/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

The game mode is inherently incompatible with the /tg/ station player base. Expecting security players not to valid let alone just not detain people who are obviously antagonists just doesn't work here. Letting security players join the gangs turns it into opt-out TDM, and not letting sec join the gangs would lead to the same problem as old gangs. It's just gangs with the ability to opt-out (it's not really opt-in when it's the only interesting thing happening in the round and it's completely self contained).

As a random example, let's say that one gang is trying to steal something from any random place. While you might think people would try to keep them out and call security and have a nice organic conflict of that sort, what actually happens is that either the people inside the place are on the people trying to steal's team, and they get the item for free, or they're on someone else's team, and they get murdered and spaced. There isn't really an obligation not to join, as I see it.

Another big issue is that it's really not obvious who is on who's team, which leads to a lot of misery and admin problems in a variety of situations.

Anyway, that's basically the impression I got after observing ~2.5 rounds of it. I doubt you'll consider that "feedback" because I'm basically saying the idea is hopeless, so here's some other feedback:
The gangs need admin combo HUD icons. You could make the icon a number, 1,2, and 3 for each gang respectively.
The ending of the round is anti-climactic and boring. The game mode in general lacks clear goals so the round doesn't really progress.

I really don't see how this is a roleplay game mode when there is no penalty for joining a gang and anyone on a different gang is valid.

I did not have fun with this mode. My suggestions:

1. Voluntary signups are okay, but there needs to be incentives not to join a gang. I don't have any good ideas for this. By default you should be on security's team or a neutral team with the goal to keep the station in good condition and keep as much of the station alive as possible, no matter what the side. Probably the latter.

2. There needs to be a way to identify friendly/hostile gangsters. A HUD would be best, but I can tell you don't like that design so I won't bother suggesting it. I was thinking tattoos on your chest which are concealed with your jumpsuit on so people can tell with clothes stripped, but disguises are still viable. Printable lists with every gang member on it from the signup points (I was thinking about having it sprited as a console). They'll let you know for sure while also taking time to consult, and the gameplay of stealing them off other gangsters for intel.

3. Suspension of rule four is ridiculous. Add mechanical incentives to not kill people. ie, massive exponential point loss for killing innocents, gang v gang and gang v sec should always be allowed and incentivised. Code solutions are nearly always better than policy solutions. The less policy associated with a mode, the less complicated for admins and players.

Escalation policy between gangs, sec, and other gangs needs to just go entirely. Signing up for a gang is a crime in and of itself (Enemy of the Corporation). Gangs should not have to piss each other off to fight each other when they're already fighting over the same turf. Policy against innocents is kinda iffy, I'm against it but I want mechanical incentives not to in place of it. This also kinda goes under an incentive not to join a gang. Why would I not join a gang if I'm OOCly protected no matter what?

4. As Subject217 said, the ending sucks. Find something more climactic, Robustin did a good job with this on cult so maybe a huge end round battle over the shuttle or something.

5. Needs more point generation: The gang signup points should have a console to buy stuff use to generate more points, but that stuff also has requirements that need to be fulfilled.

Examples:
Punishment Killing- Put a rival gang member on a stake and display it in a specific room given to you when you buy that object.

Drug Processor- Put controlled substances in here to gain points. Gives incentives to recruit various departments such as botany and chemistry. Huge maintenance drug labs would be pretty cool.

Weapons Factories- Feed it metal and glass to make stetchkins and uzis depending on the level. These are naturally expensive to make and the weapons are expensive to produce, hopefully putting a soft cap on the amount of guns in one round + making it late game content. Guns can be sold on the black market for big bucks.

Counterfeit Machine- Feed it paper and pens, get counterfeit money to be sold on the blackmarket. Kind of low level point generation.

Hacking Machines- Place in the same room as the enemy gang signup points to start slowly siphoning their points to you. Gives a huge alert to the enemy gang when this happens.

6. Make security the fourth gang with the goal of protecting innocents. They get mega point losses for killing innocents. Their points would be calculated something like:

(living innocents and security)/total living and nondetained crew

Additionally, imprisoned gangsters count for an unholy amount compared to a dead one. Imprisoned being defined as in permabrig, a timed cell, or gulag.

Confiscating contraband gives security points, but usually not enough to offset murderboning the crew.

There will need to be some (a lot of) tweaking to make sure security has a chance of staying competitive with enemy gangs because their methods of point generation are so different.

Anyway thats my actual good faith feedback on the mode goof. It will fail in its current state and I don't even know if it'll be good with these changes, but those are the best improvements I can think of to make it bearable if we HAVE to keep it

Nalzul wrote:A few QoL changes that I feel would make the game mode a lot more enjoyable for everyone.

Security cannot join gangs.
Negative. Same with the below. I've seen interesting scenarios already happen with Security and heads being able to either join up or take sides. We've had corrupt cops, we've had cops betray other cops for their gang, we've had cops stopping other cops from murdering gangsters, it's produced interesting gameplay. If we make them completely unable to join up, they'll be left with "do we wait to arrest the gangsters until they act up or do we just arrest and murder them all"
Heads cannot join gangs.
Same as above.

Make 3 random person with a job not listed above into the Godfather (or whatever).
Not having a leader/economy for the gang is part of the core design.

Give an icon (like cultists/revs] for people in your gang.
That's a negative, sorry. This would completely kill paranoia and I don't want there to be any way to confirm a gang member for certain. A key of this gamemode is there is no absolutes. No absolute valids, no absolute confirmations.

Allow items to be bought from your signup point using points.
This is part of what turned gang into a murderfest before. There's nothing I can give them that will be unique that isn't weapons or cosmetic.

A HUD element shows up on people on your turf, which means they're a gang member and become valid.
Same issue with huds mentioned before.

Murdering civilians and gang members that aren't on your turf deducts points from your gang.
Due to how weapons and damage work, I can't reasonably figure out who killed who.

Points are displayed on the status tab.
This can be done, I'll look into it.

subject217 wrote:The game mode is inherently incompatible with the /tg/ station player base. Expecting security players not to valid let alone just not detain people who are obviously antagonists just doesn't work here.

It only doesn't work because you keep denying it. It can work. You have to learn to adapt. Get good, basically.
I keep noticing people just say "its incompatible, it just doesn't work". And quite frankly, you need to trust in your players. They can learn to not just valid-salad immediately. Tough shit, maybe it'll take awhile. But they'll learn.

mikeike545 wrote:Giving people the option to become antags in this game and then expecting 'roleplay' is the worst thing I've possibly ever heard in my life. Sure, if this was more 'roleplay' heavy, maybe. But even then, imagine asking a janitor if he'd like to keep his boring job or go out and fight another gang. I wonder what he'll choose unless he's the most boring pedestrian user.

If people are having fun, they're having fun. That's all I care about.

BeeSting12 wrote:I did not have fun with this mode. My suggestions:

1. Voluntary signups are okay, but there needs to be incentives not to join a gang. I don't have any good ideas for this. By default you should be on security's team or a neutral team with the goal to keep the station in good condition and keep as much of the station alive as possible, no matter what the side. Probably the latter.
Provide a reason for there being incentives to NOT join a gang. Why should security be an independent team? I'm trying to break away from the cliches of conversion modes here, and one of those is "security is always the good guys". Get over it.

2. There needs to be a way to identify friendly/hostile gangsters.
No. Part of the core design of this gamemode is there are no certainties, no set in stone tells, no hardcoded antag checks.

3. Suspension of rule four is ridiculous.
You very clearly didn't read anything in the thread. Please go back and use your eyeballs. You can get over not being able to max-cap the station, especially seeing as rule 4 is not suspended because these are not lone antags.


Escalation policy between gangs, sec, and other gangs needs to just go entirely. Signing up for a gang is a crime in and of itself (Enemy of the Corporation). Gangs should not have to piss each other off to fight each other when they're already fighting over the same turf.


4. As Subject217 said, the ending sucks. Find something more climactic, Robustin did a good job with this on cult so maybe a huge end round battle over the shuttle or something.

Spoiler:

I've got plans in regards to the Space Cops.

5. Needs more point generation: The gang signup points should have a console to buy stuff use to generate more points, but that stuff also has requirements that need to be fulfilled.
Buying stuff would require me to either give them weapons(encouraging murder, which I distinctly recall saying is NOT THE POINT), or cosmetics, which is pointless, even if it's visually cool, since we already give free access to everything with the many many many costume vendors.

Buying special machines? Sure, that's a good idea.

Examples:
Punishment Killing- Put a rival gang member on a stake and display it in a specific room given to you when you buy that object.

Drug Processor- Put controlled substances in here to gain points. Gives incentives to recruit various departments such as botany and chemistry. Huge maintenance drug labs would be pretty cool.
This is on the todo list, yes.

Weapons Factories- Feed it metal and glass to make stetchkins and uzis depending on the level. These are naturally expensive to make and the weapons are expensive to produce, hopefully putting a soft cap on the amount of guns in one round + making it late game content. Guns can be sold on the black market for big bucks.
You have access to plenty of weapons, use what you have on the station already.

Counterfeit Machine- Feed it paper and pens, get counterfeit money to be sold on the blackmarket. Kind of low level point generation.
I have sprites for this and am figuring out a implementation method.

Hacking Machines- Place in the same room as the enemy gang signup points to start slowly siphoning their points to you. Gives a huge alert to the enemy gang when this happens.
This is a good idea but I'm iffy about it. I'll think about it.

6. Make security the fourth gang with the goal of protecting innocents. They get mega point losses for killing innocents. Their points would be calculated something like:
Nope. If security is a gang, Security will be a gang just like the other gangs, no special snowflake "forced good guy". And currently, they function better as civvies, since they have weapons access. See the rest of this post for details.

Something that needs to die is "security = good guys, anything else = bad guys" mentality. This is not the way you need to be thinking when it comes to this mode. I know it's hard to break out of the box, but think outside it a bit.

There needs to be incentives to not join a gang because children play this server and they might get the wrong idea from it and join a gang irl.
anyway i dont see this being successful if you continue with this whole "suspend rule 4" thing. two soon to be headmins dont appear to like it much so i doubt it will be put in rotation either if its merged

BeeSting12 wrote:There needs to be incentives to not join a gang because children play this server and they might get the wrong idea from it and join a gang irl.

Spoiler:

sorry i cant right any more good feedback so im shitposting.

anyway i dont see this being successful if you continue with this whole "suspend rule 4" thing. two soon to be headmins dont appear to like it much so i doubt it will be put in rotation either if its merged

Rule 4 isn't suspended. Rule 4 says "lone antagonists". These aren't lone antagonists. And tough shit, it'll be in rotation, and I'm going to make sure it's in rotation.

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

inb4 they have no prior cause xD

yea we already know theyre gonna be tagging shit and fighting people

Can you prove how bombing the station to nothing is a fun and exciting gameplay aspect in a 30 minute round? Because this restriction was put in place after one of those soon-to-be headmins said that free will was a bad idea here.

i think bombing the station is harmful to your team

iamgoofball wrote:I keep noticing people just say "its incompatible, it just doesn't work". And quite frankly, you need to trust in your players. They can learn to not just valid-salad immediately. Tough shit, maybe it'll take awhile. But they'll learn.

The thing is that no other game mode is enforced like this really (except to some extent the completely absent internal affairs agents). Expecting players to be in full validhunt murdermode almost all of the time then happen to turn it off when one game mode happens is wholly unrealistic.

BeeSting12 wrote:i think bombing the station is harmful to your team

Then people need to be getting dinged for bombing the station under this rule, because rule 4 isn't suspended.

However, betraying your team and switching sides is perfectly okay, since it's an intended mechanic, before you even try it.

subject217 wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:I keep noticing people just say "its incompatible, it just doesn't work". And quite frankly, you need to trust in your players. They can learn to not just valid-salad immediately. Tough shit, maybe it'll take awhile. But they'll learn.

The thing is that no other game mode is enforced like this really (except to some extent the completely absent internal affairs agents). Expecting players to be in full validhunt murdermode almost all of the time then happen to turn it off when one game mode happens is wholly unrealistic.

Quite frankly, I think it's a breath of fresh air that we have a gamemode that is not 100% validhunt murdermode. If our players are in 100% validhunt murdermode all the time, we've fucked up as game designers.

iamgoofball wrote:Something that needs to die is "security = good guys, anything else = bad guys" mentality. This is not the way you need to be thinking when it comes to this mode. I know it's hard to break out of the box, but think outside it a bit.

But...then...you don't want sec to just go out and beat people up...? Just remove security from this mode.

Lumbermancer wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:Something that needs to die is "security = good guys, anything else = bad guys" mentality. This is not the way you need to be thinking when it comes to this mode. I know it's hard to break out of the box, but think outside it a bit.

But...then...you don't want sec to just go out and beat people up...? Just remove security from this mode.

I'm considering it. I'm iffy about it, though, because security being able to intervene makes emergent gameplay

But security is civvies, and you want civvies not to get involved unless gangs start shit with you.

Only families match I played was latejoin when station was burned down to the ground, so I lack first hand experience.

Lumbermancer wrote:But security is civvies, and you want civvies not to get involved unless gangs start shit with you.

Only families match I played was latejoin when station was burned down to the ground, so I lack first hand experience.

I'd say it's fair for civvies to get involved if fellow civvies are getting fucked up by gangs. Just depends on how loyal you are to the other civvies.

its a fun exteneded gamemode where you can just go do whatever or rp as ganger

i think sec should just act as sec officer instead of valid hunters during this gamemode "like extended" did ganger muder people? arrest did ganger break into the armory? arrest did civvie kill a ganger? arrest are the GSF assaulting brig? commit genocide
so like:
gang vs gang : valid
civvie vs gang : consinger gang as a colored greytider is he valid by escalation/space law/ adminpm? then he is valid

i m not sure about hard time limits like 1h or 30 min as they are never good maybe give admins special bottons to change the timer, summon swat teams, space cops, weapons of mass destruction

for ppl complaining that acting as primitive tribalist is too much rp for /tg/ i think u should reconsider your definition of rp

make make shit like hand tele sellable to gang singup points so you have a reason to go steal stuff

iamgoofball wrote:And tough shit, it'll be in rotation, and I'm going to make sure it's in rotation.

You should probably clarify what you mean by this before people take it the wrong way.

I wasn't present for both rounds yesterday (I was online but AFK for the second round), but so far my impression of the mode is that it's drones all over again, where intent of the author conflicts too heavily with how the game is actually played.

It may be it'll settle with further test rounds as people grow accustomed to it, but I'm wary of any mode that needs rules modifications out of the gate. All our modes accrue them to some extent as policy discussions happen, but I'm worried about having a mode that changes so much about how you deal with others, the roles of departments, etc.

It disadvantages new players who end up in this mode, and it makes a pretty major administrative headache in having to hammer these mode-specific alterations to the rules/playstyle into people.

I'm keeping an open mind and look forward to what updates/changes are coming to the round.

Arianya wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:And tough shit, it'll be in rotation, and I'm going to make sure it's in rotation.

You should probably clarify what you mean by this before people take it the wrong way.

I wasn't present for both rounds yesterday (I was online but AFK for the second round), but so far my impression of the mode is that it's drones all over again, where intent of the author conflicts too heavily with how the game is actually played.

It may be it'll settle with further test rounds as people grow accustomed to it, but I'm wary of any mode that needs rules modifications out of the gate. All our modes accrue them to some extent as policy discussions happen, but I'm worried about having a mode that changes so much about how you deal with others, the roles of departments, etc.

It disadvantages new players who end up in this mode, and it makes a pretty major administrative headache in having to hammer these mode-specific alterations to the rules/playstyle into people.

I'm keeping an open mind and look forward to what updates/changes are coming to the round.

As I've said before, if our players can't operate at anything but 100% validhunt, then we need to teach them to tone it down sometimes.

15:49 < Iamgoofball> Antur, do we have a clean way to disable/enable jobs
15:50 < Iamgoofball> im gonna disable security during Families to just avoid the mess

There we have it. My hope of this mode turns to dust.

If you have to scrap an entire department to make the game mode work there is something seriously wrong with it.

Rustledjimm wrote:

15:49 < Iamgoofball> Antur, do we have a clean way to disable/enable jobs
15:50 < Iamgoofball> im gonna disable security during Families to just avoid the mess

There we have it. My hope of this mode turns to dust.

If you have to scrap an entire department to make the game mode work there is something seriously wrong with it.

What the fuck? You've been asking and demanding "remove security, change security, make security a gang", so I'm going to try out a different method and see how it plays? Like, you know, how the entire development process has been for this gamemode? Can you calm down and think before doomscreeching?

modedit: removed pointless whining about admin conspiracies

mod edit: removed

not really feedback on the mode but how the fuck do you expect this to get a) merged and b) into rotation if you refuse to take feedback and instead just screech roleplay and the playerbase will adapt. youve been doing this for almost two pages despite multiple people telling you it won't work.

this post is still correct though. not really feedback on the mode but how the fuck do you expect this to get a) merged and b) into rotation if you refuse to take feedback and instead just screech roleplay and the playerbase will adapt. youve been doing this for almost two pages despite multiple people telling you it won't work.

I've addressed the actual feedback. People telling me the playerbase doesn't adapt to new things forget that we got them to adapt to goonchem ports

Disabling sec roles to make gangs work is an old chestnut but then there's the problem of leaving an undefended cache of guns and gear so whoever loots it first wins. This is why Robustin was forced to make the entire brig disappear at roundstart in addition of disabling the jobs.

Gotta ask goofball, how much shitty valids and people making the rounds bad on purpose out of spite are you willing to tolerate before you concede that the /tg/ playerbase can't handle this? I think the idea is really damn cool and what I wanted from the original gang mode but I really think there is merit to the idea that people just love their mindless clicker killing too much to engage in anything at all that doesn't involve valid kills or winning.

Rustledjimm wrote:

15:49 < Iamgoofball> Antur, do we have a clean way to disable/enable jobs
15:50 < Iamgoofball> im gonna disable security during Families to just avoid the mess

There we have it. My hope of this mode turns to dust.

If you have to scrap an entire department to make the game mode work there is something seriously wrong with it.

This is one of the many reasons gang mode was scrapped. Robustin resorted to BLOWING UP SECURITY AT ROUND START to try and make his shitty TDM game mode work.

This is clearly based on goonstation gang mode and it has the same problem, and only worked with serious admin oversight that cant really work on /tg/.

So unless you hard code incentives to keep people alive for sec there is no reason for them to do so and they will murder anyone in a gang uniform. Consider giving sec the goal of keeping a percentage of the crew alive so the cops can pad their arrest statistics and give sec greentext, they might consider NOT commiting summary execution.

This version of gang has the distinct advantage of not being a shitty conversion mode as well as not handing out murderboner weapons for peanuts. It just needs incentives to encourage not murdery gameplay.

Goofball
You need any spriting work done?

iksyp wrote:

Lazengann wrote:Remove the armory but make a new job called "Gun Dealer"

he can spawn guns for space credits at his whim but can only buy some in bulk shipments
also if any of his stuff gets stolen and no one goes to the comms console to send the message "raid" the person who stole it gets banned

add this

You know what would be a good thing to do considering how some headmins in the election wanted this one particular thing that is in this gamemode? Not ending all testing of this immediately because this can help us see if roleplay can work. The most I've seen get done to bring back rp was literally 'you can't be called this or else we'll fucking ban you.' Goofball is literally doing more to bring back roleplay than most of what I have seen or can even remember. RP events are nice and all however that's not bringing back rp. That's just a dedicated event.

Also, as far as I know, only one other person has made a gamemode and that was fucking Carbonhell, i think, who is a hippie headmin. Goofball is not stealing shit if no one else is taking the opportunity. Also, you're not Naksu. If you think Goof is trying to get a quick crashgrab then voice your concerns, sure, however you don't get to make the end decision. Naksu is the arbiter of whether or not the gamemode is fine and its his money. If Naksu thinks 'eh, I think it is a good gamemode' then that's it.

Not every gamemode has to be special anyways and the idea is gangs. Not a cult worshipping a god, not a bunch of trained soldiers going to war, nor is it the devil coming down to ss13 because he's looking for a soul to steal. At best, Goof can make some machines and cosmetics. Not a lot compared to the other gamemodes out there.

EDIT:
just thought i should add - this isn't me defending the actual gamemode and thinking it should stay. I have never even seen it in action or tried it. I'm just considering RP plus I think it's dumb to say 'he stealing with dis cashgrab' despite the fact that the bounty will end soon and almost no gamemodes have been made so it's not really stealing. At worst even if it is an actual cashgrab, it's not stealing unless im just not seeing the other multiple gamemodes being made.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Spoiler:

iksyp wrote:

Lazengann wrote:Remove the armory but make a new job called "Gun Dealer"

he can spawn guns for space credits at his whim but can only buy some in bulk shipments
also if any of his stuff gets stolen and no one goes to the comms console to send the message "raid" the person who stole it gets banned

add this

You know what would be a good thing to do considering how some headmins in the election wanted this one particular thing that is in this gamemode? Not ending all testing of this immediately because this can help us see if roleplay can work. The most I've seen get done to bring back rp was literally 'you can't be called this or else we'll fucking ban you.' Goofball is literally doing more to bring back roleplay than most of what I have seen or can even remember. RP events are nice and all however that's not bringing back rp. That's just a dedicated event.

Also, as far as I know, only one other person has made a gamemode and that was fucking Carbonhell, i think, who is a hippie headmin. Goofball is not stealing shit if no one else is taking the opportunity. Also, you're not Naksu. If you think Goof is trying to get a quick crashgrab then voice your concerns, sure, however you don't get to make the end decision. Naksu is the arbiter of whether or not the gamemode is fine and its his money. If Naksu thinks 'eh, I think it is a good gamemode' then that's it.

Not every gamemode has to be special anyways and the idea is gangs. Not a cult worshipping a god, not a bunch of trained soldiers going to war, nor is it the devil coming down to ss13 because he's looking for a soul to steal. At best, Goof can make some machines and cosmetics. Not a lot compared to the other gamemodes out there.

EDIT:
just thought i should add - this isn't me defending the actual gamemode and thinking it should stay. I have never even seen it in action or tried it. I'm just considering RP plus I think it's dumb to say 'he stealing with dis cashgrab' despite the fact that the bounty will end soon and almost no gamemodes have been made so it's not really stealing. At worst even if it is an actual cashgrab, it's not stealing unless im just not seeing the other multiple gamemodes being made.

The only other person I've seen making a mode is dapocalypse, and theirs are even more of a cashgrab seeing as the ideas are stolen from digg

goof's proposed changes to the mode have made me more hopeful for it. here's to hoping it turns out to be really fun and enjoyable. if it doesn't, then goof, please don't just abandon it like what happened with old gang and try different things to make it fun. what i mean by that is that you're coming at this from a "break lots of existing gamemode cliches" angle which isn't innherently bad, but you're doing a LOT of things differently at once and i'm worried that maybe too many different things will hurt the mode overall (like for example: not discouraging conversion is a cliche breaker, and so is not being able to tell who is on your team, but if it turns out that these two things together don't play well, i hope you'll give undoing one or the other a try to see what works better).

hoping this goes well!

Some thoughts:

I agree that this mode as is has too much self antagging and grief for this server. The click until sideways mentality of TG is too strong to just let people run wild when anyone can become an antag at any time at will.

That being said, I like the idea and I'm sure we can come up with some tweaks.


Ways for gangs to get points. And a limitation, a gang member can only get points if they are wearing gang colors at the time.
+ killing a rival gang member
+ stealing shit. have an area around the sign up location for a gang that adds up value of items in it, like the pirate vault. Encourage gangs to steal shit. This will also encourage gang-civilian conflict
+ Gang bounties on goods. The gangs have certain randomly generated items that are worth a lot more points that round like a cargo bounty. That would diversify what gangs are doing instead of them just robbing the vault and science shit. You could organize 3 or 4 gangsters to break into the CE's office because the blueprints are worth 10x as much this round or something like that.

lose points
- killing a civilian. This would be to discourage murdering civilians just because you can. It would be worth it when you're killing a civilian because you got caught stealing something valuable from a civilian. If the blueprint is worth a lot this round and the CE catches you stealing him you might have to off him over it.
-- killing a security officer. Fluff wise this brings even more heat down on your gang than killing a civilian. Game balance wise it's also to discourage an all out deathmatch between gangs and sec every single round.

I know that determining who killed someone is tough or possibly impossible though. You could tell if someone dealt the killing blow. You should also be able to tell who the last person who struck someone is if they die later. Like if someone dies go back until they were at 0 HP and see the last person who hit them. If you kill someone without making any kind of attack against them then you got away with it and it doesn't hurt you gang.

Issues:
Security shouldn't be allowed to be gangsters at all because they're just going to sign up on one side to get more valids and bring their weapons with them.

How do we avoid it turning into a deathmatch?

1 Security needs a reason to not just murder all gangsters.

2 Gangs need a reason to not just murder all sec and civilians. I think part of that would be losing points to your gang for doing that. So it's only worth killing them when there's something to gain or in defense.

An idea: would it be possible to trigger some kind of critical mass event when there's too much chaos and death on the station? I don't know what the exact conditions would be, maybe X% of people dead. In this situation every non gangster and unimplanted crewman becomes members of a team "antag". One where the civilians band together to wipe out the gangs and sec who are causing chaos. This would punish gestapo sec and murderbone gangs. That way if the round devolves into a deathmatch, it really is a deathmatch and everyone gets to be involved. Now both sec and the gangs know that if they push things too far and too deadly then every single member of the crew is going to be directed to kill them all. That's kind of realistic, gangs IRL are constantly trying to see what they can push to get more money and power without going so far that the police are forced to show up in military force and deal with them.

Some mentalities that we should work into the round and players. Gangs should be allowed to work together when they're threatened as a whole. If sec decides they need to eradicate the gangsters then the gangs should put their differences aside and fight sec over each other until it's settled.

I think we should use normal escalation rules but treat the entire gang as an individual. Gang member kills a sec officer, now there's a valid reason for sec to start hauling in or shooting any member of that gang. But they don't have license to kill members of a gang that's only done some petty crime. The blue gang just wrecked the kitchen, beat up the chef, and stole all the kitchen knives? Now any civilian can retaliate against the blue gang if they think they can win.

General point loss from everyone for every death would be a simple way to do it, you can fluff it as the gang's lawyers charging more to get them off for every murder when the cops come. Gang member deaths would be point neutral to members of other gangs but would still be a penalty to both the gang who lost the member and security.

While I rework the core gameplay loop, I'm going to put this on the backburner and focus on a project that should be more successful in modern SS13, while I wait on good assets and hash out the Families 2.0 design.

Dr_bee wrote:General point loss from everyone for every death would be a simple way to do it, you can fluff it as the gang's lawyers charging more to get them off for every murder when the cops come. Gang member deaths would be point neutral to members of other gangs but would still be a penalty to both the gang who lost the member and security.

I think the idea would be that the more deaths the more pressure security has to do something, both off and on the station. So you'd lose points because eventually centcomm would do something about it if you go nuts.

I don't think security would have points, or if they did they wouldn't lose them on gang member death. Cops IRL don't give a shit if a bunch of shithead gangbangers kill each other.

Maybe after a certain amount of death it auto triggers a death squad or something.

WarbossLincoln wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:General point loss from everyone for every death would be a simple way to do it, you can fluff it as the gang's lawyers charging more to get them off for every murder when the cops come. Gang member deaths would be point neutral to members of other gangs but would still be a penalty to both the gang who lost the member and security.

I think the idea would be that the more deaths the more pressure security has to do something, both off and on the station. So you'd lose points because eventually centcomm would do something about it if you go nuts.

I don't think security would have points, or if they did they wouldn't lose them on gang member death. Cops IRL don't give a shit if a bunch of shithead gangbangers kill each other.

Maybe after a certain amount of death it auto triggers a death squad or something.

The point of the penalty to sec on gang member death is to encourage them to keep the peace between gangs and not go full gestapo murder squad, what cops do IRL doesnt matter.

I'll hold any opinions about the mode itself until after goof gives up economy, but some general things.

If you need to rely on a gamemode-specific clause in the rules, then you aren't coding a gamemode, you're coding a base for a glorified admin event.

Speaking on that, for what reason should I not join a gang and just never wear my colors, and just stab the shit out of people wearing their colors? Are the colors even removable?

stay in your own server DMCA admin