything that a cultist needs.

Work on balance as well.

It looks fine as a good stable foundation to build something great off of.

Think of it as CK 2 vanilla (without the dlc). It was a good game, but it needed a lot of re-work and now that its been reworked a million times its a even better game.

Xhuis wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I hope that "steel" wasn't talking to me since I actually like the idea of Ratvar as a game mode.

So long as its done well that is...

Nah, I was referring to the trope of "do not steal" among bad OC and pronounced it 'donut steel".

We call that in the business "no stealy wheelies."

Got to play clockcult for the first time today.

The entire mode suffers from the most godawful feature bloat I've ever seen.

I literally used a stunbaton I got more than anything my ANTAG STATUS got me because it's just point and click, not spending ten seconds holding your slab aloft and declaring the glory of clocks and hoping that the target didn't run away or something. I just stunned and cablecuffed and somehow managed to stumble backwards into the clockcult becoming a majority force on the station and eating a ERT in the process.

Look at cult, it's a lean mean machine (ha) with 12 very clearly defined runes that do what you need them to unambiguously. Also, they have a quick, easy, subtle way of stunning/muting people.

ALSO FOR THE FUCKING LOVE OF GOD GIVE DIMINISHING RETURNS ON THE MIND CONTROL THING BECAUSE IT CUCKED ME SOMETHING FIERCE AND THERE WASN'T A THING I COULD DO AND I'M VERY MAD

Clockcult is actually really easy, when you realize that stun glasses are a trap option. You must not use them. Your real stun comes from flashing and guvaxing an engineering borg, and your mute is sending this very borg to sabotage telecoms. In order to be an efficient cultist you need to be a pokemon trainer.

Just looking through the (nicely done) wiki page on Ratvar cult slowly starts to rattle my mind as I grasp how many spells and powers and sigils and things the Cultists have to do or use.

I prefer the ideology of Kiss. Keep It Simple Stupid. There's so much going on that it starts to confuse people, I think condensing the spells and whatnot down to the essentials is paramount. Bloat is a bad thing.

My biggest problem with this mode is that admins keep thinking it is awesome cool to spawn ratvar stuff and force ratvar rounds. This will die down as it becomes less shiny and new

I do like the idea of us having more supernatural stuff, but i do wish it was on the whole rarer to make it more special

Wyzack wrote:My biggest problem with this mode is that admins keep thinking it is awesome cool to spawn ratvar stuff and force ratvar rounds. This will die down as it becomes less shiny and new

I do like the idea of us having more supernatural stuff, but i do wish it was on the whole rarer to make it more special

Yeah, the GRAND FINAL BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD (sort of) AND EVIL happening every time the shuttle docks kind of cheapens it.

But this happens to literally every feature ever, so whatever.

It seems even huge DO NOT ABUSE messages for admins does precisely dick to stop the spam

You know, after playing quite a few more rounds, I start to think that maybe crag was partially right. When battle of gods happens, Ratvar seems to win WAY more often, even in the Nar'Sie rounds where Ratvar's cult wasn't even on the station. Why?

Ratvar rolls for victory before Nar-sie does.

Also clockwork reclaimers count as clock cultists, but harvesters don't count as cultists.

Perhaps the God Fight should account for converts BEFORE the god spawns and not after?

Also it seems whenever I've seen a God Fight the round ends before one of them wins.

Hell I did not even know one side could win until recently when I was told.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Got to play clockcult for the first time today.

The entire mode suffers from the most godawful feature bloat I've ever seen.

I literally used a stunbaton I got more than anything my ANTAG STATUS got me because it's just point and click, not spending ten seconds holding your slab aloft and declaring the glory of clocks and hoping that the target didn't run away or something. I just stunned and cablecuffed and somehow managed to stumble backwards into the clockcult becoming a majority force on the station and eating a ERT in the process.

Look at cult, it's a lean mean machine (ha) with 12 very clearly defined runes that do what you need them to unambiguously. Also, they have a quick, easy, subtle way of stunning/muting people.

ALSO FOR THE FUCKING LOVE OF GOD GIVE DIMINISHING RETURNS ON THE MIND CONTROL THING BECAUSE IT CUCKED ME SOMETHING FIERCE AND THERE WASN'T A THING I COULD DO AND I'M VERY MAD

I can understand your concerns, but it seems like you're in the Nar-SIan cult playstyle mindset rather than the Ratvarian cult mindset. All the scripture serves a purpose, and I see most of it used at least once every time the gamemode is run. If the first thing you did is try to stunprod -> convert someone, that's a common mistake; to begin with you should be hiding out and coordinating with your fellow servants to set up a base of operations along with stockpiling all of your components in a tinkerer's cache to allow everyone to use them.

Steelpoint wrote:Just looking through the (nicely done) wiki page on Ratvar cult slowly starts to rattle my mind as I grasp how many spells and powers and sigils and things the Cultists have to do or use.

I prefer the ideology of Kiss. Keep It Simple Stupid. There's so much going on that it starts to confuse people, I think condensing the spells and whatnot down to the essentials is paramount. Bloat is a bad thing.

There was actually a PR that recently got merged that makes scripture names more descriptive. I'll admit that I had this problem when I tried my hand at reworking the original Nar-Sian cult and when I changed it players were much happier with it. Now scriptures have their current names with their functionalities in parentheses (see here for examples). I'm a sucker for story and I'll admit that I let that get in the way of gameplay, and for that I apologize.

Wyzack wrote:My biggest problem with this mode is that admins keep thinking it is awesome cool to spawn ratvar stuff and force ratvar rounds. This will die down as it becomes less shiny and new

I do like the idea of us having more supernatural stuff, but i do wish it was on the whole rarer to make it more special

There's nothing I can do about that. It's natural tendency for people to be curious, and admins want to show off /tg/'s new feature gamemode to everyone. I'm hoping that it'll eventually stopped being forced so much, but I'm afraid I can't guarantee anything. As for supernatural stuff, our design lead would disagree with you there! I'm lucky I got this gamdmode merged at all.

InsaneHyena wrote:You know, after playing quite a few more rounds, I start to think that maybe crag was partially right. When battle of gods happens, Ratvar seems to win WAY more often, even in the Nar'Sie rounds where Ratvar's cult wasn't even on the station. Why?

Coincidence. God success chances are calculated with the same formula, and success it calculated with each hit, with the chance increasing by 1% for each successful hit. Each servant or cultist increases the god's win chance by 2% for each hit. For instance, if neither god had any worshippers, the win chances would go in this order:

Ratvar: 1% base, Nar-Sie: 1% base
Ratvar hits once, 2%
Nar-Sie hits once, 2%
Ratvar hits again, 3%
Nar-Sie hits again: 3%
Ratvar hits again, 4%

And so on until one of them wins. It's true that Ratvar is calculated before Nar-Sie, although the win chances seemed fairly balanced to me in testing.

Kor wrote:Ratvar rolls for victory before Nar-sie does.

Also clockwork reclaimers count as clock cultists, but harvesters don't count as cultists.

If harvesters don't count as cultists, then that's a problem. I specifically balanced god fights around that being a thing.

They don't count as cultists because it spammed the shit out of the end round report, and caused some confusion as to whether harvesters were supposed to eat cultists or not (they are)

Kor wrote:They don't count as cultists because it spammed the shit out of the end round report, and caused some confusion as to whether harvesters were supposed to eat cultists or not (they are)

Should be a relatively simple fix to include harvesters in godfight success chances.

Xhuis wrote:

Kor wrote:They don't count as cultists because it spammed the shit out of the end round report, and caused some confusion as to whether harvesters were supposed to eat cultists or not (they are)

Should be a relatively simple fix to include harvesters in godfight success chances.

gosh dang it xhuis i specifically mentioned this in this thread before clock cult was even merged and you even responded to my post

PKPenguin321 wrote:3. in nar'sie's case since he gibs his followers, harvesters should increase his damage, but at a much much much smaller rate than full cultists

I thought that harvesters were cultists at the time aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Holy shit nerf ocular wardens.

We tried to storm the cult base in xenobio. I was in ash drake armor and had the sword. Moment i ran in I went down to 10% health and then when they blasted again i died. You shouldnt be able to stack ocular wardens right next to eachother.

They had 7 or 8 all near the entrance.

Do these things even shoot projectiles?

Bombadil wrote:Holy shit nerf ocular wardens.

We tried to storm the cult base in xenobio. I was in ash drake armor and had the sword. Moment i ran in I went down to 10% health and then when they blasted again i died. You shouldnt be able to stack ocular wardens right next to eachother.

They had 7 or 8 all near the entrance.

Do these things even shoot projectiles?

This sounds like a classic case of "i ded plz nerf" caused by not knowing the mechanics. Ocular wardens deal a small, continuous stream of burn damage while you can see them and while you're within two tiles of them. They are very weak and die after a few hits.

Xhuis wrote:

Bombadil wrote:Holy shit nerf ocular wardens.

We tried to storm the cult base in xenobio. I was in ash drake armor and had the sword. Moment i ran in I went down to 10% health and then when they blasted again i died. You shouldnt be able to stack ocular wardens right next to eachother.

They had 7 or 8 all near the entrance.

Do these things even shoot projectiles?

This sounds like a classic case of "i ded plz nerf" caused by not knowing the mechanics. Ocular wardens deal a small, continuous stream of burn damage while you can see them and while you're within two tiles of them. They are very weak and die after a few hits.

Currently it seems overly complex for someone to fight against a clockwork cult (I didn't know that clockwork cult doors could be broken by hitting them) and there are lots of little things to remember. I have to agree with Steelpoint's argument that clockwork needs to be less complex as it will help people fighting it, as well as people playing it.

IE if people know how to fight it, they will find it more fun and if people know how to play it then it will be more fun.

Would you like me to look into the clockwork cult mechanics and recomend nerfs or buffs?

What's the counter for having so many stacked in place that you cant kill them before they kill you though?

starmute wrote:Would you like me to look into the clockwork cult mechanics and recomend nerfs or buffs?

Sure.

Kor wrote:What's the counter for having so many stacked in place that you cant kill them before they kill you though?

Wear a blindfold. They can't target you when you can't see.

Wardens would be easier to handle if there were more ways to reliably blind yourself in my opinion.

I think there's only about two blindfolds on the entire station. Excluding Nar'Sie ones.

haha guys fighting ocular wardens is easy just blind yourself and walk into the enemy stronghold

Driver Scripture

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

• Belligerent
  Works as intended.
• Judicial Visor
  Nerf. A powerful weapon like that should require more cultists to create. The fact that its a distance weapon is rough.
• Vanguard
  Remove. Its too complicated and too situational.
• Sentinel's Compromise
  Change. Very situational and unlikely to happen.
• Guvax
  Extremely nerf
  I just saw a person say "ai stand still law 2" then convert them
  Make either a borg show that it is converted or change the way they are converted. It shouldn't be that easy.
• Taunting Tirade
  Remove
  Its currently too strong as is and can disable all the security around them.
• Replicant
  Working as intended
• Tinkerer's Cache
  Fine but needs a re-work. Multiple tinkerer's caches makes the cult unstopable in the late game
• Wraith Spectacles
  Needs a re-work. How about 3 cultists to make and no eye damage
• Sigil of Transgression
  Working as intended

Script Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

• Ocular Warden
  Too cheap. You can make a turret for two components. Make it more expensive
• Sigil of Submission
  Should have to be stacked with sigil of transgression to do stuns.
  Aside from that works as intended.
• Volt Void
  Too powerful. Remove.
• Fellowship Armory
  Nerf the boots having no slip capablities
• Function Call
  Nerf. Needs to be more expensive.
• Clockwork Proselytizer
  Working as intended
• Soul Vessel
  Working as intended
• Soul Vessel
  Extremely nerf. Make them much slower or increase the cost a large amount
• Spatial Gateway
  Nerf. Disallow it going to a servant. It can easily be abused to get people in and out of jail in a jiffy.

Application Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

• Tinkerer's Daemon
  Buff a bit, maybe make the aspect 4-1
• Justicar's Gavel
  Remove. This is a nightmare in the making. Its a instant attack that can happen from far away causing brain damage which is annoying as hell
• Vitality Matrix
  Most people won't use it. I would probably throw it away
• Sigil of Accession
  Should have to stack with other sigils. Lose the stun.
• Anima Fragment
  Working as intended
• Memory Allocation
  NO just no. Remove this. Its way too over powered. Holoparasites that don't take damage. Nope.
• Sigil of Transmission
  Working as intended
• Mending Motor
  Working as intended however should heal huminoids less than servants.
• Interdiction Lens
  Very situational. Should be taken out to simplify things
• Mania Motor
  Way too overpowered. Remove this.
• Clockwork Obelisk
  Working as intended

Revenant Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

• Frankly ALL Revenant scripture needs to be scrapped. From lightning coming out of peoples arms to massive brain damage getting 10 people in a cult shouldn't cause the station to collapse. They are all really powerful and seem like a massive advantage that can't be countered.

Judgement Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

• Increase the amount of servants and DO NOT make it so AIs have to be all enslaved.
  So maybe 15 people and ais.

Also where the fuck do you even find blindfolds on most maps

And that's not to mention that they can stack 90 of them in a corner and then if you try and blind yourself to go kill them you're just gonna get shit on by the actual cultists that are there.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/18827

Wooo ocular warden nerf

Zilenan91 wrote:Also where the fuck do you even find blindfolds on most maps

And that's not to mention that they can stack 90 of them in a corner and then if you try and blind yourself to go kill them you're just gonna get shit on by the actual cultists that are there.

There's plenty of ways to include blindness outside of that. Try a screwdriver.
Still, point taken...

The counter to ocular wardens is poking your eyes out with a screwdriver

Jesus Christ

Wow, I guess most Ratvar feedback has already reached the "remove and destroy everything that makes the mode cool because I'm a boring fuck"

Nah i like the new balance for sentries

Borgs starting to twist and morph to a more clockwork form would be thematically really cool and potentially balance the power of a subverted borg somewhat. Maybe give them some buffs from the clock god to balance the lack of stealth

No. If flash nerf goes through (or did it already?), ratvar cyborgs will suddenly become a much rarer sight.

ratvar cultists should have a tonne of ways to disable a borg with ratvar spells surely?

Sidon wrote:Wow, I guess most Ratvar feedback has already reached the "remove and destroy everything that makes the mode cool because I'm a boring fuck"

over balancing mechanics?

I mean its a cool gamemode but for fucks sakes it shouldn't require more than a glance at the wiki, and be unbeatable. You don't need to give every antagonist 100 tcs just so they can have fun.

oranges wrote:ratvar cultists should have a tonne of ways to disable a borg with ratvar spells surely?

Fucking shockingly, I saw none that weren't of the extremely situational/long wind up variety, same as all the other stuns that Ratvar has, which is terrible.

Also arguing that feature bloat is good is like arguing that you'd rather have half a cow served to you rather than a choice steak.

I mean, an entire cooked half of a cow would be pretty awesome. I think you should pick a different analogy. Also i am hungry now

Anyone up for bell peppers and beef?

I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

No bell peppers.
Also no beef. Just generic cow meat.
Oh, and no shiitake.

Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein

Bombadil wrote:

Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein

[citation needed]

DemonFiren wrote:

Bombadil wrote:

Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein

[citation needed]

From what i recall someone just said they decided to add their corgi to the game

Wyzack wrote:I mean, an entire cooked half of a cow would be pretty awesome. I think you should pick a different analogy. Also i am hungry now

I now have the flintstones theme stuck in my head.

DemonFiren wrote:

Bombadil wrote:

Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein

[citation needed]

Erro has/had a dog named Ian.

ratvar cult is cool but they do everything bloodcult does but better, kind of makes the whole nar'sie vs ratvar thing dumb when ratvar is far stronger

TechnoAlchemist wrote:ratvar cult is cool but they do everything bloodcult does but better, kind of makes the whole nar'sie vs ratvar thing dumb when ratvar is far stronger

Any specific examples are greatly appreciated. I feel like blood cult is better for stunning people, spying, sabotage, and general subterfuge.

Ratvar cult generally has a harder time of summoning their god than blood cult does, due to having similar if not sometimes more extreme restrictions:

To summon Ratvar, they need 10 human or silicon servants, 3 caches, 100 constructive value, and all active AIs have to be dead or converted and only THEN can they try to summon, which needs 10 of each component, 3 other servants near the person trying to make the gateway, and then to protect the summoned, super fucking obvious constantly-announcing sound-spamming gateway for 5 minutes.

To summon Nar-Sie, they need 9 living cultists and the sacrifice target sacced, at which point they have to draw a rune for 45 seconds, which announces once, and then summon, which can either be literally instant to taking several minutes, depending on how competent the cult is.

Though this doesn't actually refute ratvar cult being stronger(they very probably are at the moment but I'd say that's, at least in part, due to bloodcult being a mess of design issues and bad choices)

>Playing HoS again
>Running around after shattering bluespace by opening a box
>Recharging gun in engi
>YOU FEEL UNWELL...
>Suddenly massive damage and hallucinations
>Can't escape and keep taking damage
>Die

Motherfucking SECOND TIME I've been /killed. This shit is not okay.

Kor wrote:Erro has/had a dog named Ian.

I wish! Corgis are amazing. The closest I have is this:



It's however true that I named the corgi Ian while completely unaware of Cowboy Bebop. But whatever, it's my word against the people's and it's the people who write history, not me.

It is currently impossible to convert a cyborg, unless he WANTS to be converted. Flashes stun them only for a few short seconds now (because buffing silicons is what coders are about now), and stun visor doesn't work on them at all.