/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

iksyp wrote:why are we trying to balance the game around the role that has no responsibilities

It's funny because economy is basically balancing the game against the role that has no responsibilities

I don't really have problems with that, I steal IDs from dead/crit people, it's just odd to see people try to argue that it isn't a jab at assistants because "just get a job lol"

Non-Human roles should be paid almost nothing to make the discrimination adopted and enforced by NT more tangible.

This would help breed more conflict and camaraderie and also illustrate the setting of the game better.

D&B wrote:Non-Human roles should be paid almost nothing to make the discrimination adopted and enforced by NT more tangible.

This would help breed more conflict and camaraderie and also illustrate the setting of the game better.

"The Lizard pay gap isn't real!"

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

Cobby wrote:

D&B wrote:Non-Human roles should be paid almost nothing to make the discrimination adopted and enforced by NT more tangible.

This would help breed more conflict and camaraderie and also illustrate the setting of the game better.

"The Lizard pay gap isn't real!"

any excuse for people to merge the buffs lizards deserve

some thoughts for when lathes/fridges are moved to economy

Department lathes should be free for their dept. only (obviously)
Autolathe: free for cargo and service jobs. Cargo because it's in cargo and Service because some maps have public autolathes and it can print a lot of civilian stuff (spare glasses for the barman, toners for the curator, materials for redecoration etc.). Don't worry, assistants aren't service they're civilian, they still have to pay.
Pipe dispenser: free for atmos techs only
Biogenerator: free for botany
Smart chem storage: free for medical jobs
Smartfridge: free for botany/chef

Grazyn wrote:some thoughts for when lathes/fridges are moved to economy

Department lathes should be free for their dept. only (obviously)
Autolathe: free for cargo and service jobs. Cargo because it's in cargo and Service because some maps have public autolathes and it can print a lot of civilian stuff (spare glasses for the barman, toners for the curator, materials for redecoration etc.). Don't worry, assistants aren't service they're civilian, they still have to pay.
Pipe dispenser: free for atmos techs only
Biogenerator: free for botany
Smart chem storage: free for medical jobs
Smartfridge: free for botany/chef

This is how you get people taking non-assistant jobs and fucking off to do the gimmicks they would have done as assistants. I dont even like greytide, but nerfing assistants more is not a good idea.

Grazyn wrote: Autolathe: free for cargo and service jobs. Cargo because it's in cargo and Service because some maps have public autolathes and it can print a lot of civilian stuff (spare glasses for the barman, toners for the curator, materials for redecoration etc.). Don't worry, assistants aren't service they're civilian, they still have to pay.

What of the free golem ship?

Grazyn wrote:Pipe dispenser: free for atmos techs only

Does anyone even use the pipe dispenser?

Grazyn wrote:Smart chem storage: free for medical jobs

"Yeah, there's a virus going around and we could save ourselves work later by supplying the cure now, but nah. Gotta screw the assistants as hard as possible, amirite?"

Free for free golems as well I guess, I can't think of everything

About the chem fridge, medical can dispense the stuff if they're worried about assistants being unable to afford the cure

Dr_bee wrote:This is how you get people taking non-assistant jobs and fucking off to do the gimmicks they would have done as assistants. I dont even like greytide, but nerfing assistants more is not a good idea.

So what you're saying is that "economy" was a a mistake?

Grazyn wrote:Free for free golems as well I guess, I can't think of everything

It's worth thinking about, though. Free golems don't generally wear IDs, so how do you make it free for them? A setting on the board? Then you'll just see people on the station resetting it to free.

Grazyn wrote:About the chem fridge, medical can dispense the stuff if they're worried about assistants being unable to afford the cure

It is literally the point of the chem fridge to distribute important medical items from chemistry to the crew. If you want to play medical tycoon, you ignore the chem fridge and set up a pay station.

Oh, something else I forgot to bring up, but;

Grazyn wrote:Department lathes should be free for their dept. only (obviously)

So, all these paywalls are necessitating restricting borgs from interacting with the machines, because otherwise they could just vend free stuff for humans that would otherwise have to pay. And even if borgs can't generally use these items directly, I'm already not a huge fan of removing these small niche features just to try and work in an economy that no one seems to be using anyway.

But engineer borgs have an RPED upgrade that they can use to replace parts in machines. And this requires protolathe access to be of any use.

So basically Grazyn is saying that for economy to make sense and work, we need this, this, and this for the sake of realism and fairness. And yet these changes would make economy even less enjoyable. Putting prices on things such as chem fridge chems is an astonishingly poor idea.

Although your points are valid, because the way things stand, economy isn’t in your face enough to actually work. It really hasn’t affected me whatsoever yet, and about half my play time is assistant. I personally think trying to find the perfect economy medium is impossible, and it should be ditched because of that.

Also why do chaplains still have to pay for their shit.

Tl;dr economy is an unpolished gem but no one but beesting (and i think xdtm) have really done anything to refine it. Its getting increasingly tiring over time, and yet ironically remains easy to cheat.

Chem fridges are going to get pricetags set by the people stuffing crap into them.

Free Golems are going to likely get the same treatment as the rest of the lathes, which will be:

Printing things you don't have the materials for will instead just charge you for the printing costs.

Will borgs be prevented from removing items in chem fridges even if there is not price set?

Will borgs be prevented from printing machine parts from protolathes (therefor making the engineer RPED useless)?

Is the plan for lathes to pull materials from a player's inventory automatically? Can you elaborate on how this will effect the autolathe, which doesn't connect to the silo?

wesoda25 wrote:So basically Grazyn is saying that for economy to make sense and work, we need this, this, and this for the sake of realism and fairness. And yet these changes would make economy even less enjoyable. Putting prices on things such as chem fridge chems is an astonishingly poor idea.

Although your points are valid, because the way things stand, economy isn’t in your face enough to actually work. It really hasn’t affected me whatsoever yet, and about half my play time is assistant. I personally think trying to find the perfect economy medium is impossible, and it should be ditched because of that.

Also why do chaplains still have to pay for their shit.

Tl;dr economy is an unpolished gem but no one but beesting (and i think xdtm) have really done anything to refine it. Its getting increasingly tiring over time, and yet ironically remains easy to cheat.

It's more a matter of consistency, I think that every type of vendor that has a list of items you can dispense from it should get a price tag

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

Zarniwoop wrote:

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

If no one was asking for it then who paid goof?

zxaber wrote:Will borgs be prevented from removing items in chem fridges even if there is not price set?

Will borgs be prevented from printing machine parts from protolathes (therefor making the engineer RPED useless)?

Is the plan for lathes to pull materials from a player's inventory automatically? Can you elaborate on how this will effect the autolathe, which doesn't connect to the silo?

You probably just put the mats in the lathe the normal way

If lathes are going to be made to cost money if materials aren't available, shouldn't roundstart materials be made a lot more scarce? As it stands, pretty much every map has a bountiful supply of metal and glass, so it might as well not exist.

somerandomguy wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

If no one was asking for it then who paid goof?

Oh sorry, one person with money asked for it. My bad.

The public facing chem fridge should default to being free and then it should have functionality added to optionally charge for things on an item by item basis. If you had a button next to each item in a chem fridge that required chemistry access that allowed you to set a price for an item then you could distribute your virus cures free and whip up some super healing chems or bottles of lube and put prices on them.

Make job equipment vendors work off of access, the current system is wonky. IE, setting yourself to Captain, then renaming the ID back to your original job results in you being charged, where else keeping the original job/switching back to it and giving yourself every access individually doesn't charge you.

This is an outside case but the ID console should be able to assign a new account to an ID card. I got to the station as a lavaland survivor and got myself an ID but had no way to get an account. I had to steal an ID from the morgue and use that for an account.

Zarniwoop wrote:

somerandomguy wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

If no one was asking for it then who paid goof?

Oh sorry, one person with money asked for it. My bad.

you're the one acting like a douchebag

the game is changed by the people who change it, not by the ones who play it. If you don't like that, learn to fucking code and contribute yourself, otherwise you're only ever going to be a bit player in the changes of the game and your bitching about changes other people have made will be ignored.

This has always been the case.

inb4 implying soft power

the "le paid code" meme is getting dumb. Goof is getting like maybe 1$ an hour to code this up, probably less.

And are we commies now? Why shouldn't people get paid? If MSO wanted to hire me for 60-70k a year plus benefits and 20 days PTO a year, I'd code full time for /tg/. He won't, so I don't. Goof is doing it for like 40$. He could give out handjobs and make 40$ for like 1/100th the effort.

Edit: Goof would probably get more appreciation for selling handjobs than he does for coding for free.

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:

somerandomguy wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

If no one was asking for it then who paid goof?

Oh sorry, one person with money asked for it. My bad.

you're the one acting like a douchebag

the game is changed by the people who change it, not by the ones who play it. If you don't like that, learn to fucking code and contribute yourself, otherwise you're only ever going to be a bit player in the changes of the game and your bitching about changes other people have made will be ignored.

This has always been the case.

It’s a feedback thread, dunno why you’re even reading it if this is your attitude, other than to unleash your salt on the players you apparently loathe so much. Nobody was asking for it, it’s not really adding anything, I’ve found nobody that’s wanted to RP with it. It’s half baked goof code, just remove it like we did chaplain’s monk CQC and Freon.

Zarniwoop wrote:

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:

somerandomguy wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:

oranges wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Why do we always merge half-baked goof code?

because unlike you, he goes to the effort of actually writing it

This is a douchebag response and that's a dumbass reason to implement (and pay for!) something that clearly had minimal effort put into it (and that nobody was asking for in the first place).

If no one was asking for it then who paid goof?

Oh sorry, one person with money asked for it. My bad.

you're the one acting like a douchebag

the game is changed by the people who change it, not by the ones who play it. If you don't like that, learn to fucking code and contribute yourself, otherwise you're only ever going to be a bit player in the changes of the game and your bitching about changes other people have made will be ignored.

This has always been the case.

It’s a feedback thread, dunno why you’re even reading it if this is your attitude, other than to unleash your salt on the players you apparently loathe so much. Nobody was asking for it, it’s not really adding anything, I’ve found nobody that’s wanted to RP with it. It’s half baked goof code, just remove it like we did chaplain’s monk CQC and Freon.

a feedback thread is for feedback. all you did was yell "goof goof goof". learn how to code if you think this was so minimal effort. making shit like this takes a lot of time

I gave other feedback in the thread, yall just didn't get salty until I accurately pointed out goof's history of implementing poorly thought-out features that nobody asked for or wanted. I didn't say anything about minimal effort and even so, putting effort into something doesn't inherently make it good.

Zarniwoop wrote:I gave other feedback in the thread, yall just didn't get salty until I accurately pointed out goof's history of implementing poorly thought-out features that nobody asked for or wanted. I didn't say anything about minimal effort and even so, putting effort into something doesn't inherently make it good.

My mistake. Point still stands.

Zarniwoop wrote:My mistake. Point still stands.

no it doesnt. non-coders calling big features they dont like low effort are usually to stupid to realize how much work said feature needs. I realize high effort == good feature. but saying its minimal effort when you dont know how much work something takes makes me laugh at you every time you talk.

Qustinnus wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:My mistake. Point still stands.

no it doesnt. non-coders calling big features they dont like low effort are usually to stupid to realize how much work said feature needs. I realize high effort == good feature. but saying its minimal effort when you dont know how much work something takes makes me laugh at you every time you talk.

lmao dumbass its too not to, good luck sharing ur opinion ever again.

wesoda25 wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:My mistake. Point still stands.

no it doesnt. non-coders calling big features they dont like low effort are usually to stupid to realize how much work said feature needs. I realize high effort == good feature. but saying its minimal effort when you dont know how much work something takes makes me laugh at you every time you talk.

lmao dumbass its too not to, good luck sharing ur opinion ever again.

ouch you win gamer i take my retreat

Qustinnus wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:My mistake. Point still stands.

no it doesnt. non-coders calling big features they dont like low effort are usually to stupid to realize how much work said feature needs. I realize high effort == good feature. but saying its minimal effort when you dont know how much work something takes makes me laugh at you every time you talk.

The amount of work isn't the question here, its the quality and the quality is poor. My point still stands as evidenced by how you can't even come up with an actual retort to any points I've made about why the feature is bad. You just reiterate the same point I already debunked (effort doesn't make something inherently good). You're nitpicking semantics because you don't have a leg to stand on in regards to actual content. You can barely string a sentence together but argue we shouldn't listen to anyone too stupid to [x] so why listen to your bunk argument? The feature is poorly thought out, poorly implemented, incomplete and functionally almost entirely meaningless and useless. Maybe there was lots of click clacking involved but I call it low effort if such little thought goes into it that this is what the result is.

You literally don't even address the point yet claim it is false because I used a word you don't like in an unrelated point. You really have no room to be calling others stupid and the fact you have to rest your case on calling your opponent stupid proves you have no legitimate point. Just ad hominems.

Zarniwoop wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:My mistake. Point still stands.

no it doesnt. non-coders calling big features they dont like low effort are usually to stupid to realize how much work said feature needs. I realize high effort == good feature. but saying its minimal effort when you dont know how much work something takes makes me laugh at you every time you talk.

The amount of work isn't the question here, its the quality and the quality is poor. My point still stands as evidenced by how you can't even come up with an actual retort to any points I've made about why the feature is bad. You just reiterate the same point I already debunked (effort doesn't make something inherently good). You're nitpicking semantics because you don't have a leg to stand on in regards to actual content. You can barely string a sentence together but argue we shouldn't listen to anyone too stupid to [x] so why listen to your bunk argument? The feature is poorly thought out, poorly implemented, incomplete and functionally almost entirely meaningless and useless. Maybe there was lots of click clacking involved but I call it low effort if such little thought goes into it that this is what the result is.

You literally don't even address the point yet claim it is false because I used a word you don't like in an unrelated point. You really have no room to be calling others stupid and the fact you have to rest your case on calling your opponent stupid proves you have no legitimate point. Just ad hominems.

i dont care about goofconomy and if it was removed i wouldnt care. I just think some of your arguments such as "its goof" and "he /obviously/ put no effort into it" are shit and the second one just shows how unknowledged you are on the subject and basically just make me want to call you a dick.

So you don't care about any of the actual feedback and are just salty because I besmirched goof's good name. Are you done yet?

i dont think ive posted ITT yet and nobody will care but i personally do not like the economy system for some of the many reasons im sure have been given in detail throughout the thread

Zarniwoop wrote:So you don't care about any of the actual feedback and are just salty because I besmirched goof's good name. Are you done yet?

no i dont care if you roast goof. Just stop posting as if you have any knowledge about coding.

Anyway as I was saying before this sperglord got triggered by semantics and tried to veer this off topic...

Nobody was asking for it, it’s not really adding anything, its taking away more than its adding, I’ve found nobody that’s wanted to RP with it. It wasn't even finished when it was merged and is still missing pieces. It’s half baked goof code, just remove it like we did chaplain’s monk CQC and Freon.

Zarniwoop wrote:Anyway as I was saying before this sperglord got triggered by semantics and tried to veer this off topic...

Nobody was asking for it, it’s not really adding anything, its taking away more than its adding, I’ve found nobody that’s wanted to RP with it. It wasn't even finished when it was merged and is still missing pieces. It’s half baked goof code, just remove it like we did chaplain’s monk CQC and Freon.

>nobody asked for it
Last I checked, money still doesn't appear out of nothing.
It's also not at all half-baked, it's just missing something to make people care about it.

somerandomguy wrote:it's just missing something to make people care about it.

The economy?

Is there any documentation on the wiki regarding the economy changes made?

Its hard to provide productive feedback without a solid grasp of the changes made.

One point I find annoying is when playing a position that doesnt have funds or low funds.

How do I get money? Can I deposit cash I find somewhere? Is the intent for your account to travel between rounds?

I think the idea is to trade and barter, do work for other people and get paid. But the question I've been asking time and time again is: what do you need the money for?

Lumbermancer wrote:I think the idea is to trade and barter, do work for other people and get paid. But the question I've been asking time and time again is: what do you need the money for?

Cool I would be down for that but its not seeing widespread use in part because I only know about anything regarding this from reading the adhoc feedback thread post.

Even then I'm unclear about several aspects of the system.

outside of github is there any documentation?

How do you make department budget ID cards? Or are they stored somewhere?

Head of a department gets one.

somerandomguy wrote:

Zarniwoop wrote:Anyway as I was saying before this sperglord got triggered by semantics and tried to veer this off topic...

Nobody was asking for it, it’s not really adding anything, its taking away more than its adding, I’ve found nobody that’s wanted to RP with it. It wasn't even finished when it was merged and is still missing pieces. It’s half baked goof code, just remove it like we did chaplain’s monk CQC and Freon.

>nobody asked for it
Last I checked, money still doesn't appear out of nothing.

What does that mean?

And if it’s missing components that make people care about it, it’s fundamentally unfinished aka half-baked.

There should be a vote.

Someone literally paid goof to make economy so saying "nobody asked for it" is dumb

How much was the bounty. I'll pay twice as much to have economy removed.

I already addressed the point, one person paying for it doesn't translate to the community asking for it.

Zarniwoop wrote:I already addressed the point, one person paying for it doesn't translate to the community asking for it.

thing is noone asked for most of the features in ss13 and yet they're in. literaly noone asked for a car that sucks up people that can turn into a cannon and shoot the people inside but its in anyways. like whats your point? us coders dont work for you, we create what we think is fun often trying to create something fun for the players.