/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:47 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

It's turning out better than I thought it was going to at first. It's obviously a first draft and there are a lot of issues but they're known and being addressed.

The three biggest issues IMO are:
Item prices too high for basic stuff - This has been talked about a ton, and it sounds like the Bee is going to look into helping with the code for that.
Item prices too low for some stuff - An RCD is only 25$, it should be a lot more.
Lack of stuff to buy - This ties into the second issue. I've played Sec and assistant mostly since this was merged and every round as Sec I end with like 2k$ and nothing to buy.

Good items should cost more and be more accessible. Now anyone can buy items from vending machines if they have the money. Most of those machines should be more accessible and maybe have more stock in them. If they're gated behind restricted access doors it doesn't matter as much that anyone can purchase from them if they have the money. We should update tool storage to also have some department specific vending machines. Like the Engi-Vend and the medical vendor. Couple that with cheaper basic items and much more expensive good items and you'd get a lot more use out of the economy. An RCD should cost like 500$ to a non engineer.

I've found that the player base has been pretty receptive in game so far. There's always loud people who complain a lot but a lot of the players are going with it and it does generate some level of RP if you want it to. I've found that a lot of departments will pay assistants to actually assist(who would have thought). I've made some money collecting strange objects to sell to Science for like 50$ each.

One idea I think would be good is for the HOP's console to be able to send cargo currency to someone's account. This would allow the Captain or HOP to remotely pay someone for a service done for a department, and not have the funds necessarily come from a personal account. For example, lets say someone kills a bunch of space carp and brings back their meat. The chef doesn't make much money, but they could ping the HOP and ask them to pay the person some money directly to their account in exchange for the meat. If Science gets a lot of cargo points from a bomb HOP/Cap could send money to the people in question. The remote nature of the payments also gives the opportunity for lying and fraud, and then getting SEC involved which could be amusing.

Posted: **Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:09 pm**

WarbossLincoln wrote:One idea I think would be good is for the HOP's console to be able to send cargo currency to someone's account. This would allow the Captain or HOP to remotely pay someone for a service done for a department, and not have the funds necessarily come from a personal account. For example, lets say someone kills a bunch of space carp and brings back their meat. The chef doesn't make much money, but they could ping the HOP and ask them to pay the person some money directly to their account in exchange for the meat. If Science gets a lot of cargo points from a bomb HOP/Cap could send money to the people in question. The remote nature of the payments also gives the opportunity for lying and fraud, and then getting SEC involved which could be amusing.

I think that department heads need to have budget management consoles for money transfer if department budgets are going to be used for anything. Monetary transfers can be made from the console, and a record would be kept and sent to a central finance management console in the captain's office/bridge. It would be even better if crewmen could apply for funding approval for individual projects, similar to how cargo has to approve of shipment requests.

Ideally, big projects (like renovating the library/mess hall) might require department funding, while little projects (like getting a tray of cookies and milk for the library) would be affordable under a crewman's salary. Maximize creativity while also facilitating the RP potential that money brings.

Posted: **Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:53 pm**

add some kind of one way bank machine near cargo console so you can use cash to buy

NSFW:

without having someone to open the vault

Posted: **Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:54 pm**

also cargo / wages / dep funds need some kind of balancing as they arent

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:19 am**

goof troop how the hell am I supposed to show my ID like you used to be able to when clicking it

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:35 am**

bandit wrote:goof troop how the hell am I supposed to show my ID like you used to be able to when clicking it

Means agent ids are broken, eh? I think you can show an id by right clicking, but if you get lag thats precious time in which someone could disarm you.

I have a question, how do you check your funds? For other people just examine the ID, but if you examine your own it acts as if you examined your own character for some odd reason. Am I missing something?

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:36 am**

I made an issue report on github for the ID issue.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:22 am**

Yeah vendors not being ID locked is good but for the same reason cargo crates shouldn't be locked either. If you have enough money to buy a shotgun crate why on Earth are you denied the fruit of your labor?

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm**

wesoda25 wrote:[
I have a question, how do you check your funds? For other people just examine the ID, but if you examine your own it acts as if you examined your own character for some odd reason. Am I missing something?

For whatever reason, you need to use the "examine" hotkey to check your ID - it doesn't work properly using the rightclick menu.

I want to like this, but the prices are too unbalanced and it feels just a little bit unfinished - there should be a small timer on the status menu telling you how long 'till the next payday, for one.

Also, while the whole "ID's printing money" is strange, it's better than ATM's would be for the server - Goof's right in that it'd be just a touch too slow for most people to bother.

I love the implementation of paystands - they seem easy enough to set up and use, and I've seen a deal of people using them to get payment for their services.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:55 pm**

The IDs are being changed to holochips, which will make a lot more IC sense than printing money. I'll look into a timer for next payday.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:56 pm**

God, this makes me want to learn to github again, just so I can add things like a paystand connected to a signaller.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:24 pm**

Traitors need an objective to escape with a certain amount of money. Maybe make that objective Job based so you can't roll it on a high paying job like RD or something.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:13 pm**

WarbossLincoln wrote:Traitors need an objective to escape with a certain amount of money. Maybe make that objective Job based so you can't roll it on a high paying job like RD or something.

The best way to complete that would still be to job change to miner and mine for 2 grand in dosh every 2000 points.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:29 pm**

Could make some of the items in the corporate showroom worth a lot of money.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm**

I've been enjoying paying chefs and bartenders for custom drinks.
I got a fine when being arrested, and then paid it. I then offered some construction services to the warden and got my money back.
A clown was running a shop and I bought something there.

Even if the money is 90% meaningless it's a nice option to be able to use.

Posted: **Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:59 pm**

Then make your ID print out contract you can give to someone, asking them to do X for Y money. Maybe people will play around more.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:01 pm**

I made some money as an assistant by hacking into the morgue and stealing all the money left on dead people's IDs.

When I play a doctor I usually get maintenance access and spend most of my time with a handheld crew monitor and pinpointer looking for dead or injured people. When I find them I usually take a payment out of their ID before I heal/clone them.

10/10 feature

Edit: a good idea for wardens would be to issue fines. Someone reports a minor crime like window breaking, send them a PDA message about a fine. They can come pay it or after 5 minutes you set them to arrest then double the fine or give them brig time.

Posted: **Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:11 am**

it's unrefined but really cool and adds a lot to the server - curious to see where it goes

Posted: **Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:30 am**

Make so every time you get CPR'd you instagive every single penny you have for the doctor that resurrected you.

Posted: **Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:01 am**

I still spend money only on snacks and smokes.

Posted: **Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:47 am**

Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:52 pm**

Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:47 pm**

subject217 wrote:Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.

Right now techwebs basically exists to prevent scientists from having fun with anything that ever involves RnD, and to prevent you from getting a lot of high end gear from one department.
Right now revolution basically exists to prevent heads from having fun with anything that ever involves roleplay, and to prevent you from completing a long-term project during a live round.

what's your point

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:53 pm**

His point is that right now it really only affects assistants in any practical sense. An assistant spends the entire round's worth of paychecks buying a crowbar. A sec officer starts with enough money to empty a vending machine. You're really only ever going to notice item cost if you're an assistant.

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:02 pm**

WarbossLincoln wrote:His point is that right now it really only affects assistants in any practical sense. An assistant spends the entire round's worth of paychecks buying a crowbar. A sec officer starts with enough money to empty a vending machine. You're really only ever going to notice item cost if you're an assistant.

yeah i guess it's that way if you boil it down to it's base components the system is dumb and stupid
you can do that with every system in the game
but paychecks aren't the only way to acquire money, so things don't really work that way

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:22 pm**

subject217 wrote:Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.

Maybe the assistants should get a job, find another way to earn money, or find a workaround for the vendor.

There's also very few things I would need to buy a lot of in the vendors.

WarbossLincoln wrote:His point is that right now it really only affects assistants in any practical sense. An assistant spends the entire round's worth of paychecks buying a crowbar. A sec officer starts with enough money to empty a vending machine. You're really only ever going to notice item cost if you're an assistant.

The security officer issue has been noted and I have a plan to fix it. The tldr is expensive cosmetic items and items that provide a minor advantage over your current job items while still being within the realms of Nanotrasen's technology level at roundstart. A 3 tile ranged RCD. A golden taser. That type of thing. Full idea thread here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19772

The framework PR for that idea is already up, made by goof: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/40624

This allows coders to put items in departmental vendors that members of the department will have to pay for. Obviously, the necessities to do their job will be free, but upgrades and cosmetics will cost money.

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:24 pm**

iksyp wrote:
subject217 wrote:Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.
Right now techwebs basically exists to prevent scientists from having fun with anything that ever involves RnD, and to prevent you from getting a lot of high end gear from one department.
Right now revolution basically exists to prevent heads from having fun with anything that ever involves roleplay, and to prevent you from completing a long-term project during a live round.

what's your point

this is the worst post i've seen in some time. literally comparing things that aren't similar and claiming that they are. an actual unironic strawman argument

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:00 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iksyp wrote:
subject217 wrote:Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.
Right now baiting basically exists to prevent forumposters from having fun with anything that ever involves a coherent argument, and to prevent you from getting a lot of enjoyment from one post.
Right now revolution basically exists to prevent heads from having fun with anything that ever involves roleplay, and to prevent you from completing a long-term project during a live round.

what's your point
this is the worst post i've seen in some time. literally comparing things that aren't similar and claiming that they are. an actual unironic strawman argument

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:07 pm**

you fell for the bait penguin did you not read the signature

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:22 pm**

When I give out meals for free as a Chef, I get called a communist and have my food stolen. When I ask for payment, I get called a kike and have my food stolen.

Economy.

Posted: **Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:27 pm**

Lumbermancer wrote:When I give out meals for free as a Chef, I get called a communist and have my food stolen. When I ask for payment, I get called a kike and have my food stolen.

Economy.

find a way to implement a social market economy and get called both at once

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:33 pm**

BeeSting12 wrote:
subject217 wrote:Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.
Maybe the assistants should get a job, find another way to earn money, or find a workaround for the vendor.

There's also very few things I would need to buy a lot of in the vendors.

This doesn't contradict his statement that the system currently only affects assistants. Every job except assistants can basically ignore economy outside of RP because they'll always have enough money for their needs.

"Why don't you get a job" = "play another role instead of assistant" so I still fail to see how that's a rebuttal to "the system only exists to discourage people from playing assistant"

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:03 pm**

Grazyn wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
subject217 wrote:Right now the system basically exists to prevent assistants from having fun with anything that ever involves a vendor, and to prevent you from getting a lot of one thing from a vendor.
Maybe the assistants should get a job, find another way to earn money, or find a workaround for the vendor.

There's also very few things I would need to buy a lot of in the vendors.

This doesn't contradict his statement that the system currently only affects assistants. Every job except assistants can basically ignore economy outside of RP because they'll always have enough money for their needs.

"Why don't you get a job" = "play another role instead of assistant" so I still fail to see how that's a rebuttal to "the system only exists to discourage people from playing assistant"

So?

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:06 pm**

why are we trying to balance the game around the role that has no responsibilities

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:16 pm**

Remove vendors spitting out items for free when the aggression cable is cut

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:35 pm**

iksyp wrote:why are we trying to balance the game around the role that has no responsibilities

It's funny because economy is basically balancing the game against the role that has no responsibilities

I don't really have problems with that, I steal IDs from dead/crit people, it's just odd to see people try to argue that it isn't a jab at assistants because "just get a job lol"

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:10 am**

Non-Human roles should be paid almost nothing to make the discrimination adopted and enforced by NT more tangible.

This would help breed more conflict and camaraderie and also illustrate the setting of the game better.

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:22 am**

D&B wrote:Non-Human roles should be paid almost nothing to make the discrimination adopted and enforced by NT more tangible.

This would help breed more conflict and camaraderie and also illustrate the setting of the game better.

"The Lizard pay gap isn't real!"

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:12 am**

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:31 am**

Cobby wrote:
D&B wrote:Non-Human roles should be paid almost nothing to make the discrimination adopted and enforced by NT more tangible.

This would help breed more conflict and camaraderie and also illustrate the setting of the game better.
"The Lizard pay gap isn't real!"

any excuse for people to merge the buffs lizards deserve

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:41 am**

some thoughts for when lathes/fridges are moved to economy

Department lathes should be free for their dept. only (obviously)
Autolathe: free for cargo and service jobs. Cargo because it's in cargo and Service because some maps have public autolathes and it can print a lot of civilian stuff (spare glasses for the barman, toners for the curator, materials for redecoration etc.). Don't worry, assistants aren't service they're civilian, they still have to pay.
Pipe dispenser: free for atmos techs only
Biogenerator: free for botany
Smart chem storage: free for medical jobs
Smartfridge: free for botany/chef

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:43 pm**

Grazyn wrote:some thoughts for when lathes/fridges are moved to economy

Department lathes should be free for their dept. only (obviously)
Autolathe: free for cargo and service jobs. Cargo because it's in cargo and Service because some maps have public autolathes and it can print a lot of civilian stuff (spare glasses for the barman, toners for the curator, materials for redecoration etc.). Don't worry, assistants aren't service they're civilian, they still have to pay.
Pipe dispenser: free for atmos techs only
Biogenerator: free for botany
Smart chem storage: free for medical jobs
Smartfridge: free for botany/chef

This is how you get people taking non-assistant jobs and fucking off to do the gimmicks they would have done as assistants. I dont even like greytide, but nerfing assistants more is not a good idea.

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:05 pm**

Grazyn wrote: Autolathe: free for cargo and service jobs. Cargo because it's in cargo and Service because some maps have public autolathes and it can print a lot of civilian stuff (spare glasses for the barman, toners for the curator, materials for redecoration etc.). Don't worry, assistants aren't service they're civilian, they still have to pay.

What of the free golem ship?

Grazyn wrote:Pipe dispenser: free for atmos techs only

Does anyone even use the pipe dispenser?

Grazyn wrote:Smart chem storage: free for medical jobs

"Yeah, there's a virus going around and we could save ourselves work later by supplying the cure now, but nah. Gotta screw the assistants as hard as possible, amirite?"

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:16 pm**

Free for free golems as well I guess, I can't think of everything

About the chem fridge, medical can dispense the stuff if they're worried about assistants being unable to afford the cure

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:11 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:This is how you get people taking non-assistant jobs and fucking off to do the gimmicks they would have done as assistants. I dont even like greytide, but nerfing assistants more is not a good idea.

So what you're saying is that "economy" was a a mistake?

Posted: **Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:19 pm**

Grazyn wrote:Free for free golems as well I guess, I can't think of everything

It's worth thinking about, though. Free golems don't generally wear IDs, so how do you make it free for them? A setting on the board? Then you'll just see people on the station resetting it to free.

Grazyn wrote:About the chem fridge, medical can dispense the stuff if they're worried about assistants being unable to afford the cure

It is literally the point of the chem fridge to distribute important medical items from chemistry to the crew. If you want to play medical tycoon, you ignore the chem fridge and set up a pay station.

Oh, something else I forgot to bring up, but;

Grazyn wrote:Department lathes should be free for their dept. only (obviously)

So, all these paywalls are necessitating restricting borgs from interacting with the machines, because otherwise they could just vend free stuff for humans that would otherwise have to pay. And even if borgs can't generally use these items directly, I'm already not a huge fan of removing these small niche features just to try and work in an economy that no one seems to be using anyway.

But engineer borgs have an RPED upgrade that they can use to replace parts in machines. And this requires protolathe access to be of any use.

Posted: **Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:15 am**

So basically Grazyn is saying that for economy to make sense and work, we need this, this, and this for the sake of realism and fairness. And yet these changes would make economy even less enjoyable. Putting prices on things such as chem fridge chems is an astonishingly poor idea.

Although your points are valid, because the way things stand, economy isn’t in your face enough to actually work. It really hasn’t affected me whatsoever yet, and about half my play time is assistant. I personally think trying to find the perfect economy medium is impossible, and it should be ditched because of that.

Also why do chaplains still have to pay for their shit.

Tl;dr economy is an unpolished gem but no one but beesting (and i think xdtm) have really done anything to refine it. Its getting increasingly tiring over time, and yet ironically remains easy to cheat.

Posted: **Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:19 am**

Chem fridges are going to get pricetags set by the people stuffing crap into them.

Free Golems are going to likely get the same treatment as the rest of the lathes, which will be:

Printing things you don't have the materials for will instead just charge you for the printing costs.

Posted: **Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:47 am**

Will borgs be prevented from removing items in chem fridges even if there is not price set?

Will borgs be prevented from printing machine parts from protolathes (therefor making the engineer RPED useless)?

Is the plan for lathes to pull materials from a player's inventory automatically? Can you elaborate on how this will effect the autolathe, which doesn't connect to the silo?

Posted: **Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:40 am**

wesoda25 wrote:So basically Grazyn is saying that for economy to make sense and work, we need this, this, and this for the sake of realism and fairness. And yet these changes would make economy even less enjoyable. Putting prices on things such as chem fridge chems is an astonishingly poor idea.

Although your points are valid, because the way things stand, economy isn’t in your face enough to actually work. It really hasn’t affected me whatsoever yet, and about half my play time is assistant. I personally think trying to find the perfect economy medium is impossible, and it should be ditched because of that.

Also why do chaplains still have to pay for their shit.

Tl;dr economy is an unpolished gem but no one but beesting (and i think xdtm) have really done anything to refine it. Its getting increasingly tiring over time, and yet ironically remains easy to cheat.

It's more a matter of consistency, I think that every type of vendor that has a list of items you can dispense from it should get a price tag

Posted: **Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:28 pm**

oranges wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?
because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

/tg/Station 13

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