/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Steelpoint wrote:At least you admit that the Sleepy Pen originally was a "one-hit win" weapon.

Now you have to make some actual effort to silently kill off someone. Of course you can still easily kill people loudly, until Security busts in the door.

Yes it was a one-hit win weapon, but only a single use. I always used it in conjuction with the gas mask in order to infiltrate. Nerfing C4 was big enough change IMO, seeing how we are talking about a single use weapon, not something that can be used against the entire crew, I mean not even a point increase just plain out removal of the ability? Way too harsh.

Phalanx300 wrote:Losing is never fun

Seriously, probably the best thing you said so far.

Phalanx300 wrote:Removing the parapen has no effect

Then why don't you shut up about it already

And the other posts are not rude and annoying? Fuck that.

Phalanx, you seem to be misunderstanding something, so I'm going to make this perfectly clear. Antag players are NOT more important than other players. They might have the right to take fun away from other players without rule 1 bans, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have an insanely easy way to do so.

Konork wrote:Phalanx, you seem to be misunderstanding something, so I'm going to make this perfectly clear. Antag players are NOT more important than other players. They might have the right to take fun away from other players without rule 1 bans, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have an insanely easy way to do so.

Its one thing to make it harder, its another to make a automatic alert you are being pricked without a way to instantly hinder that enemy. Having to carry a stunprod 10/10 times should not be a requirement for the sleepy pen to be viable.

It's not if you have a brain and are willing to be creative.

And yeah, it very much can be. You don't expect any single item be instakill on its own?

"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's not if you have a brain and are willing to be creative.

And yeah, it very much can be. You don't expect any single item be instakill on its own?

"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

Bad design is a bad design. Was even admitted above that the item needs changes. Yet here you are again arguing for the sake of arguing.

Phalanx300 wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's not if you have a brain and are willing to be creative.

And yeah, it very much can be. You don't expect any single item be instakill on its own?

"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

Bad design is a bad design. Was even admitted above that the item needs changes. Yet here you are again arguing for the sake of arguing.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

There's a point in this. You avoided it with sweeping generalizations and ad hominem, Phalanx.

Cipher3 wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's not if you have a brain and are willing to be creative.

And yeah, it very much can be. You don't expect any single item be instakill on its own?

"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

Bad design is a bad design. Was even admitted above that the item needs changes. Yet here you are again arguing for the sake of arguing.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

There's a point in this. You avoided it with sweeping generalizations and ad hominem, Phalanx.

Not really, since that was indeed said before. A traitor item depending on a improvised weapon to be effective means it needs to be altered. Its a waste of points currently really when you look at the other stuff you can get.

Phalanx300 wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's not if you have a brain and are willing to be creative.

And yeah, it very much can be. You don't expect any single item be instakill on its own?

"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

Bad design is a bad design. Was even admitted above that the item needs changes. Yet here you are again arguing for the sake of arguing.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

There's a point in this. You avoided it with sweeping generalizations and ad hominem, Phalanx.

Not really, since that was indeed said before. A traitor item depending on a improvised weapon to be effective means it needs to be altered. Its a waste of points currently really when you look at the other stuff you can get.

You seem to be obsesed with this pen + stunprod connection you've formed in your mind. It's almost like it's hard to grab a flash or buy one of the other traitor weapons that stuns and, amazingly, is reusable. Ultimately, I refuse to take you seriously if you insist that the parapen was good as it stood.

Now, see personally I'm not likely to buy, say, a Stetchkin. I feel that other traitor weapons and things that I can gain without TC (Yes, without TC! It's clearly heresy to rely on tools not warped in at great expense across the light years!) are liable to handle things well enough for me. But I've seen people use it quite effectively, and I'd respect its place within the traitor arsenal for a quieter, more classy assassin than myself.

I even said it before in some thread, may be even this one.

You can change identity. You can pretend to be victim. You can distract security and just hide afterwards. You can block all exits. You can hit them really hard. You can lure them into place from which they can't get out on their own.

But obviously sleep pen is not usable without stunprod no no no.

Don't really see what the mutey pen contributes to any of those that the already existing emp kit could not do better. At least newling crap was innately reusable this is just the kind of garbage we get with the antag protected power gamers and corresponding spree of antag nerfs because they don't get to be those so screw em.

Phalanx300 wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's not if you have a brain and are willing to be creative.

And yeah, it very much can be. You don't expect any single item be instakill on its own?

"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

Bad design is a bad design. Was even admitted above that the item needs changes. Yet here you are again arguing for the sake of arguing.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:"oh my god I have to carry a weapon to kill somebody my special traitor item doesn't do it for me"

There's a point in this. You avoided it with sweeping generalizations and ad hominem, Phalanx.

Not really, since that was indeed said before. A traitor item depending on a improvised weapon to be effective means it needs to be altered. Its a waste of points currently really when you look at the other stuff you can get.

use the ebow

Why should you depend on a stunning weapon? The effects of the pen should at the very least allow you to robust your enemy with a fire extinquisher.

they do

Phalanx300 wrote:Why should you depend on a stunning weapon?

Because combat system is terrible and rarely murder involves JUST killing target without stunning it somehow prior to that

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:Why should you depend on a stunning weapon?

Because combat system is terrible and rarely murder involves JUST killing target without stunning it somehow prior to that

Buff non-stunning weapons. Once had a fight where I hit a guy 15 times with a crowbar and he was still running away, try that in real life... No wonder stuns are so OP.

Phalanx300 wrote:Buff non-stunning weapons.

So assistants can kill each other, blob, wizard and nuke ops in 3 hits? No thanks.

Phalanx300 wrote:real life

sigh

Phalanx300 wrote:No wonder stuns are so OP.

Yeah, jee, I wonder why the ability to make your enemy do nothing to fight you is so powerful? I mean, you admit that parapen is overpowered right here.

Drop this "buffs are always good, nerfs are always bad" mentality please. It's just incorrect.

Phalanx300 wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:Why should you depend on a stunning weapon?

Because combat system is terrible and rarely murder involves JUST killing target without stunning it somehow prior to that

Buff non-stunning weapons....

Buy an esword.

MisterPerson wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:Why should you depend on a stunning weapon?

Because combat system is terrible and rarely murder involves JUST killing target without stunning it somehow prior to that

Buff non-stunning weapons....

Buy an esword.

You can esword someone to death before they can disarm you if you surprise them, provided you're not dumb enough to try it on someone well armed.

Cipher3 wrote:You can esword someone to death before they can disarm you if your ping is good enough, provided you're not dumb enough to try it on someone well armed.

fixed

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:Buff non-stunning weapons.

So assistants can kill each other, blob, wizard and nuke ops in 3 hits? No thanks.

Phalanx300 wrote:real life

sigh

Phalanx300 wrote:No wonder stuns are so OP.

Yeah, jee, I wonder why the ability to make your enemy do nothing to fight you is so powerful? I mean, you admit that parapen is overpowered right here.

Drop this "buffs are always good, nerfs are always bad" mentality please. It's just incorrect.

Who is talking 3 hits? Unarmored guy taking 15 hits with a crowbar without going down is balanced? You really think so?

Stunning weapons are so powerfull because the alternative is crap.

I´m saying current Parapen is shit and needs a buff. Revert would be preferable for something which is a single use and traitor only but with all the hugbox that is not happening probably

Phalanx300 wrote:Who is talking 3 hits? Unarmored guy taking 15 hits with a crowbar without going down is balanced? You really think so?

How many hits will be enough then? Where do you draw a line?

Phalanx300 wrote:Stunning weapons are so powerfull because the alternative is crap.

Now, stunning weapons are so powerful because they let you make your enemy do nothing to fight you

Jee, it sounds like you have always used parapen as traitor. Well I'm glad you can't now.

I mean even after admitting that parapen was overpowered, you want it back. Just go away, seriously.

I wonder how the game would go if we removed most forms of ranged stunning weapons? So the only stun weapons would be melee weapons (Stun Batons, Flashes, etc), maybe a egun or so for the Captain/HoS and Nuke Op/Wizards?

Losing is not fun, correct. However dying to something you can fight back against and dying instantly with no way to defend yourself are two sides of the coin.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:Who is talking 3 hits? Unarmored guy taking 15 hits with a crowbar without going down is balanced? You really think so?

How many hits will be enough then? Where do you draw a line?

Phalanx300 wrote:Stunning weapons are so powerfull because the alternative is crap.

Now, stunning weapons are so powerful because they let you make your enemy do nothing to fight you

Jee, it sounds like you have always used parapen as traitor. Well I'm glad you can't now.

I mean even after admitting that parapen was overpowered, you want it back. Just go away, seriously.

So you don't want stuns at all? Grow a pair. I suggest you stay away from games where death can be fast. (Dark Souls, Dota, Counter Strike etc.)

And Steelpoint that would be interesting to try, this whole game is revoled around stuns. Then again with normal weapons so laughably weak it really is no suprise.

Phalanx300 wrote:So you don't want stuns at all?

what

I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

That very fact is a major inbalance. Topics? This is my own topic the subject of parapen went to the overpoweredness of stuns. One crowbar hit to the head will knock someone out, 2/3 more will kill someone. And here we have someone running away after 15 hits to the head, WTF?! And you wonder why stuns are OP?

Phalanx300 wrote:Who is talking 3 hits?

Phalanx300 wrote:One crowbar hit to the head will knock someone out, 2/3 more will kill someone.

Dude, nobody gives a fuck that you can kill with crowbar. Even baystation, which has a focus on sort-of realism, doesn't do that kind of shit. You can spacewalk, so what, you want space to instantly knock you out like it should? No, that's not fun, fuck you.

Phalanx300 wrote:And you wonder why stuns are OP?

You should take logic classes. You're basically saying "this is overpowered, because everything else is underpowered". Sure, if you take into account absolutely EVERYTHING, that may be just a silly argument about half empty or half full glass, but you only talk about damage values here. You don't take into account health or anything fucking else. You cannot just buff all weapons and say that nothing has changed. It's not how it works, matey.

The power of weapon IS NOT dependent on the power of other weapons, not necessarily. Sure, you can say that this weapon is useless, because there's a weapon just better than this weapon and still you will have stuff like how hard it is to get or produce, amount of ammo, etc.

In case of a crowbar, it's not intended to be a weapon. It's a tool. Use it as such.

Phalanx300 wrote:This is my own topic

Doesn't mean you have to shitpost. Dude, EVERYONE is telling you that you're wrong. Except Scott who is also a dumbass.

Phalanx300 wrote:

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

That very fact is a major inbalance. Topics? This is my own topic the subject of parapen went to the overpoweredness of stuns. One crowbar hit to the head will knock someone out, 2/3 more will kill someone. And here we have someone running away after 15 hits to the head, WTF?! And you wonder why stuns are OP?

still off topic.
realism does not matter.

Miauw wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

That very fact is a major inbalance. Topics? This is my own topic the subject of parapen went to the overpoweredness of stuns. One crowbar hit to the head will knock someone out, 2/3 more will kill someone. And here we have someone running away after 15 hits to the head, WTF?! And you wonder why stuns are OP?

still off topic.
realism does not matter.

Realism does matter if having things more realistic would balance the game more. And even then the feeling of more realism enhances the quality of gameplay. It does regard the topic of Sleepy Pen as its supposedly the ultimate stun weapon. Buffing other stuff might have been preferable over nerfing a one-time item.

Phalanx300 wrote:

Miauw wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

That very fact is a major inbalance. Topics? This is my own topic the subject of parapen went to the overpoweredness of stuns. One crowbar hit to the head will knock someone out, 2/3 more will kill someone. And here we have someone running away after 15 hits to the head, WTF?! And you wonder why stuns are OP?

still off topic.
realism does not matter.

Realism does matter if having things more realistic would balance the game more. And even then the feeling of more realism enhances the quality of gameplay. It does regard the topic of Sleepy Pen as its supposedly the ultimate stun weapon. Buffing other stuff might have been preferable over nerfing a one-time item.

HOW THICK ARE YOU

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

This post says everything: Stuns are supposed to do what they do. IT'S WHY YOU STUN. Even the most hardcore anti-hugbox go all-in life-or-death split-second Nordic-god level fighters don't want every single item to be realistic and deadly in Space Station 13. (And you are never more than 10 tiles from an actually good weapon)

So just stop arguing for the crowbar.


And the parapen was ridiculous as well, so if you think the sleepy pen isn't for you - don't use it. Get creative.

Phalanx300 wrote:It does regard the topic of Sleepy Pen as its supposedly the ultimate stun weapon.

Who said it was the ultimate stun weapon? The parapen was but the sleepy pen isn't.

Cipher3 wrote:

Spoiler:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:So you don't want stuns at all?

what

Valhalla update 2014

Phalanx300 wrote:

Miauw wrote:

Phalanx300 wrote:

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

That very fact is a major inbalance. Topics? This is my own topic the subject of parapen went to the overpoweredness of stuns. One crowbar hit to the head will knock someone out, 2/3 more will kill someone. And here we have someone running away after 15 hits to the head, WTF?! And you wonder why stuns are OP?

still off topic.
realism does not matter.

Realism does matter if having things more realistic would balance the game more. And even then the feeling of more realism enhances the quality of gameplay. It does regard the topic of Sleepy Pen as its supposedly the ultimate stun weapon. Buffing other stuff might have been preferable over nerfing a one-time item.

HOW THICK ARE YOU

Miauw wrote:I HIT A GUY WITH A PAPER 15 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE! BUFF PAPER!
crowbars are not weapons, dont use them as weapons.
no, i dont care about realism, crowbars are everywhere. its called balance. use an actual weapon like a toolbox or a pickaxe.
and stop derailing topics.

This post says everything: Stuns are supposed to do what they do. IT'S WHY YOU STUN. Even the most hardcore anti-hugbox go all-in life-or-death split-second Nordic-god level fighters don't want every single item to be realistic and deadly in Space Station 13. (And you are never more than 10 tiles from an actually good weapon)

So just stop arguing for the crowbar.


And the parapen was ridiculous as well, so if you think the sleepy pen isn't for you - don't use it. Get creative.

It been said multiple times that sleepy pen needs to be changed. Its a shitty item, which can´t be denied.

It was denied by literally everyone except Scott

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It was denied by literally everyone except Scott

I think Miauw said earlier that he probably would make some changes to it. Its now a useless item. Which is the opposite of balance, things can be OP but also UP. As is the case right now.

Since when mute is useless?

Mute is like the second best thing to have after stun.

>needs some changes means the same thing as "is useless"
lol

it's the first version of a new-ish item, ofc its not going to be perfect.

Miauw wrote:>needs some changes means the same thing as "is useless"
lol

it's the first version of a new-ish item, ofc its not going to be perfect.

My only gripe is I can cure sleep tox but I'm still muted for the full duration without recourse.

mutetox is sort of ridiculous atm, I accidentally made it increment a variable waaay too much.

It does need a TC cost reduction.

One of the reasons I dont play traitor seriously anymore is that there aren't enough combinations to try out. You pretty much get 2 items to dictate your strategy every time. C4 got a big nerf and it got a TC cost reduction, the same needs to happen for parapens.

Honestly, aside from syndicate bombs, I would love to see a TC increase to 15 (with some items like emags being adjusted higher in cost) as well. Traitor rounds are just so dull since its the same shit over and over. People can't afford the fun traitor accessories because once you've purchased a weapon and access you never have anything left to play with.

Everyone should just get a free bundle and be forced to make do.

the bundles suck

A bundle and 5 or 7 TC would change the game up. Remove some of the more hated combos, and encourage a bit more creativity via item starvation. Do you want to spend the TC's now getting an emag, or spend it later on an ebow or esword? Some C4 to break into bridge, and a sleepy pen to take the captain out? Assumign you did'nt get them in the bundle, which specializes you a bit.

The bundles are neat but there's enough value in the mix-and-match to justify the complexity costs.

Unless we keep adding 10,000 traitor items of course.

Antags are already picked randomly to mixed results. Forcing them to have random gear too would make the entire game so utterly rigged in sec's favour that a casino would be disgusted. That is unless you rebalanced the bundles and traitor items to all be powerful and flexible enough to make up for losing choice spawning.

Or you could just make a mess that never even bothers doing half its objectives because they suit the design so poorly, you know like lings.

I do think there should be a revision of the Bundle Box Sets so that all of them are viable.

Steelpoint wrote:I do think there should be a revision of the Bundle Box Sets so that all of them are viable.

I agree. Personally I would add an emag to every bundle that doesnt have it.
And it would be fun to have goon's surplus crate too.

leibniz wrote:Personally I would add an emag to every bundle that doesnt have it.

How horrifying.

Seems like nerfing, decreasing, removing, is a trend in the gaming universe nowadays.
Changelings got nerfed, C4 got nerfed, mining drop-rates got nerfed, and now this.
Everything fun and/or efficient gets labeled "overpowered" and cut out.
Overpowered for the sake of the eternal "giving a chance to the opponent". So, should we also give a chance to the attacker to react to the victim's defensive move ? When does it end ?
A game like SS13 should reward initiative. And the antagonists are the personification of initiative. They make shit happen. They kill, steal, wreck, and must be feared.
To the people pulling out the "click to win" argument, you forgot about cloning.

I remember a round in which i was the traitor had to kill my target twice. Because it was cloned. And i destroyed the cloning console and pods beforehand with C4.
I met my target in the shuttle after killing him twice. He survived. I try to kill him a third time in a desperate attempt, i was out of ammo and got my shit rekt by security.

You all forgot that cloning, combined to blood trail, and the lack of efficient manners to gib or space someone quickly enough for no-one to notice, make assassination objectives way harder than you think.

They are just minimizing risk. They don't really care for creative assassinations, they just care about enforcing increasingly sub par ones because they have a better chance of pulling through.

If you wanted to spice up murder you would add more ways to die.