/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:22 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

ShadowDimentio wrote:How will removing it not just shift the meta (>implying the ebow even is the meta) down a rung and force us to have this same argument about that item in a month?

This is what I really wanted answered because nerfing/removing the ebow/esword/whatever won't accomplish anything except make mindless murderbone fall to the next most effective option.

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:29 pm**

*In another thread we hash over how traitor objectives are worthless in the face of murderbone, and we are told that making a change would literally be magic*

Well then i guess we'll just have to get our Hocus Pocus hats on then. Obviously the issue is that the tools aren't being used to actively complete the objectives, so i say "Fuck Em" remove all of the offensive tools and/or the uplink if they aren't going to service to play the game during the round-type. Its almost we aren't punishing them hard enough for AIMING to fail a round on purpose just to abuse the tools for mass murder.

Ebow is a good place to start.

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:32 pm**

What's the issue with changing/removing things that lead to shit gameplay in an attempt to make things more fun

If the ebow gets removed and people switch to [shitty boring dumb thing] then we can examine [shitty boring dumb thing] as well, I don't see your point

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:47 pm**

it's a video game
it is only so complicated
there are options here, it's not impossible to change

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:00 pm**

Qbopper wrote:What's the issue with changing/removing things that lead to shit gameplay in an attempt to make things more fun

If the ebow gets removed and people switch to [shitty boring dumb thing] then we can examine [shitty boring dumb thing] as well, I don't see your point

You are not using the gun/ebow/esword to get from point A to B, and honestly if its gratuitous & unbalanced surely traitors can just use a combination of the tools around them instead to deliberately pervert the objective of the round with specially overpowered/strong objects supplied. Traitor mode is a sandbox in which you're given a starting sum to spend on whatever, and objectives are entirely optional since there is nothing but red-text and a bruise on your ego for not fufilling ANY of your objectives but murderboning the entire crew.

- On other round types you either lose or get bwoinked into non existance, changeling & traitor are tolerated as freeform with no real structure.

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:05 pm**

Stunguns of any variety are pretty boring and unfun no matter what they're being used for and I support a shift away from them.

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:33 pm**

Qbopper wrote:What's the issue with changing/removing things that lead to shit gameplay in an attempt to make things more fun

If the ebow gets removed and people switch to [shitty boring dumb thing] then we can examine [shitty boring dumb thing] as well, I don't see your point

You don't seem to understand that murderboning is the white noise of traitor. It's what plays when the traitors have nothing better to do or no gimmicks to run, so they have fun at the expense of the crew. You have a problem with this, which is totally, 100% fair, but your approach to fixing it will do absolutely nothing. All removing eswords, ebows, bombs. whatever will accomplish is change the item the traitor is holding as he slaughters the whole crew.

Incentivize creative traitoring, run more events involving traitors, be the change you want to see. But, no matter what you do, realize that you're only going to reduce the amount of murderboning, and that it will always exist in some form.

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:36 pm**

ok but if the traitor has to hold something that he has to actually put effort in to use properly to murder the crew that's what we call an improvement you dullard

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:38 pm**

ShadowDimentio, like 10 posts ago Danno you mongoloid wrote: Also you chucklefucks keep saying "they should have to work for it", but you're an out-of-touch fool if you think that traitor gear is so powerful that you can lean on it indefinitely and not get fucked FAST. Every piece of traitor gear is specialized for surprise attack, in extended battles and direct combat their usefulness drops off almost immediately.

Danno have you ever actually used traitor gear or have you only ever watched people who knew what they were doing and used them to their maximum

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:29 am**

>is utterly alone in his delusion
>wow dude do you even know what your talking about lol?

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:14 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:
ShadowDimentio, like 10 posts ago Danno you mongoloid wrote: Also you chucklefucks keep saying "they should have to work for it", but you're an out-of-touch fool if you think that traitor gear is so powerful that you can lean on it indefinitely and not get fucked FAST. Every piece of traitor gear is specialized for surprise attack, in extended battles and direct combat their usefulness drops off almost immediately.
Danno have you ever actually used traitor gear or have you only ever watched people who knew what they were doing and used them to their maximum

You were the one claiming that a stun gun capable of keeping 3 people stunlocked at once somehow has a huge hole that can be defeated by running forward with a stun prod.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:31 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
ShadowDimentio, like 10 posts ago Danno you mongoloid wrote: Also you chucklefucks keep saying "they should have to work for it", but you're an out-of-touch fool if you think that traitor gear is so powerful that you can lean on it indefinitely and not get fucked FAST. Every piece of traitor gear is specialized for surprise attack, in extended battles and direct combat their usefulness drops off almost immediately.
Danno have you ever actually used traitor gear or have you only ever watched people who knew what they were doing and used them to their maximum
You were the one claiming that a stun gun capable of keeping 3 people stunlocked at once somehow has a huge hole that can be defeated by running forward with a stun prod.

Reminds me of when someone was claiming all you had to do to counter people with dual eswords was use disarm intent. Funny because up close they have a way better chance of disarming you in a more literal way.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:42 am**

Jacough wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
ShadowDimentio, like 10 posts ago Danno you mongoloid wrote: Also you chucklefucks keep saying "they should have to work for it", but you're an out-of-touch fool if you think that traitor gear is so powerful that you can lean on it indefinitely and not get fucked FAST. Every piece of traitor gear is specialized for surprise attack, in extended battles and direct combat their usefulness drops off almost immediately.
Danno have you ever actually used traitor gear or have you only ever watched people who knew what they were doing and used them to their maximum
You were the one claiming that a stun gun capable of keeping 3 people stunlocked at once somehow has a huge hole that can be defeated by running forward with a stun prod.
Reminds me of when someone was claiming all you had to do to counter people with dual eswords was use disarm intent. Funny because up close they have a way better chance of disarming you in a more literal way.

That's usually lumbermancer's cue to talk about throwing floor tiles.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:09 am**

danno wrote:ok but if the traitor has to hold something that he has to actually put effort in to use properly to murder the crew that's what we call an improvement you dullard

thank you, christ

obviously murderboning will continue to exist, I'm not fucking delusional, but if people have to do something creative to murderbone then that's good becasue it's INTERESTING

instakilling people with his grace/ebows/eswords is lame, low effort, and not interesting for anyone involved

stop trying to paint me as someone who cries because pvp exists, I'm taking issue with the fact that these methods of killing people are boring and unfun, not the killing people part

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:33 am**

cedarbridge wrote:You were the one claiming that a stun gun capable of keeping 3 people stunlocked at once somehow has a huge hole that can be defeated by running forward with a stun prod.

Yes, the secret to victory and the huge hole in the strengths of the ebow is not getting shot by the ebow. It's that simple.

Qbopper wrote:
danno wrote:ok but if the traitor has to hold something that he has to actually put effort in to use properly to murder the crew that's what we call an improvement you dullard
thank you, christ

obviously murderboning will continue to exist, I'm not fucking delusional, but if people have to do something creative to murderbone then that's good becasue it's INTERESTING

instakilling people with his grace/ebows/eswords is lame, low effort, and not interesting for anyone involved

stop trying to paint me as someone who cries because pvp exists, I'm taking issue with the fact that these methods of killing people are boring and unfun, not the killing people part

I keep explaining that the traitor gear we have already is fine. What do you even want by "something that actually requires effort" or "something interesting"? It's really easy to point to traitor gear and say "THIS IS BORING", perhaps justly so, but what's the alternative? What other options do traitors have that the novelty of it wouldn't wear out fast if it became the meta and was seen every few rounds? Botany? Virology? Science? Cargo? Mining? Genetics?

No. Every one of these people hate too, perhaps even more than regular murderboners when they're used effectively, because, surprise surprise, stuff obtainable on the station is often better than default stuff from the uplink if you spend the time to get it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:51 am**

Yes, the secret to victory and the huge hole in the strengths of the ebow is not getting shot by the ebow. It's that simple.

Yeah let's gloss over the part where being closer also makes it easier for him to hit you. Also the part where he's probably not standing still and most likely moving just as fast as you making the melee thing a joke unless you're doing the jousting bit which all boils down to luck.

Oh and if he's running from you which he most likely is, he's got the advantage of being able to throw down something slippery for an extra chance at stunning you.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:58 am**

They were the ones saying I was trying to use a baton like a mongoloid, disabler would be my choice of weapon as it's spammable and goes through glass I can use for cover.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:01 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:They were the ones saying I was trying to use a baton like a mongoloid, disabler would be my choice of weapon as it's spammable and goes through glass I can use for cover.

ShadowDimentio wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:You were the one claiming that a stun gun capable of keeping 3 people stunlocked at once somehow has a huge hole that can be defeated by running forward with a stun prod.
Yes, the secret to victory and the huge hole in the strengths of the ebow is not getting shot by the ebow. It's that simple.

And yet you still argued in favor for it as an efficient counter. Good job mongoloid.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:05 am**

Bumrushing the enemy doesn't mean WHIP OUT YOUR BATON AND RUN STRIGHT AT THEM it means rush at them and try to taze/flashbang them before they can shoot at you as you leave cover to take the shot.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:13 am**

Just because a thing is not 100% unbeatable it doesn't mean it's not too strong

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:11 pm**

>People think you can't buy an ebow and a esword together
>we have a fucking bar sign called combo cafe with ebow and esword together

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:19 pm**

stuns are bad and all but the ebow isn't the only fucking stun in the game in fact I recall there being multiple stuns in the game bruh I'd trade a sec officer's gear for 12 tcs but a taser along with a baton is gonna fuckin win every time if you don't succ mate you even got gangbangs and peespray did I mention charging at him spamming z with your flasho or asking for help I mean lings have the tentacle that can instantly agressive grab for a free disarm at least a stun if they have trouble getting outta the grab a guarunteed stun if you have soap stun papers are a surprise cock cult has fucking stun throwing recallable spears and I mean an assistant vs an ebower can win with an ied spear and I mean a traitor with a stechkin or revolver can spam it and the stechkin is cheaper and has more ammo and the revolver can double tap laddo the ebow isn't the problem just because people prefer it because they don't have to deal with ammo

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:20 pm**

The rocks recovery from his brain embolism is slow but steady.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:52 pm**

So yeah use those other options instead of the ebow, at least you have to kill a sec officer to get your taser, and you have to stop to recharge it

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:46 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:I keep explaining that the traitor gear we have already is fine. What do you even want by "something that actually requires effort" or "something interesting"? It's really easy to point to traitor gear and say "THIS IS BORING", perhaps justly so, but what's the alternative? What other options do traitors have that the novelty of it wouldn't wear out fast if it became the meta and was seen every few rounds? Botany? Virology? Science? Cargo? Mining? Genetics?

so just because I don't have any specific ideas in one thread, my opinion isn't any less valid? Just because I'm not able to come up with a unique idea off the top of my head to replace something doesn't change the issues I have with these items

The point of this thread wasn't "let's come up with new traitor items to make people not use the ebow", the point of the thread was "the ebow is insanely good and needs to be reconsidered".

ShadowDimentio wrote:Yes, the secret to victory and the huge hole in the strengths of the ebow is not getting shot by the ebow. It's that simple.

what kind of logic even is this

"don't get hit" is the "counter" to anything in the damn game, but we don't balance by saying "did you get hit? too bad it's perfectly fine your fault for being bad"

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:51 pm**

Time to go full bay and upgrade lasers to 1-2 shot lethal because "just don't get hit"

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:53 pm**

Pulse rifles for security, those traitors just have to not get hit

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:10 pm**

I posted this on github when there was a PR about it:
- Make the recharge time 500% of what it is
- Make it recharge all shots at once

Now it is a hit and run weapon, not good for continous shooting.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:14 pm**

XDTM wrote:That only addresses the balance issue, though, and there's the second issue of it being a really fucking boring and flat weapon that is mostly used to make murderbone easy, which is solved through removal.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:26 pm**

XDTM wrote:If something is strong enough to be locked out of nuke ops it might just be too strong for lone traitors

I don't think thats because it was "too strong". Simply wasn't a thematic fit and there's been a good deal of effort to take stealthops gear out of the nukeops.

I did nerf the ebow last month, cut its damage in half to 8 per shot instead of 15.

I'll wait and watch the traitor purchase statistics to see if I should add a second or two to the cooldown.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:28 pm**

Turn it into an actual crossbow with special toxin-coated bolts that impale people and poison them at a steady rate. Limited number of bolts that can be re-used or buy more from the uplink.

Suddenly it still works great as a hit-and-run weapon that deals decent damage but is immensely more difficult to spam and requires effort to effectively mass-murder with.

I mostly just want some sort of crossbow to shoot people with and pin them to walls ala HL2 tbh.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:30 pm**

We need traitor gear to be powerful because we balance our game for people with 10 rounds vs people with 10k rounds.

It would be extremely boring if an unarmed assistant was on even footing with newer players, they'd just get destroyed every time. Traitors need crutches if we want anything at all to happen in the round.

If you want to stop someone with 10k rounds from killing everyone have an admin tell them to stop/antag ban them, chasing after whatever is currently the best item won't work long term unless you completely redo combat so numbers matter more and you can't juggle stuns to kill a crowd (but now every conversion mode collapses because security is always outnumbered)

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:43 pm**

Kor gets it.
This isn't an issue with the ebow. (And trust me, newer traitor players DO need a strong stun item, because it takes them 5 seconds to shoot.)
It's an issue because it's a strong stun weapon being used by players who could probably kill the entire station with nothing but the clown's PDA and a toolbox anyway.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:08 pm**

I'm fine with powerful gear, and you have a point about the requiring a crutch (most people aren't robust enough to use on station stuff to kill everyone), but I still don't think the ebow is healthy for the game

There's "powerful" and then there's stuff that is bad enough to the point of people making forum posts about it

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:23 pm**

"Powerful enough for people to complain about" equals "powerful at all", people have will complain about anything that dunks them. Examples include literally every department.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:02 pm**

if we're afraid of newbies not doing anything why don't we just gate them from antag until they get their feet wet and balance around the idea the antagonist is a veteran?

Of course the trick is discerning between the two, and even then some people get lmao'D on occasion (like myself).

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:17 pm**

>tiny niche decade old game on an obscure platform where over 90% of people who even try it quit and never come back after the first day
>locking new players out of the most fun part of the game will surely work

What if instead of catering to people who are so burned out on the game they can only enjoy it by silently and robotically clicking on every single player in the game until they stop moving, alienating the rest of our playerbase and gutting our features in the process, we just banned those people.

Where would you even draw the line at "newbie"? A player with 300 hours in the game isn't new, but they'll still probably be stomped by the top 1% of players like Amelius no matter how many weapons you nerf.

ShadowDimentio wrote:"Powerful enough for people to complain about" equals "powerful at all", people have will complain about anything that dunks them. Examples include literally every department.

Examples include literally every videogame in existence*

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:21 pm**

I'll concede that pointing to people complaining is a terrible metric because of course it is, but I'll still stand by everything else I said

Also Kor, though I don't disagree with your stance I don't see it happening, though I'd love to be proved wrong - more rule 0 bans shouldn't be a bad thing imo

EDIT: okay maybe "bans" is a bad thing to say because I don't like the idea of just silently nuking people who don't fit the "vision" of the game admins have, but you know what I mean, there should be more steps taken towards a game that isn't focused on "make people go horizontal"

You can cause chaos and fun gameplay as a traitor in ways that aren't killing people directly - hell I'd argue that's the least interesting gameplay, as my posts show

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:25 pm**

I'd personally love it if murderbone was actually frowned upon/punished. It's only fun for the murderer, everyone else gets to wait at the very least 15 minutes before playing again.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:28 pm**

The idea of trying to balance a game that has

-Between 10 and 80 players

-Thousands of items

-No sort of matchmaking/elo/player skill taken into account in job assignments whatsoever, with first time players facing off against people who play 12 hours a day

-Roles that may or may not be filled at random

-10+ modes with their own rules entirely, all of them asymmetric

-The same map pool for all player numbers/modes/etc

Is just a complete joke.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:40 pm**

You're a terrible ideologue of an admin if you think shooting a ban at people who don't fit your vision of the game and haven't broken any rules. Don't do this to yourselves, Qbopper/Kor.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:49 pm**

Obviously the rules would be changed if people were going to be banned for it.

I'm not declaring intent to ban everyone who ever kills as traitor, I'm saying that there is only so much you can fix code side.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:53 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:You're a terrible ideologue of an admin if you think shooting a ban at people who don't fit your vision of the game and haven't broken any rules. Don't do this to yourselves, Qbopper/Kor.

Like kor says it's not going to be "herp derp you broke unwritten meme rule #46 BANNED", we're obviously talking about changing the rules so that people who do shit like murderbone because lol ecks dee would be breaking a rule

I still don't see that change happening, but that's a different discussion

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:56 pm**

I don't either, as I think it'd be wildly unpopular.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:00 pm**

If we managed to get rid of the singulo i think there's a chance of making a rule against murderbone.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:05 pm**

If we banned murderbone, we'd have to ban validhunting. It's not fair on the antags if they can't murderbone while they have a lynch mob armed with stunprods after them.

We'd also probably have to give traitors/changelings more metashields, and not just for their explicitly disguised equipment, and give malf AIs metashields for hacked APCs since their go-to solution for being found out is to go nuclear (AKA: Murderbone the whole z-level) if the shuttle ain't on its way and/or past the point of no return.

Plus we have Wizard and Nuke OPs, two modes designed around mass murder. And friendly wizard is cancer and you all know it so don't even suggest that.

As much as we might hate it, the license to murderbone is a cornerstone of our playerbase and removing it will have a knock-on effect.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:04 pm**

If we banned murderbone, we'd have to ban validhunting. It's not fair on the antags if they can't murderbone while they have a lynch mob armed with stunprods after them.

If the lynch mob comes knocking and the traitor whips out his murder boner to kill them all that's fine and all. Banning them for that would be stupid. If they just do the same ebow/esword or dual esword shit every time they roll traitor just so they can disregard their objectives and immediately try to murder the crew, especially on low pop then fuck yeah, antag ban them.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:05 pm**

So many pubbies it would literally not matter or dent viewing figures.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:39 pm**

Anonmare wrote:If we banned murderbone, we'd have to ban validhunting. It's not fair on the antags if they can't murderbone while they have a lynch mob armed with stunprods after them.

We'd also probably have to give traitors/changelings more metashields, and not just for their explicitly disguised equipment, and give malf AIs metashields for hacked APCs since their go-to solution for being found out is to go nuclear (AKA: Murderbone the whole z-level) if the shuttle ain't on its way and/or past the point of no return.

Plus we have Wizard and Nuke OPs, two modes designed around mass murder. And friendly wizard is cancer and you all know it so don't even suggest that.

As much as we might hate it, the license to murderbone is a cornerstone of our playerbase and removing it will have a knock-on effect.

Some antags murderboning is fine, especially the wiz and ops since the round is already cut short as soon as they die. Malf AIs literally have a button to kill everyone, so i doubt that using it will be punished, at most it might be considered unsporting if the crew can offer little resistance.

Traitors/lings getting more metashields might be nice, but don't go telling me that because they can't start mass murdering they're worse at doing their objectives. Except maybe for hijack, there's no need to kill the whole crew. Validhunting sucks as well, but it's unrelated to the traitor being able to murderbone, since self-defense would definitely be acceptable.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:45 pm**

Why do we need to become more like yog.

If you want stupid metashields just go to yog.

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:56 pm**

By metashield i meant more metabreaking to prevent instavaliding once you see [traitor-only item] in someone's pocket. I might've misunderstood the term though.

/tg/Station 13

Da Ebow

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