/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

One of the main problems I see is the guy just going to the HoP and asking for a new ID.

Yes you can tell the HoP, but more often than not HoP's have too much to remember or something else that prevents that.

Having some kind of system where you can 'blacklist' people so that if the HoP attempts to change their access, it will show a warning detailing why they are blacklisted. Think of it as entering a Security record but any head of staff can do it.

People demoted by heads in the bridge will have the job "Unassigned". Which i figured would be enough of a clue to let the HoP know the guy was fired.

I didn't know that.

Hence why straight up allowing heads of staff to list out why someone's ID was demoted. So when the HoP goes to give the Engineer who 'lost' his ID a new ID, a popup lists that he was demoted by the CE for insubordination.

Incomptinence wrote:Current demotion is such a chore I don't think dumping the responsibility on security even functions

So? They fucked off, big deal. People do that. People who do that often will hopefully get bwoinked.

Firstly, demoting people should not be your priority ANYWAY. Sure, they fucked off, absolutely nothing will change if they're caught. Yeah, they'll be demoted, mad and you can laugh at them. They will then metagrudge you. Meanwhile singuloth is released because you were busy hunting down some jerkface nobody cares about. Just report it to security and go do something that is actually useful. If security doesn't catch them - they did a poor job, not you. If singularity is released because you hunted down an engineer - you did a poor job.

Secondly, to demote you basically just have to remove their ID. If you have a good reason to demote, you don't even have to give it to them as assistant or whatever. Tell HoP that they suck ass and let him deal with that. Now, taking an ID is possible when target is not moving for few seconds. Any device that would go beyond that, in my opinion, would be overpowered or even more useful for antags who steal it. And certainly I don't want heads to chase down retarded people spamming their shiny device, losing it to disarm and enjoying assistant station. Even if it's set not to demote heads, well, good luck having mini-rev when you have no people in your department and myriads of assistants.

Steelpoint wrote:Hence why straight up allowing heads of staff to list out why someone's ID was demoted. So when the HoP goes to give the Engineer who 'lost' his ID a new ID, a popup lists that he was demoted by the CE for insubordination.

Pretty good idea, have a comments section in general record or something. Automatically show it in ID computers.

Well, to just robust and take your underlings IDs seems kind of aggressive, it's never as simple as that. Not to mention the risk of bwoink.

Scott wrote:Not to mention the risk of bwoink.

For what? Seriously, people talk about this in security threads also, did you actually receive bwoink for that?

What I meant by that is that we don't know what policy on demotions is. At least I don't.

I'd rather demotions be kept an IC issue. Literally any reason but grief without cause should be permitted. It's something the players should be able to police themselves.

Scott wrote:What I meant by that is that we don't know what policy on demotions is. At least I don't.

ahelp -> "Urist McAsshole is being a dick, he did X, Y and didn't do Z even though I asked him to. Can I take his ID?"

Ikarrus wrote:I'd rather demotions be kept an IC issue. Literally any reason but grief without cause should be permitted. It's something the players should be able to police themselves.

I'm more curious about retaliations for demotions. Say, I demoted a roboticist and then whole round she tries to hunt me down. May be even succeeds and I end up in maint naked and cuffed. How's that?

I am not gonna do that for every thing I think someone is doing wrong. Heads should be given freedom to run their department as long as it's not a straight up violation of Rule 1. Like I am not gonna demote an engineer for not filling the plasma tanks before putting them in the collectors. I will tell him he fucked up but I'll let him keep being an engineer. I would demote, though, for engineers that do not participate in setting up the engine / solars and just run off with a hardsuit.

That's pretty much what it is in reality. Demoting for not filling tanks would probably be too much (though you most likely would get away with it), but if you specifically told them to do that, it's totally okay. Hitler mode is totally allowed and it's so funny when they complain afterwards.

I mean, disobeying an order is an actual crime now, so...

There comes another problem with demotions though. Many times I tell command that engineer X is no longer an engineer and that he should be arrested for having a stolen hardsuit, command doesn't do anything about it. What can a head really do?

Scott wrote:There comes another problem with demotions though. Many times I tell command that engineer X is no longer an engineer and that he should be arrested for having a stolen hardsuit, command doesn't do anything about it. What can a head really do?

If the rest of command doesn't give a shit, then they get to deal with a literally rogue engineer that they apparently don't care about. Wash your hands.

Scott wrote:There comes another problem with demotions though. Many times I tell command that engineer X is no longer an engineer and that he should be arrested for having a stolen hardsuit, command doesn't do anything about it. What can a head really do?

I like to PDA the warden. Or ask the AI to add stuff to update the security records. Or find an officer in person.

leibniz wrote:

Scott wrote:There comes another problem with demotions though. Many times I tell command that engineer X is no longer an engineer and that he should be arrested for having a stolen hardsuit, command doesn't do anything about it. What can a head really do?

I like to PDA the warden. Or ask the AI to add stuff to update the security records. Or find an officer in person.

Though its more of an issue with security in general. I find they're fairly unresponsive to even PDA messages. No matter what they're about. Hell, I watched a cult one round setting up runes and shit, PDA'd the HoS who said "on my way" and then never appeared. To which point I was then talismaned and converted and ended up looting the entire armory. This is the same security that will brig you without a word of response or even accusal. Its like something about security just makes people unable to speak in non-security radio channels or even (and especially) face-to-face

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Scott wrote:What I meant by that is that we don't know what policy on demotions is. At least I don't.

ahelp -> "Urist McAsshole is being a dick, he did X, Y and didn't do Z even though I asked him to. Can I take his ID?"

You're still talking like "taking an ID" is just as simple as that. A security officer, engineer, cargo tech or any underling who just barges out and doesn't report via radio is next to impossible to find. Even more so if you tell him that he's going to get demoted if he's not reporting in. And if you do find them, they will retaliate in any way they can because they think they've got nothing to lose.

To reduce this kind of dick behavior without making it a huge fuss for a) admins or b) you + security team + HoP, a remote system of any sort would be ideal.

Enforcing people to play a certain way (to obey orders) can be achieved through administration, but that feels way too uptight. Which is why I'm all up for an IC way of enforcing.

cedarbridge wrote: Though its more of an issue with security in general. I find they're fairly unresponsive to even PDA messages. No matter what they're about. Hell, I watched a cult one round setting up runes and shit, PDA'd the HoS who said "on my way" and then never appeared. To which point I was then talismaned and converted and ended up looting the entire armory. This is the same security that will brig you without a word of response or even accusal. Its like something about security just makes people unable to speak in non-security radio channels or even (and especially) face-to-face

Yes there, its called being completely overwhelmed by shit heels

Security is a busy job with lots of legwork and combat as is and the game is designed to be borderline unmanageable for them. I just thought it would be more reasonable and empowering to heads to actually be able to administrate their department without officer gear donations than waving security around like a cure all wand (actually a stick).

kosmos wrote:You're still talking like "taking an ID" is just as simple as that. A security officer, engineer, cargo tech or any underling who just barges out and doesn't report via radio is next to impossible to find. Even more so if you tell him that he's going to get demoted if he's not reporting in. And if you do find them, they will retaliate in any way they can because they think they've got nothing to lose.

I'm talking like "taking an ID" is as simple as that if you have a person in front of you that you want gone.

Holy shit, I just posted a big ramble about how you shouldn't care about people who fuck off. Go read it.

kosmos wrote:To reduce this kind of dick behavior without making it a huge fuss for a) admins or b) you + security team + HoP, a remote system of any sort would be ideal.

Not only a remote system of any sort would be overpowered, easily abused, create a huge number of situations that are hard for admins to deal with, so they will just go all "IC issue", which will help nobody but assholes, but it will also be completely fucking useless for its purpose.

Okay, you removed access from their ID. So what? Now you have an assistant full in security gear that will want to hunt you down. Or you will have an engineer with that precious hardsuit who's not gonna watch singularity and just took off with all the metal you had. Great, you will keep them out of engineering. He's probably not even gonna care about it. May be he was just busy setting up solars, missed your call, or was afk and you just ruined his ID with your amazing remote fucking system, which is ideal, now he's pissed off and instead of setting solars he's wrecking wiring all over the place. No wonder - you locked him inside maintenance with no way out with your ideal system.

If you want to help heads demote, give them disablers or something. I can predict another ideal system though - teleporting all items from the person, leaving them absolutely naked. Demotions are so easy now!

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Holy shit, I just posted a big ramble about how you shouldn't care about people who fuck off. Go read it.

The thread is named "Heads of Staff and Security: They're a fucking joke". We're trying to solve a problem about underlings not obeying authority (a.k.a. fucking off), and your solution is "just don't care about them"?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Not only a remote system of any sort would be overpowered, easily abused, create a huge number of situations that are hard for admins to deal with, so they will just go all "IC issue", which will help nobody but assholes, but it will also be completely fucking useless for its purpose.

Neither of us can be sure about these, but I'm fairly certain about these claims, but I'm pretty sure the last time the game had a major change in balance (AI eye introduction or such) there were similar claims. My point being: it can all be balanced out. It would be rough, but it would add a huge dynamic to the game, maybe even making head jobs something people would actually want to play.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Okay, you removed access from their ID. So what? Now you have an assistant full in security gear that will want to hunt you down. Or you will have an engineer with that precious hardsuit who's not gonna watch singularity and just took off with all the metal you had. Great, you will keep them out of engineering. He's probably not even gonna care about it. May be he was just busy setting up solars, missed your call, or was afk and you just ruined his ID with your amazing remote fucking system, which is ideal, now he's pissed off and instead of setting solars he's wrecking wiring all over the place. No wonder - you locked him inside maintenance with no way out with your ideal system.

I was talking about leverage earlier. Remote demotion would be the last resort punishment, not some thing a head would do instantly. Right now the heads have absolutely no leverage, "I-I'll report you to sec if you don't report to engineering this instant...". No one gives a shit. This system would be precautionary for those kinds of situations, no one wants their access taken away, encouraging people to not fuck off in the first place.

And what's making it ideal in my eyes is because it's one of the rare ideas which does NOT depend on the player being robust (more like having less than 0.1 ping) like every other thing in the game. Give the demotion gun or disabler to the guy who wants to be a head but has a lousy internet connection, it'll end up being worthless to him.

kosmos wrote:it can all be balanced out

This is useless without concrete examples. I will tell you that it cannot be balanced and we're equally stuck.

kosmos wrote:The thread is named "Heads of Staff and Security: They're a fucking joke". We're trying to solve a problem about underlings not obeying authority (a.k.a. fucking off), and your solution is "just don't care about them"?

Yes.

kosmos wrote:I was talking about leverage earlier. Remote demotion would be the last resort punishment, not some thing a head would do instantly.

And you are going to ensure that... how?

kosmos wrote:"I-I'll report you to sec if you don't report to engineering this instant...". No one gives a shit.

Either security is bad or too busy with stuff that actually matters. Neither is your problem.

kosmos wrote:This system would be precautionary for those kinds of situations, no one wants their access taken away, encouraging people to not fuck off in the first place.

Assistant - a job with almost no access - is one of the most popular jobs out there.

kosmos wrote:And what's making it ideal in my eyes is because it's one of the rare ideas which does NOT depend on the player being robust (more like having less than 0.1 ping) like every other thing in the game.

>ignoring a huge list of problems it comes with because "we can balance it"

kosmos wrote:Give the demotion gun or disabler to the guy who wants to be a head but has a lousy internet connection, it'll end up being worthless to him.

Since when does design have to depend on something like that?

Incomptinence wrote:Security is a busy job with lots of legwork and combat as is and the game is designed to be borderline unmanageable for them. I just thought it would be more reasonable and empowering to heads to actually be able to administrate their department without officer gear donations than waving security around like a cure all wand (actually a stick).

If we're going to go down "muh realisms" road. Demotions almost always end peacefully (canned dude hands in his badge and leaves under threat of security/police) or by force (involving actual security/police.) So this is pretty true to form.

To the person complaining about needing to balance for poor internet connections...

Fuck off. Literally, there is no need to balance for that. You want to know why? First off, no other game needs it and SS13 doesn't need it. Balancing for poor internet connections can't work unless you throttle good internet users and bring everyone to the same speed. No game needs it because it would ruin the game for everyone. Secondly, the game is already pretty damn balanced for poor internet users. I have somewhere between .5 second to 1 second of lag regularly and I still manage to play a semi-competent security or assistant in this game. Here's a little tip, if you ever need to stun baton someone or flash someone or anything like that, click on their character where it is. When he's running at you and you're running at him, it'll proc by the time you get together. The same goes for guns. Don't just blast your tasers down hallways expecting to hit someone, fucking click on them like a decently abled human being. Nothing is stopping you except just being shitty with a mouse. I still win fist fights and everything with shitty connections and touchpads. If you can't, that just means you need to get good.

You could also PM your angry off topic rants.

cedarbridge wrote: If we're going to go down "muh realisms" road. Demotions almost always end peacefully (canned dude hands in his badge and leaves under threat of security/police) or by force (involving actual security/police.) So this is pretty true to form.

The only problem with that though is that usually only happens in movies and TV and such. When the loose cannon cop who doesn't play by the rules gets canned, he doesn't start whining like a little kid and refuses to hand over his badge, that would make bad television. However, this isn't a crime drama, this is a game about 2D spacemen, and players are under no obligation to act like they're part of a soap opera so naturally the first response to a head who tells you to hand over your ID is "fuck off, shitler"

In any case, that's an RP issue, but the fact still stands that heads need a heavy hand to discipline their subordinates because immaturity (which isn't always a bad thing, by the way, immaturity is part of what makes this game fun) is considered normal behavior.

Reimoo wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: If we're going to go down "muh realisms" road. Demotions almost always end peacefully (canned dude hands in his badge and leaves under threat of security/police) or by force (involving actual security/police.) So this is pretty true to form.

The only problem with that though is that usually only happens in movies and TV and such. When the loose cannon cop who doesn't play by the rules gets canned, he doesn't start whining like a little kid and refuses to hand over his badge, that would make bad television. However, this isn't a crime drama, this is a game about 2D spacemen, and players are under no obligation to act like they're part of a soap opera so naturally the first response to a head who tells you to hand over your ID is "fuck off, shitler"

In any case, that's an RP issue, but the fact still stands that heads need a heavy hand to discipline their subordinates because immaturity (which isn't always a bad thing, by the way, immaturity is part of what makes this game fun) is considered normal behavior.

My point wasn't clear. I'm not saying that people in spessmans are going to behave for a demotion when they wouldn't behave to earn it in the first place. I'm saying that security involvement is a given in both the real world and in spessmans demotions. Security complaining they have to get involved is silly and childish. Its literally their job.

Yeah I am sure it is realistic to remotely remove a particular access cards' permissions in real life thanks to computers. Also passwords but would remotely locking people in be a good mechanic? More to demoting someone than old cop show tropes and I WILL CALL THE POLICE!

Scott wrote:You could also PM your angry off topic rants.

It was on topic the moment someone tried using it to justify some abortion of an idea.

Raven776 wrote:

Scott wrote:You could also PM your angry off topic rants.

It was on topic the moment someone tried using it to justify some abortion of an idea.

That was probably my post. I'm sorry if it made you upset, that wasn't my intention. I'll be honest and rephrase my statement:
It would be nice if the game was balanced out for unrobust people (like me, I won't deny it) who can't click on things that quickly. I usually blame it on the lag but I aknowledge that I'm also fucking slow.

The problem is that I also like to play help out on the station with the uncommon but essential roles if they're not taken, like Chief Engineer, Sec Officer, Warden and occasionally Head of Security and to me it's a pity that those roles require robustness a.k.a. clicking quickly. I'm also fairly certain I'm not the only one who thinks like this.

From my point of view, the remote system would enable more unrobust people (but who are still good managers/organizers) to manage in the head roles.

If you're unrobust why are you playing a head role?

Reimoo wrote:If you're unrobust why are you playing a head role?

That feels like a weird question, robustness shouldn't be a requirement for being a boss. As I said, I like to help the station out where it's lacking the most and I also like to manage, organize and take responsibility and wish to learn how to be a good boss in-game and irl.

Delicious wrote:Just buff heads of staff and security and add rules against griefing them.

There doesn't need to be rules against "griefing heads of staff" because you shouldn't be doing that to anybody anyway.
Giving them any more power or toys will just encourage that kind of behavior so they can steal those toys.

I've always been in favor of Command/Security whitelisting, even if it's just a multiple choice test from a button. Time-based, maybe.
Don't care, just something to curb the influx of unrobust people in positions that require some degree of robustness.

Normally i'm against that but getting ahelps from the CE about "how do i fill up my oxygen tank" really gets to me.

Saegrimr wrote:There doesn't need to be rules against "griefing heads of staff" because you shouldn't be doing that to anybody anyway.
Giving them any more power or toys will just encourage that kind of behavior so they can steal those toys.

This is an interesting point. I bet being silicon would be a lot more of a hassle if greytiders could steal their powers somehow. What kind of non-stealable toys could heads (and maybe security) be given?

Arete wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:There doesn't need to be rules against "griefing heads of staff" because you shouldn't be doing that to anybody anyway.
Giving them any more power or toys will just encourage that kind of behavior so they can steal those toys.

This is an interesting point. I bet being silicon would be a lot more of a hassle if greytiders could steal their powers somehow. What kind of non-stealable toys could heads (and maybe security) be given?

There are no non-stealable toys. None, at all. For anyone.

Arete wrote:What kind of non-stealable toys could heads (and maybe security) be given?

Biometrics like DNA locks (which exist on mechs) and fingerprint scanners could always be a thing, and also give changelings another level of believability when transforming.
The question is where would this apply?

Whitelisting head roles is a bad idea because there are already too few people willing to play heads of staff as it is.

Reimoo wrote:Whitelisting head roles is a bad idea because there are already too few people willing to play heads of staff as it is.

Basically this. I'm not sure if it applies to non-captain roles, but all head roles should be set to a minimum player age. We agelock Captain and AI and even borgs. RD, CE, etc should not be immune. Hell, if it were possible to track "rounds this ckey has rolled this role/department" and then simply required X number of rounds in that department before allowing them to roll for the head of that department I'd be down. Ensures that the player actually has some time in the department and knows what the fuck.

cedarbridge wrote:Hell, if it were possible to track "rounds this ckey has rolled this role/department" and then simply required X number of rounds in that department before allowing them to roll for the head of that department I'd be down. Ensures that the player actually has some time in the department and knows what the fuck.

Ideal.

The only people who don't want this are unrobust scrubs. What are you afraid of huh?

Heads of staff are something nobody wants to play because there's no reason to play them. If they had telebatons they'd be played more, though.

paprika wrote:If they had telebatons they'd be played more, though.

This, flashes are lame.

paprika wrote:If they had telebatons they'd be played more, though.

Ironically, they'd be played more but mostly played more by people that shouldn't be playing them. Head roles are already often occupied by people who don't know what the fuck. I mean, its great that we want to see head roles filled more and more often, but we also need to attract players to those roles that actually lead their departments instead of just lord a title over it or abuse the extra access.

I've noticed that the CMO has the best scrub to gud ratio, while the HoS has the worst. Contrast their relative equipment - Compared to MDs, the CMO has some more access (Chem,Gen,Viro), a hypospray, and a blue labcoat to mark his authority. Compared to Sec Officers, the HoS has the armory, an egun, his choice of the best armors in the game, and the ability to remove people from the round.

One position has to work for their authority, the other has it handed to them on a plate.

Not to mention that historically good players tend to stop playing in Security roles and more onto other station roles. Meaning, anecdotally, your average Security personnel would be less skilled than your average non-Officer.

In addition, the HoS has a lot of responsibility and OOC restrictions, the CMO does not.

RD gets a flash and a knitted vest - I've yet to see one that id consider robust (riding around in a milspec mech doesn't count)

Also the hos's coat isn't that good, it has the same energy resistance as any other armor which means they're just as fucked as anyone else when it comes to stuns

Personally I would be all for upping the energy protection of Armour, and the HoS's Armour.

I don't know how I'd feel about this. It shouldn't be the armor that makes the man.

I just wish I saw less HoS's go straight for hulk the moment it was out.

Hulk's not as good in some circumstances.

For study. By default stun times are around 10 seconds (From Tasers and similar). With the current armour values anyone wearing one will be stunned for 9 seconds instead.

Raven776 wrote:I don't know how I'd feel about this. It shouldn't be the armor that makes the man.

I just wish I saw less HoS's go straight for hulk the moment it was out.

Steelpoint wrote:Personally I would be all for upping the energy protection of Armour, and the HoS's Armour.

The reason Ablative is so dominant is that, despite the stun rework, SS13 combat is still stun-based. That is, a Security Officer and an Assistant have exactly the same staying power; Whoever gets tased first, loses. Whoever bops who with a stunprod first, wins. Most armor provides damage reduction - Damage reduction means shit-all if somebody is actively trying to fight you, and doublefuck-all if you're stunned. In terms of meaningful protection, everything except Ablative and Shield might as well be a fashion statement.
Helmet/Armor protects you from being toolboxed. The problem is, toolboxing is the finish, not the fight. The follow-up, not the deciding moment.

If there's some way to implement stun resistance, be it armor soaking some stuns altogether, armor reducing overall stun time, whatever you want, it should do that. Damage reduction means fuckall when getting hit is what counts.

The reason HoS's beeline for Hulk is because Hulk provided complete immunity to all forms of knockdown. A stun will neutralize a combatant in one hit, compared to a lasgun's five, a toolbox/egun/welder/saw's seven...you get the idea. As long as stuns neutralize a combatant faster than lethals, stuns will be the deciding factor in combat and the primary weapon in anybody's arsenal.