/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Kor wrote:Infinitely detaining people without killing them has completley different IC and especially asimov implications from killing them though

Consequences remain, but reponsibllity is pretty much dissolved after they are dead in both regards as per the (go play a ghost role or something) approach, AI isn't obliged to serve corpses and sec will ramp up bodies sometimes by accident and release them to genetics & the morgue.

Not that we bother to stock many GOOD ghost roles anyway for thumb twiddling till roundend but you get what you're given.

• Aside from admin ruling, there's no defined "human rights" abstract of human/non-human status applicable outside of server rules. If the player is not able to play and is actively kept in suspension is their OOC suffering and perhaps frustration relayed into IC in a different manner to simply being in perma.

Kor wrote:A good portion of our gameplay is people taking turns getting a greenlight to power trip and have fun at anothers expense (valid!). I really dont understand all the hand wringing about this.

Which is fine I guess, grief lottery mindset isn't really my gripe here. It's specifically you can leave a player forever in la la land with very little maintenance on your own part. Maybe you've played enough to know when you're basically out of the round but many people don't, and so these items also play a very bad mind game on players.

If the game is about having fun at someone else's expense, then why not purposefully leave holes in everything so someone who wants to get revenge on a now valid person can unless said valid person keeps a close eye on them? If we're giving people the green light to be shitlers then we should at least make it difficult for them to be actively shitty unlike with N2O and straightjacket where they just plop it on and whoop game over forever haha. I think they're just not good for the game, and if the game is really about being a shitler, there should be holes in the equipment so the jerk can be counter-jerked for interesting gameplay.

People getting too attached to their characters should also know that they might be put into situations they can't reasonably get out of. That's just how shit goes. No need to add special restrictions or rule sets for such a rare occurrence.

You've been knocked out and left in sleepy land but don't want to give up that slight chance of somehow getting back in as your current character? Tab out and do some other shit, it's not like you're being forced to sit there and only look at your unconscious screen for the rest of the round.

There is no rule suggestion here, it's specifically to change all indefinite stuns to either not be indefinite or make them require maintenance.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:There is no rule suggestion here, it's specifically to change all indefinite stuns to either not be indefinite or make them require maintenance.

which is a better solution imo

Or you could just make it so ghosting kills your body so people can ghost out if they are not enjoying some antags BDSM RP or are placed under N2O but still want a chance to come back and get revenge on their killer.

I just really don't see the allure in having a infinite "fuck you" stun that we are so desperate to cling on to. Just kill them or in case the asimov ai is watching, constantly stun them into seclusion THEN kill them. There is no need (except for lings supposedly, which is a problem in itself if that's the case) for these to exist.

I've explained that people won't ghost out even though it's a valid option because in some instances people do ghost out and continue observing or what have you. That's great for them.

To some if not most, certainly more than the people who have played for several years imply, it is a very dumb OOC mind game where they'll just sit in their prison indefinitely waiting to be saved. Much like my distaste for soft crit, there MUST be an eventual resolve that allows you to escape the situation.

It's called outside interference and since that is beyond their control they can just tab out as said since their staring at the screen does not affect the outcome.

I personally find N2O internals to be insanely useful (and required if halfway they're competent) against a changeling if you want to debrain them, and useful in medbay for detaining people. Also useful for antagery if you want someone alive for some reason.

Anyway, is there an eventual resolution that lets people escape death? You keep talking about how horrible it is for people to have to sit and wait for outside help both here and in respect to soft crit but whats the difference between being stuck asleep/in crit and being stuck dead other than that you get to be camera that can fly around? Wouldn't my suggestion of making it so ghosting just killed you instead of making your body a shell that you can never re-enter fix that issue?

Because that's suicide Owegno, and already we have measures in place to frown upon antagonists who deliberately kill themselves once placed into perma/defeated and restraining them keeps them actively alive. There's no practical difference since you will not be able to naturally play your ckey again in either instance of ghosting or suicide.

Is it an OOC mindgame if I hide a body instead of gibbing it? The player might wait to be found and cloned instead of respawning or doing something else. How far does our responsibility extend to ensure people dont stare at an empty black screen despite having multiple outs?

Kor wrote:Is it an OOC mindgame if I hide a body instead of gibbing it? The player might wait to be found and cloned instead of respawning or doing something else. How far does our responsibility extend to ensure people dont stare at an empty black screen despite having multiple outs?

4d chess

It's not even an empty current screen unconscious/blind overlay has a fucking hole in it explicitly so whiny babies don't succumb or otherwise give up just like in this scenario.

Maybe if we made it fully black again then they would go the fuck away releasing them from the torment of their little porthole into the game.

Erro(?) was wrong bring back full black screen.
Save the idiots from hope.

Kor wrote:Is it an OOC mindgame if I hide a body instead of gibbing it? The player might wait to be found and cloned instead of respawning or doing something else. How far does our responsibility extend to ensure people dont stare at an empty black screen despite having multiple outs?

They can observe freely while dead if they want to wait it out.

Owegno wrote:I personally find N2O internals to be insanely useful (and required if halfway they're competent) against a changeling if you want to debrain them, and useful in medbay for detaining people. Also useful for antagery if you want someone alive for some reason.

Anyway, is there an eventual resolution that lets people escape death? You keep talking about how horrible it is for people to have to sit and wait for outside help both here and in respect to soft crit but whats the difference between being stuck asleep/in crit and being stuck dead other than that you get to be camera that can fly around? Wouldn't my suggestion of making it so ghosting just killed you instead of making your body a shell that you can never re-enter fix that issue?

I've already said that the lings requiring N2O is a problem with lings, not with N2O permastun.

That's a pretty important difference between la la land and being dead...

Watching traitors slaughter the crew or a ling go rampant is somehow comparable to watching a 3x3 screen around your person?

Again, I don't see the allure to having these outside of having a changeling, which AGAIN is a problem in itself. The only argument I have really gotten out of this thread as for why they should exist is that because they already exist if even that. I did see "HUGBOX" so maybe people are just afraid of that? idk.

Owegno wrote:Wouldn't my suggestion of making it so ghosting just killed you instead of making your body a shell that you can never re-enter fix that issue?

No because whatever ghosting does is irrelevant. The game should not put you in the situation of "should I wait for 5 more minutes and continue to play?" or "should I just succumb and watch?" because people often choose the first one over and over and over. It should make that decision for you, which is why current crit is nice because it slowly kills you.

Incomptinence wrote:It's not even an empty current screen unconscious/blind overlay has a fucking hole in it explicitly so whiny babies don't succumb or otherwise give up just like in this scenario.

Maybe if we made it fully black again then they would go the fuck away releasing them from the torment of their little porthole into the game.

Erro(?) was wrong bring back full black screen.
Save the idiots from hope.

Imagine being this upset people want to stick around and play as their main character in a roleplaying game.

I'd stick around because I can take it.

You'd make a thread like this because you can't.

Incomptinence wrote:I'd stick around because I can take it.

You'd make a thread like this because you can't.

This problem has never/rarely happened with myself personally, please don't confuse this with a I DEDSTUNNED. I personally would have just tabbed out and watch youtube until I hear shaking up and checked every now and then to see if the N2O or something ran out.

I made a thread because it's not good gameplay to just sit there and twiddle your thumbs and it's a really lame newbie (sometimes even veterans fall for it) trap for the sake of (?). Of all these posts, not a single one explains to me the value of these items in any situation outside of lings.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:I'd stick around because I can take it.

You'd make a thread like this because you can't.

This problem has never/rarely happened with myself personally, please don't confuse this with a I DEDSTUNNED. I personally would have just tabbed out and watch youtube until I hear shaking up and checked every now and then to see if the N2O or something ran out.

I made a thread because it's not good gameplay to just sit there and twiddle your thumbs and it's a really lame newbie (sometimes even veterans fall for it) trap for the sake of (?). Of all these posts, not a single one explains to me the value of these items in any situation outside of lings.

it would be nice if "get good" or similar posts could be banned here (unless they were really warranted) because what the fuck does "I'D DEAL WITH IT" add to the conversation

Really now?

Back on the table, another indefinite stun method - stun chaining. Though that actually requires effort to letting N20 and automatically breathing do the work.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
I made a thread because it's not good gameplay to just sit there and twiddle your thumbs and it's a really lame newbie (sometimes even veterans fall for it) trap for the sake of (?). Of all these posts, not a single one explains to me the value of these items in any situation outside of lings.

Asimov-compliant method of execution if borgs/AI are up your ass. You're essentially dead while in sleepy land but technically unharmed so AI is happy.

You mean the execution room specially built for killing people or literally anywhere without cameras then law 2 borgs to go away. Mmmmm

If they are already dead by the time the AI is aware of it, its entirely personal for the AI to chase it up as to the presented 'humanity' of the deceased made void.

MMMiracles wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
I made a thread because it's not good gameplay to just sit there and twiddle your thumbs and it's a really lame newbie (sometimes even veterans fall for it) trap for the sake of (?). Of all these posts, not a single one explains to me the value of these items in any situation outside of lings.

Asimov-compliant method of execution if borgs/AI are up your ass. You're essentially dead while in sleepy land but technically unharmed so AI is happy.

What would you do if these were removed? When I play sec with a crazy AI on my rear I don't think to N2O tbh, I either kill the person silently or just toss them into perma until I get the opportunity.

With that said, I know for a fact N2O or straightjacket have other (and in my opinion better) alternatives regardless of the situation.

If this thread isn't for yourselves and this is for new players or some shit that's pretty patronising and another iteration of dumbing stuff down on the presumption they are unlearning imbeciles.

Incomptinence wrote:If this thread isn't for yourselves and this is for new players or some shit that's pretty patronising and another iteration of dumbing stuff down on the presumption they are unlearning imbeciles.

If you're claiming hugbox or "git gud" it's a double edged sword in that needing a no maintenance indefinite stun is hugbox too. It's literally one of the most dumbed down thing on the game. "put on body" "player now can do nothing without friend".

That's arguably the most handholding non-antag item in the game currently.

Here's another for you, zap someone with a taser and slice them 3 times in the head with a sharpened captains sabre/changeling armblade for a close to instant decapitation. Practically the same in helplessness UNLESS (on nearly all counts) you have adrenaline implants or gland enabled to offset the stun.

Helplessness is a game feature albeit a frustrating one for players that our combat revolves around in nearly all aspects, from simple slipping on soap, tasers or knocking people's health/stamina down until they fall into critical.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:No because whatever ghosting does is irrelevant. The game should not put you in the situation of "should I wait for 5 more minutes and continue to play?" or "should I just succumb and watch?" because people often choose the first one over and over and over. It should make that decision for you, which is why current crit is nice because it slowly kills you.

I'm curious has anyone complained about sitting unconscious for extended periods of time with no rescue. I really have a hard time believe our players are so stupid they would rather sit staring at a blank screen then, I dunno, tabbing out to play another game or just ghosting to observe. This all feels like an attempt to dumb down the game to cater to the hypothetical bambies who are apparently trapped by mindgames even though nobody has presented proof that these bambies even exist.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If you're claiming hugbox or "git gud" it's a double edged sword in that needing a no maintenance indefinite stun is hugbox too. It's literally one of the most dumbed down thing on the game. "put on body" "player now can do nothing without friend".

That's arguably the most handholding non-antag item in the game currently.

If someone has the ability to N2O internals someone they could of killed them. So they are either A: Using it temporarily or B: Could of just killed the person which is much easier. You could say the same for any method of killing people. "Click person 3 times with e-sword.", "Player can now do nothing without friend".

This is a very frustrating thread.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Here's another for you, zap someone with a taser and slice them 3 times in the head with a sharpened captains sabre/changeling armblade for a close to instant decapitation. Practically the same in helplessness UNLESS (on nearly all counts) you have adrenaline implants or gland enabled to offset the stun.

Helplessness is a game feature albeit a frustrating one for players that our combat revolves around in nearly all aspects, from simple slipping on soap, tasers or knocking people's health/stamina down until they fall into critical.

I realize that, but that is not 0 maintenance. The attacker has to charge the taser, pull out the weapon, and attack the player which DOES leave holes like someone hearing them or blood splatter or what have you. The attacker then has to maintain the area post-attack or risk being caught.

The only hope for you with N2O internals or straightjacket is you get found. They leave 0 traces whatsoever and are completely silent. After you put them on, especially n2o, the only thing you have to ever worry about is someone stumbling on the corpse. To tie this altogether, the player just sits there.

I'm curious has anyone complained about sitting unconscious for extended periods of time with no rescue. I really have a hard time believe our players are so stupid they would rather sit staring at a blank screen then, I dunno, tabbing out to play another game or just ghosting to observe. This all feels like an attempt to dumb down the game to cater to the hypothetical bambies who are apparently trapped by mindgames even though nobody has presented proof that these bambies even exist.

Yes.

"dumb down the game" -- YOU ARE LITERALLY PUTTING AN OBJECT ON SOMEONE THAT HAS NO COUNTER **AT ALL** EXCEPT GETTING SOMEONE ELSE WITHOUT ANY FURTHER EFFORT ON YOUR PART REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

I guess at this point though we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think they add anything positive to the game whatsoever.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:The attacker has to charge the taser, pull out the weapon, and attack the player which DOES leave holes like someone hearing them or blood splatter or what have you. The attacker then has to maintain the area post-attack or risk being caught.

You have to do all those things for the knockout internals as well plus managing the victims inventory

Kor wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:The attacker has to charge the taser, pull out the weapon, and attack the player which DOES leave holes like someone hearing them or blood splatter or what have you. The attacker then has to maintain the area post-attack or risk being caught.

You have to do all those things for the knockout internals as well plus managing the victims inventory

true

B-b-but I might not leave a blood spatter!

Our extremely professional detectives may never fiiiiind meeeee...

*corpse flies out the airlock*

Justify N2O clouds right now or I shoot

PKPenguin321 wrote:Justify N2O clouds right now or I shoot

Placing trace amounts of it into your oxygen tank so you're constantly giggling/laughing while using it.

MMMiracles wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:Justify N2O clouds right now or I shoot

Placing trace amounts of it into your oxygen tank so you're constantly giggling/laughing while using it.

bring back BZ for a heckin good time

Why did we replace BZ with Freon? BZ was the only gas that actually had a use in Xenobiology since the person who made BZ changed it so that it makes slimes sleep instead of CO2.

Honestly I just toss lings underneath the Sec gulag shuttle, free gibber and it's mostly secure enough to use.

The only reasonable time someone is going to use a N2O or whatever internals to keep someone stunned forever is for a extraordinarily dangerous individual like a Changeling or a Wizard, and in both cases they are both 100% fine to execute.

I don't really see a issue here.

Steelpoint wrote:Honestly I just toss lings underneath the Sec gulag shuttle, free gibber and it's mostly secure enough to use.

XYZ lings can't die, so you refer to a limited list of guranteed ways to gib them indefinitely or N20 them, the antag is broken

On normal prisoners its meta-overkill to counteract implants that can't be detected prior with a check but can be removed with surgery, besides from breaking the doors (throw them in the main room and close the blast doors to prevent re-entry to the cells) they aren't going anywhere and are caught.

---

A unkillable antagonist that can go loud, stab people to death but never be destroyed without calling a shuttle to land on them if they smash and space the gibber & cremator boards beforehand, and perma being mapped too un-secure for the destructible environment system are both coder's fault rather than the actions of players or anything we could use in policy.

Well we all know Changelings are in a bad place. The requests to adopt Goonling have been raging for a very long time.