/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:34 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Either works (see: bayonetta)

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:16 pm**

I agree with the notion that they should get a distinct colour scheme. Combinations of black and red are way too common - there's security, syndicate, cult and more.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:17 pm**

Make them bright green and yellow.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:35 pm**

captain sawrge wrote:Make them bright green and yellow.

they should be sick-green and piss-yellow.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:43 pm**

Why not black and purple?

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:40 pm**

Because the xhuis sprites don't look amazing and the black and red one is animated to pulse

Or we could just go with the runeless one and give it a nice eye color v

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:14 pm**

Make them pure white

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:05 pm**

The old shadowling sprites (spooky eyes and a black body) seems like it'd fit best until a different look for them is decided on, as they're better-looking than the shadowperson sprites as well as more iconic for old-timers who were around for original slings

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:48 pm**

Got a chance to trade for it today.

Thoughts:

1) Doors are a problem. I had to destroy every (ID required) airlock in my area because getting caught in the light disables your only escape tool so it was suicide to go into a new area without destroying a door to give you an escape route on foot. Your only other option is to hold an ID in your free hand but just like having to smash open a half dozen doors, it's clumsy and not ideal. This either requires an AOE anti-light spell (i.e. statues, or the old sling spells), or some alternative mobility option. Nightmare play encourages you to de-power rooms so it also makes sense that their armblade should pry open unpowered doors. I think one solution here might be to just let their armblade crack open any non-bolted door instantly - or making a click on the door let you phase through it even while lit. I think another reasonably fair idea would be to let the Nightmare have a large AOE that causes lights to flicker and after about 10 seconds all the "affected" lights will either blow out or temporarily shut off. It would also add to the spook factor since right now they don't really have a lot of flavor that is apparent to anyone else.

2) They're a tad TOO sensitive to light. Not from damage, but even the slightest hint of light will disable shadow walk. Going by a (fulltile) window to space in a pitch black room will disable shadow walk. The current night vision options compound this issue because you have to pick between "I can notice slight amounts of light but only because I can't see anything else because im blind" or "Ok I have night vision but its really hard to notice small amounts of light". This also means that stuff like being "immune to gunfire in shadows" is virtually useless since anyone holding a flashlight+PDA will trigger you being "in the light" from the same distance they can actually see you - so outside of people blindly spraying lasers down a maint hall, it's pretty useless.

3) Melee-only combat is pretty awkward. My first victim got away and yelled about me because they landed two pushes on me back to back while fleeing. Generally speaking trying to hit someone at full speed is very difficult, at the same time it would be an obvious death sentence if Nightmares got to slow/stun people. The least controversial buff would be that if its dark enough for me to dodge bullets, its probably dark enough for me to dodge the flailing of some half-dead doctor. It's hard to strike a balance here but at the end of the day I think the Nightmare should have more combat options besides "Naked man with esword". It really depends on whether you want the Nightmare to be able to take on the average security officer with a flashlight on their helmet. As it stands you can only target the weak and defenseless, anyone with a gun or stun weapon will easily kill you.

4) I didn't test it but my first instinct after playing was "I would really like to get my hand on a spray bottle with water inside". Should probably prevent that if you haven't already.

Those were my first impressions.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:52 pm**

Armblades ought to have the innate ability to jimmy open any non-bolted airlock, unless Kor removed that from the Nightmare's?

Light ought to need to be a certain intensity. Back in the old light system, it was light intensity level 7 to proc being considered in the light

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:39 pm**

1. If there are no lights you can just jaunt out. Why are you destroying doors?

2. Get good!

3. You can jaunt around him dodging attacks in the darkness

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:06 pm**

I explained it dude, if you're being hunted (by people with lights obviously) then you can't escape through doors, you have to destroy doors so you have somewhere you can run and try to regain shadow-walking.

Jaunting in middle of a melee fight isn't an option, as soon as you get in range to hit them they can hit you, it's that simple.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:14 pm**

They're not stun immune and they can hold items, which means they can abuse the combat system like humans do but one man with one taser is the end of you. This sucks.
They should be immune to stuns, but not able to hold items, so they're a more consistent threat instead of losing to the first man with a taser they encounter.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:23 pm**

Anonmare wrote:Armblades ought to have the innate ability to jimmy open any non-bolted airlock, unless Kor removed that from the Nightmare's?

Light ought to need to be a certain intensity. Back in the old light system, it was light intensity level 7 to proc being considered in the light

It isn't an actual armblade

In regards to intensity I could make the projectile avoidance chance scale with how much light there is rather than only work in absolute darkness

I'll probably add some kind of melee resistance in the dark as well

ChangelingRain wrote:They're not stun immune and they can hold items, which means they can abuse the combat system like humans do but one man with one taser is the end of you. This sucks.
They should be immune to stuns, but not able to hold items, so they're a more consistent threat instead of losing to the first man with a taser they encounter.

If you're referring to the entire regular function of the combat system as abuse then the problem probably isn't with the specific antag we can't just keep giving everyone stun immunity (it'd also take away from the glass cannon aspect if you couldn't slow/stun them and they could always just run back until they found darkness)

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:24 pm**

Most people in the game are done in one taser and this is supposed to be somewhere between traitor and ling in power level so I think its too early to just give them flat stun immunity, or else they're gonna be somewhere approaching wizard or slaughter demon

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:54 pm**

I think you ought to try it while testing.

The big difference between this and wizards/demons/whatever is their escape is 100% conditional on being in the dark.

An assistant with a bola, lights in each slot, and a welding tool (or just give him an improvised shotgun) can beat a nightmare by themselves - it's hardly comparable to something like a wizard or slaughter demon.

As a compromise you could make it so that stuns just deal a flat -30 stamina damage to the Nightmare.

Basically if the aggressive party has enough lights, the Nightmare can only flee on foot and if they try to engage the aggressor they run the risk of being injured (slowed) and wholly incapable of escaping. I don't think stun immunity is unreasonable in that situation, I kind of like it because it puts ordinary crew with makeshift weapons and lots of light on a more even footing with security.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:56 pm**

Oldman Robustin wrote:I think you ought to try it while testing.

The big difference between this and wizards/demons/whatever is their escape is 100% conditional on being in the dark.

An assistant with a bola, lights in each slot, and a welding tool (or just give him an improvised shotgun) can beat a nightmare by themselves - it's hardly comparable to something like a wizard or slaughter demon.
Attacking them once would destroy all lights on them. Then, either kill them or jaunt out!

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:11 am**

With a nonviolent objective I found it to be a really refreshing experience. The moment people resort to immediately attacking it it's going to be a whole different experience, but the fact that I could be chill and have the security be lax with me really changed how everything plays out.

My only request would be to maybe have say a very temporary buff for xray visison to get a quick snapshot of the area around you

Edit: Also I must admit I'm really not a fan of the name of them. Faithless as someone during my round said does sound kinda cool, or maybe Shadow Walker or something

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:13 am**

Give a two second warning period for when a Nightmare enters light, and prevent him moving farther into light, but allow him a brief window to backpedal into darkness. Nightmares do not have turf/object vision, so they will often wind up trapped inside a lit room. Also, I find myself popping up on walls a LOT. If you have a copy of the map open in DM, you can use this to be in position to smash a light as soon as you are forced out of Shadow Walk onto a wall.

Overall, I feel this antag is a little too weak when it comes to snuffing out lights. If you get trapped in a room that is lit by light behind a window, well, it is going to be rough escaping even if nobody finds you!

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:10 pm**

I found the weakness was quite warranted, if how quickly I obliterated a changeling with my not-armblade is anything to go by.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:13 pm**

Well, I retract my earlier objections, then. I am not robust, so I do not know the full potential of the antag, although the not-blade is quite powerful (25 force, 35 armor pen) besides being a light-eater. In my hands, the role is at best an annoying mosquito, but to someone robust, it might be something much more. I guess we should keep it as is and see if it needs adjustment later.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:35 pm**

I'm sure the role can be tweaked and balanced some more, because I'm sure if there's more than one opponent then the poor Nightmare will be overwhelmed. However with the free and useable hand, you could maybe grab an emp grenade and have that at the helm if you expect something bad to happen. It's got the potential to be as robust as a smash-and-dash wizard, but at the same time you can get fucked up so easily.

It very much feels like a fun antagonist to RP as. Even if more than anything it's because people don't know the meta to slam dunk Nightmares yet.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:44 pm**

I'll reiterate that first and foremost there needs to be a way to deal with airlocks/doors, insta-prying seems to be a fair way to make travel reasonable without making them impossible to catch.

I wasn't aware that hitting someone destroyed ALL their lights, I thought it was a one-hit for one-light kind of deal, so I might try to be more aggressive in the future with slapping people when they chase me.

Also I forgot to mention in my first comment: Nightmares should have innate radio, at least common, use whatever logic you need to justify it but it's no fun being the station terror if you can't even hear them getting spooked. Perhaps you don't even need a microphone but playing in pure silence isn't that fun.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:52 pm**

Oldman Robustin wrote: I wasn't aware that hitting someone destroyed ALL their lights, I thought it was a one-hit for one-light kind of deal, so I might try to be more aggressive in the future with slapping people when they chase me.

I'll make sure to clarify that when the role gets actual spawn text. I was actually wondering why you weren't hitting the people pursuing you.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:08 am**

Just got nightmare for a round, it was really fun- some of the best antagonist fun I've had in a while. Feel like they're pretty balanced in their current state. Thanks Kor!

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:15 am**

BeeSting12 wrote:Just got nightmare for a round, it was really fun- some of the best antagonist fun I've had in a while. Feel like they're pretty balanced in their current state. Thanks Kor!

THIS MAN KNOWS.

These things are so fast paced I LOVE THAT ADRENALINEEEEE

giving me shadowling as a gift is one thing

giving me shadowling that is better than the original shadowling is another

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm**

It's almost like codebaby buffs to negate every situation you could encounter was a bad thing and all the game really needed is to let the people lose.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:38 pm**

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:This sounds like a great opportunity to add a Heart of Darkness item for reference sake although I'm not sure what it's functionality would be

Implanting the heart makes you grow the arm blade?

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:55 pm**

Kor wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:This sounds like a great opportunity to add a Heart of Darkness item for reference sake although I'm not sure what it's functionality would be
Implanting the heart makes you grow the arm blade?

That seems a bit unintuitive that the heart controls who wears the blade although I think having the arm blade surgically removed and be given a new host sounds cool af.

perhaps it allows you to cocoon yourself in darkness to slowly heal like cryo would at the cost of leaving you defenseless while it's happening and for a brief period after [just like cryo]. Light will, as you can imagine, end it prematurely.

Sorta like this [IN LOOKS, NOT IN FUNCTIONALITY HOTS PLAYERS!!!]

"but slings don't have this" - no because fluff wise they have all the "dark" organs working symbiotically to produce passive healing in the darkness.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:58 pm**

Oh and give a visual cue on their body that they have the heart in them like Dark Souls curse but BLACK because Fashion soulsStation 13 is a real thing!

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:59 pm**

It wouldn't be the most intuitive no but any organ that comes from a Nightmare would also be useable by the Nightmare and the cocoon ability would be useless to it, so weird for it to have

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:02 pm**

clearly the answer is to give slings a faster healing in darkness with immobilization ability that does exactly this :^)

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:44 pm**

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:clearly the answer is to give slings a faster healing in darkness with immobilization ability that does exactly this :^)

but that's the opposite of how it works

it's a high speed constantly on the move evading darkness glass cannon, why would it have the ability to enter a stasis

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:52 pm**

Would having the shadow jaunt clear stuns be too much? It'd deal with the issue of people beating it down with disarms etc

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:05 pm**

Armhulen wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:clearly the answer is to give slings a faster healing in darkness with immobilization ability that does exactly this :^)
but that's the opposite of how it works

it's a high speed constantly on the move evading darkness glass cannon, why would it have the ability to enter a stasis

Plenty of assassins in mobas which share this style of high mobility play have the ability to get into a stasis to regroup, although some abilities are done more like how our immortality talisman functions.

If they DON'T, they still have the "b" ability.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:14 pm**

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:clearly the answer is to give slings a faster healing in darkness with immobilization ability that does exactly this :^)
but that's the opposite of how it works

it's a high speed constantly on the move evading darkness glass cannon, why would it have the ability to enter a stasis
Plenty of assassins in mobas which share this style of high mobility play have the ability to get into a stasis to regroup, although some abilities are done more like how our immortality talisman functions.

If they DON'T, they still have the "b" ability.

Zul'Jin in HotS is like this, strong damage potiental and self sustain but he is vulnerable while using it as it gets interrupted by damage. Giving nightmare a cocoon would be a nice throwback to shadowlings if I recall? I wasnt around for shadowlings sadly, only before they were implimented and faster they were removed.

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:24 am**

Kor wrote:Would having the shadow jaunt clear stuns be too much? It'd deal with the issue of people beating it down with disarms etc

That might work, but it would need to -not- break restraints. If you got tazed and cuffed but you can escape? You're not getting out of those cuffs too. That way you have the Nightmare loose, but sec/the opponents have maybe 30-60 seconds to find it and catch it, before it gets the cuffs off and can resume.

After playing a round with a second Nightmare, I think maybe a changeling-like hivemind chatter would be very useful. However at the same time, forcing the nightmares to find radios makes it all the more fun. So if you want to communicate with your fellow nightmares, you -need- to blow your cover.

Edit: Another thing I noticed is that until provoked (or if they aren't wanting to hunt you regardless), many assistants and crewmen you encounter often try to help you and side with you. At least until security are after anyone sympathetic to them.

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:34 pm**

possibly unintended consequence of consoles emitting light but nightmares cannot instantly shut off console light/APC lights so they have to break it. maybe hitting it once could shut off the lights for a minute or something?

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:06 pm**

Honestly given how OP it already is I think that could work. You're strong enough to just smash everything anyway.

I was watching normie tv and realised this clip [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfuZ8NCjSAc[/youtube] is Nightmares in a nutshell, replace the clown noises with LOUD ASS JAUNTING and the mace with a flashlight and tazer. Mace could probably work great on nightmares, actually. HIlariously so, even.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:54 pm**

One thing I've noticed watching them that seems a bit unfun is that borgs just stomp them. Landing the first melee hit on the borg turns their light off for 10 seconds, but them landing the first hit on the Nightmare means the Nightmare is dead so the borg can just keep coming back over and over until they die (the borg also has absurd light range so fleeing is difficult)

Should the armblade fry the headlamp until they visit a recharging station? Until a roboticist puts a new flashlight in them? Leave it as is and the nightmare should just grab sunglasses/a flash?

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:58 pm**

Flashes should damage it and teleport it a short distance ce away since its powers pull it away from the concentrated burst of light.

It should also turn off Borg headlamps and do burn damage on them rather than brute.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:42 pm**

The nightmare shouldn't be required to find sunglasses from somewhere to not be hardcountered by borgs

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:49 pm**

Why'd we give borgs stuns again anyway

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:14 pm**

It was more like of making flashes better against humans, in order to make them more popular, so more people will have a counter to borgs with them. It makes total sense when you think about it.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:14 pm**

Kor wrote:Why'd we give borgs stuns again anyway

Because you took away the dedicated stun borg

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:48 pm**

Kor wrote:Why'd we give borgs stuns again anyway

[youtube]x8FNVsbnwWE[/youtube]

Being a harm monitor was not fun to play as.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:52 pm**

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:[youtube]x8FNVsbnwWE[/youtube]

hisscurity is literally made of these

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:28 am**

Kor you bad man, lings can transform sting people into nightmares - I presume they themselves can also turn into nightmares.

I just had a NIGHTMARISH round where 50% of the crew were nightmares, and 100% of the crew were zombies. So we had a fuckload of zombimares.

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:32 am**

Nightmares are actually a species, and you can change yourself with the magic mirror. Which means that a wizard can become a nightmare if he wants, although that would be dumb since then he can't use robed spells

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:55 am**

lumipharon wrote:Kor you bad man, lings can transform sting people into nightmares - I presume they themselves can also turn into nightmares.

I just had a NIGHTMARISH round where 50% of the crew were nightmares, and 100% of the crew were zombies. So we had a fuckload of zombimares.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/30681

Sounds fun!!! as a one off thing though

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:29 am**

I'm fairly certain its baton and cablecuffs got removed

/tg/Station 13

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