/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Unconsidered side effect is what this does to silver xenobio slime cores. I produced a bunch on hopes of rolling gatfruit or something. Didn't see the tiny bluespace tomato. Slipped on it. Spilled plasma, exploded lab.

Never again.

That's fucking incredible.

This is SS13 incarnate.

I'm going to pretend that I'm one of the three people who power game, and I agree that it has a high skill ceiling that doesn't need to be messed with.

Botany does have overwhelmingly overpowered traits like hypodermic needles and flur acid that I can melt hardsuits with, but destroying the round start capability of the dna machine was uncalled for when I found out.
What especially irks me is the default min for production speed. It's shot and was the pride of botany ever since it came out.

I'm happy with the new yield, but I think regents in the plants like death nettle 50% acids and toxins in mushrooms or death berries are the real problem.
All you people did was make it take longer for me to grow shit and you're causing my end game inventory (Gaia branches, blumpkins with mutagen, also death nettles are ez mode) to just start being planted as soon as the average shuttle arrival time hits.

Botany is still as powerful as it ever was, this patch was a missed and I'm sorry, but idiot decision because I'm strongly assuming that not a lot of people in coderbus understand the meta in botany while also thinking at the same time anything is really different.
I'd like to be in some form of quality control feedback before anyone starts accepting prs for it considering people like oranges don't even play anymore, or however that meme went.
I know that sounds super egotistical but, I just really enjoy botany.

I think that's all I got to whine about. I also realize I can grow mutagen, but imagine growing a blumpkin-

and glowshroom, plants with the highest maturation speed, mixed with a ridiculous production speed, shuttles already fucking gone my dudes.

My point being the reagents are the core of botany, if you're going to nerf anything at all, take away certain traints like Skelton mutation toxin in strange seeds, omnizime from dues branches, for Christ sakes, I can make a full beaker out of a watermelon with 50% fluro, sulfuric acids.

I have to bold this by stressing chemists are not always present, or are in shitpost mode and tell me that they'll get what I need and never see it or I straight up get told to fuck off

I apologize but one of you need to get a grip with all this meme salt stuff, it's ignorant.
also I refuse to accept the votes of people who don't even play more than thirty minutes a day.

That's all this time.

Remie Richards wrote:

danno wrote:the poll is a testament to just how silly forum-goers arebotany is a pile of cancerit's clearly way out of control and needs to be peeled back

I bet you sheep still think Hillary can be president with attitudes like that
especially disturbing watching administration admitting bias, but we were never a democracy in the first place were we

A3STH3T1CS wrote:I bet you sheep still think Hillary can be president with attitudes like that

please stop doing this thanks

qhop wrote:I got exposed stop embarrassing me

talk shit get hit

It's offtopic, not even funny ironically, and poor bait

Qbopper wrote: please stop doing this thanks

Qbopper wrote:It's offtopic, not even funny ironically, and poor bait

Don't pull that forum moderator shit with me fat boy. I'm defending myself and the results of the votes.
It's not my fault you're so dis-associative you can't notice a perfectly good analogy after calling voters in a rather opinionated thread cancerous.

I'm also not going to take any shit from people who allegedly hate a co-adminstrator then suddenly agree with him out of nowhere because he fits your narrative.
You talk to me, you talk to me like a fucking man.

A3STH3T1CS wrote:

Qbopper wrote:It's offtopic, not even funny ironically, and poor bait

Don't pull that forum moderator shit with me fat boy. I'm defending myself and the results of the votes.
It's not my fault you're so dis-associative you can't notice a perfectly good analogy after calling voters in a rather opinionated thread cancerous.

I'm also not going to take any shit from people who allegedly hate a co-adminstrator then suddenly agree with him out of nowhere because he fits your narrative.
You talk to me, you talk to me like a fucking man.

What the fuck am I reading?

Haevacht wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:

Armhulen wrote:Did we NEED to revive this

for the shitty pun? yes.

I dunno, I think the quality ofdanno's puns has been slipping lately.

Actually it was my pun, he said "reeled" and I edited the quote to say "peeled", cos you know, botany.



Also A3STH3T1CS calm the fuck down jesus, Yes I think botany needs to be nerfed, but no I don't think its cancerous, I made a fucking pun thats all.
god is everyone's reading comprehension going the way of Fwoosh?

*fart*
Plants are gay

Remie Richards wrote:

Haevacht wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:

Armhulen wrote:Did we NEED to revive this

for the shitty pun? yes.

I dunno, I think the quality ofdanno's puns has been slipping lately.

Actually it was my pun, he said "reeled" and I edited the quote to say "peeled", cos you know, botany.

My bad I've grown accustomed to danno being the sower of bad puns.

cedarbridge wrote:

A3STH3T1CS wrote:

Qbopper wrote:It's offtopic, not even funny ironically, and poor bait

Don't pull that forum moderator shit with me fat boy. I'm defending myself and the results of the votes.
It's not my fault you're so dis-associative you can't notice a perfectly good analogy after calling voters in a rather opinionated thread cancerous.

I'm also not going to take any shit from people who allegedly hate a co-adminstrator then suddenly agree with him out of nowhere because he fits your narrative.
You talk to me, you talk to me like a fucking man.

What the fuck am I reading?

Not only do I have no fucking clue what you're saying here, you're still going offtopic - if you have a problem with me, take it somewhere else

On topic

What was the general reaction to that recent botany nerf? I've been away for a few days so I haven't gotten to see the reactions people had

Qbopper wrote:What was the general reaction to that recent botany nerf? I've been away for a few days so I haven't gotten to see the reactions people had

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=10266

witness

Kel wrote:

Qbopper wrote:What was the general reaction to that recent botany nerf? I've been away for a few days so I haven't gotten to see the reactions people had

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=10266

witness

Oh, it looks like I can't read again, thanks

Qbopper wrote:

Kel wrote:

Qbopper wrote:What was the general reaction to that recent botany nerf? I've been away for a few days so I haven't gotten to see the reactions people had

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=10266

witness

Oh, it looks like I can't read again, thanks

It's a mesh of "This nerf is useless" and "This effectively takes away botany's impact of the round", sometimes simultaneously.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:

Qbopper wrote:

Kel wrote:

Qbopper wrote:What was the general reaction to that recent botany nerf? I've been away for a few days so I haven't gotten to see the reactions people had

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=10266

witness

Oh, it looks like I can't read again, thanks

It's a mesh of "This nerf is useless" and "This effectively takes away botany's impact of the round", sometimes simultaneously.

It is both at the same time because you nerfed the wrong thing, you made botany overall less effective while making the stupidly broken plant combos still possible. so effectively it is harder for botanists to make helpful plants and such while still leaving the griff potential high. The only thing that really changed was banana spamming is slightly harder.

I don't think anyone in that thread understands that "overall less effective but still being able to cause griff/be a triage if u gud/lucky/have a lot of mutagen" was the entire purpose of the nerf. I think I've mentioned this several times now.

This also hurts bad plants. Plants aren't compartmentalized in "good" or "bad" since the gene machine has existed, to hit one means you have to hit another if you're balancing around the device that makes no distinction between the two. The only exception I can think of is Maybe kudzu. "But you can do X with <bad plant>!" - why can you not do this with the good plants too? This argument just doesn't make any sense, so if you could please explain this to me I'd greatly appreciate it.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I don't think anyone in that thread understands that "overall less effective but still being able to cause griff/be a triage if u gud/lucky/have a lot of mutagen" was the entire purpose of the nerf. I think I've mentioned this several times now.

This also hurts bad plants. Plants aren't compartmentalized in "good" or "bad" since the gene machine has existed, to hit one means you have to hit another if you're balancing around the device that makes no distinction between the two. The only exception I can think of is Maybe kudzu. "But you can do X with <bad plant>!" - why can you not do this with the good plants too? This argument just doesn't make any sense, so if you could please explain this to me I'd greatly appreciate it.

It kind of DOES make a distinction between the two though, the chemical content of the plants are controlled by the machine as well, and certain chemicals are typically used for griff more than others, while there are no good and bad plants, there are good and bad chemicals.

while I dont disagree with the nerf I feel you could have been much less harsh and nerfed problem chemicals instead of botanical production overall. For example potassium typically isnt used for much besides blowing holes in the station.

Plus I feel that botany could have been time gated nerfed in ways that make it have more depth while still feeling powerful, such as plant genetic stability to make the choice of traits matter or a biomatter currency system to time gate genetic changes to a seed. The nerf as it is, feels heavy handed, and removes one of the cooler things about the department as opposed to other proposed options back when nerfing botany was first discussed. Granted the other options require more effort than tweaking numbers.

I think i have a solution to the botany problem in this thread i made for a planetstation hydroponics, to do a bit of theorycrafting

- Removing the access to the wide range of stock, all the plants are availible out of a vendor in the station, more natural varieties exist in the wild

- Domesticating said wild varieties into earth staple foods & advanced mutated foods with mutagen in order to prolong (so basically your vendor is growing outside if you take the time to select & mutate the terrible/poisonous native ones)

- Gene machine absent and RND will be required to build, not sure on the state

That is without changing any of the fundamental systems and just re-assembling the order in which plants are prioritized, without vulgaris to grow into gaia as a first crop botanists are liable for maintenance of their trays, and pumpkins a teeny bit rare since the natural plant (some bulging watery jungle root full of poison) could split into watermelons/pumpkins/potatoes etc. and be random mutationally like that.

Qbopper wrote:

A3STH3T1CS wrote:I bet you sheep still think Hillary can be president with attitudes like that

please stop doing this thanks

#hestandswithher

Every time I see botany it's just worse and worse
even with the nerf, it's just not enough.
botany is cancer
it practically only exists now to cause problems in the community. all I see botanists do is be huge pricks to everyone on the station, whether antag or not. this sucks. this sucks hard.

danno wrote:Every time I see botany it's just worse and worse
even with the nerf, it's just not enough.
botany is cancer
it practically only exists now to cause problems in the community. all I see botanists do is be huge pricks to everyone on the station, whether antag or not. this sucks. this sucks hard.

The nerf fucked over pro-social botany harder than it fucked over botany griff. it takes significantly longer to make decent heal-alls or chem production but not griffplants, you only ever need one or two high potency explosive plants or deathnettles. Plus the crew's attitude when it comes to all botanists doesnt make a distinction between helpful and harmful botanists.

overall this is a combination of a balance problem, a player attitude problem, and a policy problem.

Botany wasnt originally balanced around the DNA manip so many of the things that were powerful but required effort to make, no longer require effort to make.

Players see the sudden power shift in a formerly less powerful department and begin to dislike the change in dynamic as it changes how they must play the game.

Admins are loathe to take action against botany grief, even when it can be as destructive if not more so than a toxins scientist leaving his bombs out or a chemist making hellfoam grenades available to the public. When you fill entire hallways with teleporting banana peels or explosive watermelon as a non-antag you need to get a stern talking to.

danno wrote:Every time I see botany it's just worse and worse
even with the nerf, it's just not enough.
botany is cancer
it practically only exists now to cause problems in the community. all I see botanists do is be huge pricks to everyone on the station, whether antag or not. this sucks. this sucks hard.

Plants are effectively being used as tools by implementing the greif tools of R&D with chemistry, i mean a good botanist can be self sufficient but it now carries the same problem as R&D. If you split it up into 'Nations' botany could go solo after 15 mins of intensive botany work and getting some mutagen blumpkins.

This is why i think my suggestion on the new hydroponics on planetstation is good, because the concept is that you're given a small range of plants, but you have to work to fill in the blanks yourself (its a bit like xenobio where it needs to get more depth otherwise you are just gating plants behind a accessibility/time barrier) but would work because you're not given the obvious. And the rest of the plant seeds providing you dont seed some of the food produce are found elsewhere in ruins or the wild.

- Remove Gaia, this is my biggest theorycrafting complaint as R&D can upgrade the trays so you can load in loads of water & chems and just leave it rather than pop down a Gaia leaf and walk away. Either that or make gaia expire after a certain amount of time and reset the tray to full water & nutrients.

- Revise the plant mobs (plantpeople/killer tomatoes/pine trees that spawn from life reagent/kudzu/spiderling spam) as being rarer, perhaps moving them away from botany because plant traits mean that these archaic (before plant traits were even a thing) grief tools just became one of a arsenal.

spamming spiderlings/purple spiders is greif and has no reason to do it since you can't 'ranch spiders for meat/other' , pine trees are a shitty strong force charge at your face mob, We already know podpeople abuse killer tomatoes plant factions to use them as simplemob attack dogs, without more depth kudzu is a grieftool and a simple mob antagonist

- Remove the pod people (and pod plant), people see this as a direct upgrade within botany and its not rare

Infinite free revives that actually turn you into something better than a base human! So simple a monkeyed partner botanist can do it.

- Without cargo, food on planetstation would be reliant on killing monsters/animals or hydro so there is upped responsibility, on the station food isn't rare at all, and plants are a optimal alternative but not a nessecary one when you can order pizza from cargo, self cannibalise each other & eat monkey steaks forever.

- Without hydro or a very active team of hunting crew, we could bring back health affecting starvation & kill off people via malnutrition, creating a drive for botany to make plants in order to give to the kitchen or crew in bulk. Nobody eats junk food anyway, and i wouldnt think the planetstation has junk food vendors.

I agree with Fwoosh, removing all of Botany's plants and making it take hours to get anything done would certainly reduce the Botany grief.