/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:08 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Stickymayhem wrote:
Giving people a list of things to keep in check is a good thing. Even now, in it's early iteration, it's bringing people together more than before. Sure they're being mechanically forced to engage in a way they didn't need to before and that's going to be as frustrating as any change with negative impacts on things players took for granted would be, but it's hopefully going to give us a lever we can use to reward certain behaviour.

They're not though? We have had this argument for something like 5+ years about how buffing the chef and nerfing vending machines and whatever will encourage RP and it has never materialized. People just grab the food item from the counter and run.

Yeah I agree the stories and roleplay are what make SS13, but it wasn't a lack of an expanded hunger meter that killed RP, and it won't bring it back. Antags are largely immune to moodlets anyway so I don't know why you're bringing up killing sprees.

I have doubts it will even contribute much to the stories. "Blight wiped out the crops and my starving colonist lost his shit and set a fire in the middle of a raider attack" is a cool situation in Rimworld, but our rules system prohibits any sort of interesting mental breaks that could actually serve as catalysts to zany situations.

Posted: **Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:19 pm**

Buffing the chef certainly hasn't hurt RP, though. Whatever decline in RP the server has experienced is not due to the chef getting more machines or whatever. It's basically neutral as far as RP is concerned.

Posted: **Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:20 pm**

These ideas are related to RP encourage.
1. Drag someone's sprite on you and use HTML window? It's clunky.
2.Have you ever tryed to play on servers, where this feature is implemented?
3. Roundstart layout is character preferencr option, which allow to decide, which things will you have roundstart. Nothing very gamechanging. Hats, canes, lighters, other crap.
4. Sims 13 with annoying screen effects isn't too far, but flavour text is? Are you serious?
Roleplaying is about role. It's easier to RP, when you have developed char.
High/medium/low RP is about server policy. But if you want encourage TP, you should give not only need for it, but instruments to reveal a character as well.
5. I don't ask for new emotes. Just less clunky way to use old ones. Yes, it can't stop true RPer. But there aren't much of them.
6. I'm talking about better ways to encourage RP. So I suggest to add goal to unite station, instead of sims.

Posted: **Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:21 pm**

Yeah but if buffing the Chef or not is a complete wash as far as RP goes, his mechanics shouldn't be more important than the mehcanics of the other 70 players online.

Also, a completely scientific poll from about two minutes ago

Posted: **Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:51 pm**

Kor wrote:Yeah but if buffing the Chef or not is a complete wash as far as RP goes, his mechanics shouldn't be more important than the mehcanics of the other 70 players online.

Also, a completely scientific poll from about two minutes ago

Doing a poll like this after my PR was in an unbalanced state for a few days is slightly unfair, people will be salty. If I did the same for your techwebs I'd get the same. (Except I feel like techwebs is just lost hope until planetstation happens in 2022 or something)

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:08 am**

Qustinnus wrote:
Kor wrote:Yeah but if buffing the Chef or not is a complete wash as far as RP goes, his mechanics shouldn't be more important than the mehcanics of the other 70 players online.

Also, a completely scientific poll from about two minutes ago

Doing a poll like this after my PR was in an unbalanced state for a few days is slightly unfair, people will be salty. If I did the same for your techwebs I'd get the same. (Except I feel like techwebs is just lost hope until planetstation happens in 2022 or something)

He has a point there. Techwebs were unpopular with the playerbase when they were first introduced, and still are to a certain extent.

This moodlet idea works not just for roleplaying reasons either. It means that people actually have to leave their departments occasionally, and thus actually be available targets for traitors and such.

Another game called "The Ship" uses a similar system to make its hunter and hunted game play work, as it prevents you from just hiding in a closet for the entire round. So this isn't exactly an idea without merit from a game play perspective.

Right now it is in a poorly balanced and unfinished state and putting polls asking for player input on an unfinished system that is designed to make acting like a murder-hobo less appealing is not very honest.

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:50 am**

Techwebs is bad thing. But:
1. It is measure to solve very actual problem:player REEEEE about "nerf gunscience".
Also it was supposed to fix problems with distribution of science goods and ability to get endgame stuff under 15 min. But first problem wasn't fixed. Second personally I don't see as problem, because knowlege should be rewarded.
There wasn't actual problems to solve with moodlets.
2. If there is one very underdeveloped system, which makes gameplay worse, why do we need another at the same time?
I am very sceptical about idea, that even 10 new PRs will lover amount of salt. Because it either not meaningful, or more annoying.
However, amount of salt will increase, because of growing disappointment.
3. SS 13 makes you not invincible,if you just sitting in silent corner, but more vulnerable. Because you won't be aware about dangers and will face singulo/xeno/cult/holy shit at very unexpected moment.alone.

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:41 am**

I'm sorry selea but your bad opinions are nearly impossible to read

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:04 pm**

Kor wrote: I have doubts it will even contribute much to the stories. "Blight wiped out the crops and my starving colonist lost his shit and set a fire in the middle of a raider attack" is a cool situation in Rimworld, but our rules system prohibits any sort of interesting mental breaks that could actually serve as catalysts to zany situations.

I believe I suggested this early on in Moodlet design, but have mental breaks pull in a ghost who gets a antagonist status to do some objective (destroy anything nearby, fuck up that idiot [name]) and control of the person having a mental break, for a limited time. This would allow us to weave more interesting stories without creating a self-antag incentive/rules loophole.

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:14 pm**

For what it's worth I like the concept but you just can't half-ass the implementation. Right now it just seems stupid when I've witnessed some dude kill himself, I'm suffering from a virus, the station is a clusterfuck, and the moodlet system says everything is A-OK. On the other hand expanding it would lead to what Kor said

Maybe I am suffering from a lake of imagination but tweaking the values between several things tied to one meter seems like it will either result in them overwhelming you with a laundry list of tasks to keep them under control if they carry noticeable individual weight, or having them all be largely irrelevant and ignorable if you eat some snacks if you try to minimize how disruptive they are.

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:47 pm**

Kor wrote:Also, a completely scientific poll from about two minutes ago

I still don't know what moodlets are.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:26 am**

1. Janitor doesn't do his job. YOU ARE FEELING UNHINGED.
2.Lights break. ENGINEERING SHOULD DO ITS JOB. REE
3.You feel sad lately. Mental status: AHAHAHAHA.
Thoughts: Why does this exist, you go insane over the stupidest stuff.
I feel like it should be incorporated into the trait system at most. As an OCD trait, otherwise get this quick way to go insane out of my ss13.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:44 am**

Kor wrote:Since eating is the easiest and most accessible way to raise your mood, it feels like it boils down to a reskinned hunger bar except dirty floors make you hungry faster.

Different mental breaks might make it more interesting but players would likely seek them out for an excuse to act up.

Its like this new mood system only exists to give you free trait points for being so useless

oh no my screen gets all staticy and I hear voices oh gee what ever shall I do

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:47 am**

I'd like to see the bartender/chef/mime/clown become the department that primarily maintains mood and have medical be the department that treats the worst cases via medication or some sort of therapy (straitjackets.) However, make each of these jobs immune to their own boosting abilities.

The clown gets to mimic the tragedy of comedy (your jokes make everyone else laugh while you slowly slip into depression and substance abuse)
The mime suffers in silence that nobody else will ever appreciate and nobody really cares about your "art" either.
The bartender has spent so much time sipping from his own stock it just doesn't do it for him anymore.
The chef is too picky about even his own cooking to get the good feels from it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:09 am**

OPIC REVIEW: MOODLETS
Re: Moodlets
Post by cedarbridge » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:47 am

I'd like to see the bartender/chef/mime/clown become the department that primarily maintains mood and have medical be the department that treats the worst cases via medication or some sort of therapy (straitjackets.)

I'd like to point at fact, that it wasn't me, who suggested bondage as solution for mood problems.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:13 am**

Selea wrote:
OPIC REVIEW: MOODLETS
Re: Moodlets
Post by cedarbridge » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:47 am

I'd like to see the bartender/chef/mime/clown become the department that primarily maintains mood and have medical be the department that treats the worst cases via medication or some sort of therapy (straitjackets.)
I'd like to point at fact, that it wasn't me, who suggested bondage as solution for mood problems.

Just make the padded sanitarium area "soothing" to a patient suffering mood-induced derangement.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:33 am**

Qustinnus wrote: Doing a poll like this after my PR was in an unbalanced state for a few days is slightly unfair, people will be salty. If I did the same for your techwebs I'd get the same. (Except I feel like techwebs is just lost hope until planetstation happens in 2022 or something)

That is in no way a good argument against polling results, but it is an excellent argument against moodlets. Techwebs were disliked, techwebs are still disliked, and the promised cool stuff that in theory might be coded up that might make the techwebs system actually good has yet to appear and I really doubt it ever will. Are we sure moodlets wont be the same?

If you really want to argue against the validity of those poll results try to come up with an example of a change where people didn't like it at first and it was later agreed to be a good change (by the playerbase, not by a subsection of coders), because techwebs is really not the example I would have picked.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:38 am**

Lavaland

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:55 am**

EagleWiz wrote:
Qustinnus wrote: Doing a poll like this after my PR was in an unbalanced state for a few days is slightly unfair, people will be salty. If I did the same for your techwebs I'd get the same. (Except I feel like techwebs is just lost hope until planetstation happens in 2022 or something)
That is in no way a good argument against polling results, but it is an excellent argument against moodlets. Techwebs were disliked, techwebs are still disliked, and the promised cool stuff that in theory might be coded up that might make the techwebs system actually good has yet to appear and I really doubt it ever will. Are we sure moodlets wont be the same?

If you really want to argue against the validity of those poll results try to come up with an example of a change where people didn't like it at first and it was later agreed to be a good change (by the playerbase, not by a subsection of coders), because techwebs is really not the example I would have picked.

I mean, if you really want to have that argument:
A timed in game poll on one server where half the possible people didn't even vote isn't a good read of community opinion.

Also I'm pretty sure Kor was being tongue in cheek about it given the tone when posting it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:43 pm**

That was second poll. With very close results to first one,which I mentioned before.
If you think,that it isn't very accurate, we could start forum vote.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:34 pm**

On the one hand, right now dealing with moods is a bit strange. If you're feeling sad, you'd do a couple steps real quickly like shower and read a book and eat a donut, then you're fine for a bit and back to what you were doing. Which makes it feel like it's just "there". A couple of chores to do.
On the other hand, I did have some nice interactions with others coming over to medbay saying they don't feel good, describing the effects and such. Took them over to the break room for a snack and some coffee and had a nice chat.
Also gets me to act differently if I'm in a terrible mood, which can make for some funny stories.

Obviously it's in need of a lot of work, but I like the idea. Could add a lot more variety over the standard...situations I guess?

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:42 pm**

EagleWiz wrote:try to come up with an example of a change where people didn't like it at first and it was later agreed to be a good change (by the playerbase, not by a subsection of coders)

Movespeed nerf.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:14 pm**

I can not personally envision a future where this feature doesn't end up either inconsequential to the point of lacking a reason to exist or intrusive and tedious to the point of being a detriment to the overall experience

I was kind of into it at first as a reason for service jobs to influence the game more but I don't really feel like this is much of an improvement over their previous situation. Realistically I think it is "enough" for them to stay largely roleplay oriented rather than create a new dependency on them to do their job "properly" to spare people from negative moods. Transitioning a near-useless job to a highly important one often ends poorly.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:08 pm**

I have no idea how anybody is suffering from moodlets, since my little face is green 99% of the time unless I neglect myself for too long. What are you guys even doing?

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:21 pm**

Shadowflame909 wrote:1. Janitor doesn't do his job. YOU ARE FEELING UNHINGED.
2.Lights break. ENGINEERING SHOULD DO ITS JOB. REE
3.You feel sad lately. Mental status: AHAHAHAHA.
Thoughts: Why does this exist, you go insane over the stupidest stuff.
I feel like it should be incorporated into the trait system at most. As an OCD trait, otherwise get this quick way to go insane out of my ss13.

3. cant happen anymore
2. is not caused by lights breaking?

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm**

LifeReign wrote:I have no idea how anybody is suffering from moodlets, since my little face is green 99% of the time unless I neglect myself for too long. What are you guys even doing?

I am under the impression that people are vastly overstating their negative experiences

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:03 pm**

I dislike being told what my character is feeling because I know what my character is feeling better than any made-up formula. The dissonance between the two breaks immersion.

Also, I wasn't joking when I said this:

My vote is to disable them on everyone except the mime. Also triple the effect on the mime.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:30 pm**

Shaps-cloud wrote:
LifeReign wrote:I have no idea how anybody is suffering from moodlets, since my little face is green 99% of the time unless I neglect myself for too long. What are you guys even doing?
I am under the impression that people are vastly overstating their negative experiences

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:25 pm**

Shaps-cloud wrote:
LifeReign wrote:I have no idea how anybody is suffering from moodlets, since my little face is green 99% of the time unless I neglect myself for too long. What are you guys even doing?
I am under the impression that people are vastly overstating their negative experiences

absolutely this, although i will say it's kind of awkward when you gotta begrudgingly ask your coworker for a hug because youre starting to get static-y and there's no food nearby

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:56 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:absolutely this, although i will say it's kind of awkward when you gotta begrudgingly ask your coworker for a hug because youre starting to get static-y and there's no food nearby

This is what roleplay is for.

Working as intended.

Posted: **Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:11 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Shaps-cloud wrote:
LifeReign wrote:I have no idea how anybody is suffering from moodlets, since my little face is green 99% of the time unless I neglect myself for too long. What are you guys even doing?
I am under the impression that people are vastly overstating their negative experiences
absolutely this, although i will say it's kind of awkward when you gotta begrudgingly ask your coworker for a hug because youre starting to get static-y and there's no food nearby

>You start to feel depressed so you ask a colleague for emotional support

This sounds exactly like how it should work to be honest. Even if it's just clicking, it means something. You haven't totally alienated everyone around you. You probably feel like you should help them out sometime, or just hug them back when they need it.

Woah, could this be player interaction?!?!?!?!

Posted: **Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:35 am**

oh no im not saying its a bad feature but it is, like in life, kinda awkward

Posted: **Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:43 am**

I'd like it more if the static-y shit wasn't in, because I really fuckin' hate that.
I think having moods in general is decent.

Posted: **Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:05 am**

I just completely ignore it. Unlike hunger where you suddenly have a very real and serious speed decrease, ignoring mood just means that oh no your screen will be staticy and you'll hear voices.

Posted: **Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:40 pm**

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I just completely ignore it. Unlike hunger where you suddenly have a very real and serious speed decrease, ignoring mood just means that oh no your screen will be staticy and you'll hear voices.

>he doesnt know low sanity slows you

Posted: **Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:49 pm**

Shaps-cloud wrote:
LifeReign wrote:I have no idea how anybody is suffering from moodlets, since my little face is green 99% of the time unless I neglect myself for too long. What are you guys even doing?
I am under the impression that people are vastly overstating their negative experiences

This wasn't an exaggeration a week ago before this change https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/36640

It might not be an exaggeration in the future if moodlets are "expanded"

Not really fair to outright dismiss people talking about past heavy moodlet impact when discussing the potential of future heavy moodlet impact by saying the current (week old version) has no heavy moodlet impact.

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:40 am**

It'd be nicer if the save a life moodlet lasted longer, would be a good incentive to help people.

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:39 pm**

I kinda like the moodlets since it makes reading and showering actually useful and stuff. I feel like drinking at the bar should give some kind of "bubbly" moodlet too since at the moment the barman's drinks are all but useless. I barely noticed any slowdown from negative mood and it's really fricken to easy to manage so I don't see why people bitch about it. I do feel like we should get a wiki page that details all the moodlets though so people bitch a bit less.

I honestly feel like the most vocal complainers are people who want to do nothing all round but break into shit nonstop without having a reminder that they aren't robots.

Posted: **Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:15 pm**

They are mostly

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:17 am**

Had a really intense round but the climactic battle against the blob had me moving at a snail's pace with darkness and static all over my screen because the room did not look nice to my character and I was getting hungry

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:27 am**

captain sawrge wrote:Had a really intense round but the climactic battle against the blob had me moving at a snail's pace with darkness and static all over my screen because the room did not look nice to my character and I was getting hungry

How is this different from the hunger system before honestly? There are actually more ways to take care of shitty mood than there were ways to take care of hunger, you have no excuse.

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:36 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:Had a really intense round but the climactic battle against the blob had me moving at a snail's pace with darkness and static all over my screen because the room did not look nice to my character and I was getting hungry
How is this different from the hunger system before honestly? There are actually more ways to take care of shitty mood than there were ways to take care of hunger, you have no excuse.

It's annoying and intrusive. When the tone of the round has turned into pirates and ops and a blob poking holes in the station I really couldn't care less that the burger I ate didn't taste that good or that the floors need to be mopped. Having my character freak about it that kind of stuff as we try desperately to fight for our lives just takes me out of the experience.

Hunger doesn't tell me how my character is feeling. Hunger doesn't make my vision go to shit when I'm trying to fight for my life.

I don't understand what is added to the game by starting to feel depressed about bloodstains on the carpet while a blobbernaut tries to rip my brain out.

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:00 pm**

Xeroxemnas wrote: I honestly feel like the most vocal complainers are people who want to do nothing all round but break into shit nonstop without having a reminder that they aren't robots.

Except the people who break into shit nonstop/kill people nonstop are all exempted from this system. In fact they're better off under it because it means they never have to eat.

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:36 pm**

captain sawrge wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:Had a really intense round but the climactic battle against the blob had me moving at a snail's pace with darkness and static all over my screen because the room did not look nice to my character and I was getting hungry
How is this different from the hunger system before honestly? There are actually more ways to take care of shitty mood than there were ways to take care of hunger, you have no excuse.
It's annoying and intrusive. When the tone of the round has turned into pirates and ops and a blob poking holes in the station I really couldn't care less that the burger I ate didn't taste that good or that the floors need to be mopped. Having my character freak about it that kind of stuff as we try desperately to fight for our lives just takes me out of the experience.

Hunger doesn't tell me how my character is feeling. Hunger doesn't make my vision go to shit when I'm trying to fight for my life.

I don't understand what is added to the game by starting to feel depressed about bloodstains on the carpet while a blobbernaut tries to rip my brain out.

I get the feeling that moodlets are here to stay and their current form is the least intrusive we can have. It would be much more annoying, even if realistic, to have your character get distressed by the usual bad things that happen in a regular round and that are already dangerous (e.g. get sad because you were shot, because you saw someone gib etc.)

So yes, I agree that moodlets don't fit and should just be removed, but this is not going to happen any time soon and I can tolerate their current form. After all, remove the room ugliness moodlet and you would actually get a reskinned hunger bar (not counting optional trait moodlets).

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:18 pm**

Finally got a chance to play with this and holy shit

The screen effects and hallucinations are awful and don't make any fucking sense. Why would I start hallucinating because I just got over an illness and i'm pretty hungry? Why would static flash across my screen every few seconds because i slipped on some soap and drank something I didn't like the taste of? From a gameplay standpoint they are fucking irritating as all hell and from a realism perspective they make no sense, so what is the point?

We have talked about the effects being too weak vs too strong but at least if they are too weak we can pretend this awful shit doesn't exist.

I think the best solution would be to have the negative penalties be nothing more severe than the usual hunger slowdown and then instead make good mood give you buffs. I like the idea of doing normally purely fluff things like smoking a cigarette, having an alcoholic drink or eating some really nice food giving some kind of benefit but right now the system bludgeons you over the head with bizarre fucking consequences for having a few bad things happen at once and it is both immersion breaking and blood boiling-ly frustrating

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:44 pm**

On his note: There's a frustrating amount of ahelps from newer players who have no idea why their screen is static and crappy looking.

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:49 pm**

Sorry gamer you are too sad to not have annoying screen pulses get good

Posted: **Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:06 pm**

Dubbleposting to say that my proper hallucinations were likely caused by being sick and not from negative mood, but the rest of my point still stands especially in regards to the screen static

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:44 pm**

the clown should not get a negative moodlet from slipping.

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:49 pm**

Everytime I get depressed I see wraiths wtf

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:51 pm**

Wyzack wrote:Sorry gamer you are too sad to not have annoying screen pulses get good

Sorry gamer you need to spend literally 30 seconds taking a shower and grabbing a donk pocket i know this is a huge burden on you.

e: In hindsight I suddenly realize why the average /tg/ player has difficulty with the idea of hygiene and eating regularly.