/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

The dirt change just increased the issue that was already there.

Just go look at what I said in the issue report.

Literally the dirt change proved that. Depending on how a round goes you can either be working all the time as a janitor cleaning everything or standing about as there is nothing you can reach to clean. We have mice and mousetraps for the janitor to kill and dispose of. We got blood trails for the janitor to clean up we have randomly generated dirt and other stuff at the start of the round for the janitor to clean. Which one appears to need the most work? Which one is the most rewarding its probably the same since that is the only one you can reach.

The change with dirt is bad yes due to how high pop we get and how tiny are passageways are compared to Bay.

I looked at your issue report.

I disagree with your assertation that blood trails prove the janitor job is broken or that absolutely broken code proves something else was broken before it was implimented and you did absolutely nothing to prove it. You can repeat it all you want, it does not make it true and I countered your argument about blood trails on git and pointed out why they have a lot of positive features and qualities that create a good gameplay experience for the janitor: The scope is limited, source known, and size of the goal gaugable. It is why mazes of blood patterns, and the dirt change, are so frustrating.

I still don't understand how you could say that 3 tiles cleaned per second to break even makes any sort of sense even with an army of cleaning droids. You have to realize that you arguing that the janitor is broken here is a defense of the dirt code. Saying it "proved" the janitor was broken means you are arguing that the code was not what broke the system, and therefore is a valid change. It would be like saying removing any sort of access from the captain "proves" he is a broken role. When you impliment something flawed and then things break in response to that, it proves absolutely nothing about the thing you broke. You can't judge a system based on a broken system introduced to it in any way except testing its resiliancy, that is a pretty major rule in design. So the only thing you can take away from this broken dirt code is that the janitor is not resiliant enough a job to clean 3 tiles a second.

You at no point have tried to refute the fundemental problems with dirt code, the underlying mathmatical absurdity of it. You are instead trying to draw conclusions about something related to it that it directly negatively impacted, which is a non-argument no one is going to take seriously, because broken code breaking things is what makes the code broken, it doesn't reflect on the things it breaks. We did not entirely change projectile code or the map when erro introduced diagonals and broke them, we removed diagonals because the change was poorly implimented and broke other existing functional things.

And your issue report is "The change proved janitor was broken." It was a single sentence declaring what you have already declared with no supporting data or arguments. I only bothered to post there because I know some coders really don't post or read the forums and this change irked my professional sensibilities enough due to being a textbook example of what not to do when you discover problems with a change. As in literally textbook. "Thout shalt not change other things in response to your code breaking them. Thout shalt fix your code first and then examine the original for faults."

Sure fine if you truly believe that a job which goes about trying to keep the station clean when pretty much everything is actually designed to stop that.
Before the dirt change it normally ended up either the station not being chaotic enough to have the janitor to be busy and mostly stand about trying to find something to clean or the station being a absolute mess with holes in the floor everywhere making it impossible for the janitor to clean. (This is all known I am just pointing it out that the janitors job entirely is pointless)

The dirt change itself is awful and should of been tested properly and thought about when multiple people will be using it but it wasnt. Coders arent organised and discuss everything in perfect detail knowing how changes will happen and you know that already.

The change itself has pointed out something specific though it breaks the immersion that everyone currently has with the game only blood and a few other things make a mess beforehand which was good and bad. It relied upon people dying then getting dragged to medical and also allow the detective to find murders.

Paprika did say earlier about how this makes everything "dynamic" it dosent it makes it a reactive unintelligent heap of mess that just makes everyone hate the game.

The janitors job in total is just awful it is dependant on people willing to clean clean and clean more of which is fun when other things happen and how people react but really overall how it works is rather unintuitive at the moment it needs to be revamped to make it better in both how mess is created and how it gets cleaned. The bots idea was just one.

Anyhow I did make that issue report to move this more general discussion there as to not to derail this thread with a more general conversation about the janitor the dirt change is bad I see how it is bad but the janitor job was already bad.

Jalleo wrote:Sure fine if you truly believe that a job which goes about trying to keep above a heap of cleaning when other things are designed to prevent that and how the server culture can treat the janitor makes it fine when I see it as broken since really it dosent make anything good for the round apart from a dirty station which cant be kept up. The dirt code itself is awful you misintrepreted that I did say a few times that it proved this by speeding up the process. People hate messy stations that is what the dirt change did it proved that the janitor cant do this.
Paprika can say about how this makes it "dynamic" but it dosent its reactive to how people are using a area and not even intelligently. The dirt just really proved even more that the janitor job is pointless and answer me this how does a RP job that literally just have a person mop a floor make it RP? It is more the person going out of their way with a boring job that dosent do anything to make RP which is what I like. The job itself is very dependant on who plays it.

You are just saying words now that make no coherent point our any sort of actual counter argument to the problems people have with this change. You repeatedly are making bold statements that are entirely based on assumptions rather than things we can observe. And frankly your grammar is bad enough that it makes it hard to even glean what you are trying to say. I don't mean to say that in a dickish way, but grammar only matters when it is poor enough to make communication uncertain and this is clearly a case.

I am serious. I don't think I can respond to this in a manner that is fair to you until you fix your post. I can't actually read what you are trying to say. You seem to be going on about how the janitor is supposed to endlessly fix things that are endlessly broken but that literally was not the case until this change. Then you said the dirt change proved the janitor can't keep up, but that is completely insane because, again, there is a difference between asking the janitor to clean maybe 50 tiles once every 5 minutes and 3 tiles a second all day every day. It proves nothing because the scope is just absurd. Mathmatically the dirt change is so out there that we can't actually draw anything about the core janitor job because it behaves nothing like anything the janitor had to deal with before.

That is the fundemental issue. This change is so extreme that under no realistic conditions for any permutation for the janitor job could he reasonably be expected to keep up unless he somehow had access to several things that would basically render the job to something completely automated.

Previous janitor tasks were not this herculian. You did not need to clear 3 tiles a second to clean blood trails because the entire nature of the problem was completely different. Blood trails were a line of filth that were spawned under specific, highly limited conditions and for a limited duration. The dirt change behaves nothing like that and thus can't tie into discussions about the jantior's previous nature.

Fixed it. I apologise but British schools arent well known for teaching english well. And I am trying to focus on something else at the moment as well making this worse.

Jalleo wrote:Fixed it. I apologise but British schools arent well known for teaching english well. And I am trying to focus on something else at the moment as well making this worse.

No problems, it happens to the best of us.

I should mention that the janitor has the ability to order about cleaning bots now via their pda making some automation possible already in game.

That is actually super badass and something I didn't know. I rarely look at my PDA, but having droids run about at my command sounds awesome. I don't think it fixes the fundemental problems with dirt code but it makes isolated spills easier to clean up. You could sic some droids on the area where a fight took place to take care of patches of blood while you handle the trail for example. I often blew metal foam for that.

Info about it here and in coding section:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4974

Move the dirt up to 300 times walking over a tile and I'll be happy. I fucking hate this change. The entire station being covered in dirt in every fucking workway hallway is unbearable. No Janitor could clean the station. I mean look at science xenobio has two huge ass trails then it gos int oscience hallway to the research lab and then out the door. I can only imagine the fucking prison.

Even the monkies make too much dirt... and that's just two of them.

peoplearestrange wrote:

Even the monkies make too much dirt... and that's just two of them.

4

I joined a round last night where chemistry looked like it was cult floors, no joke.

This change needs to go. Dirt happens in everyday life on earth because it gets tracked in from outside. On a controlled environment like a space station, the only places dirt should be coming from would be the public gardens and the asteroid.

Incidentaly, what happened to the foot prints you could leave by walking through blood spills and the like?

This change wouldn't be so bad if cleaning didn't take a fuckton of time. Even soap got nerfed so it takes an annoying amount of time. Spray bottles are tolerable but constantly need refilling at chemistry.

Creating a brand new issue and then claiming something else entirely has been broken all along before the new issue "and this just proves it" is fucking retarded.

"Guys Chemistry can now make hulk pills and instantly revive dead people, why is Genetics so broken and unable to keep up? Genetics clearly has been broken 5ever and needs to be changed/removed." (In recent coderbus agenda, likely removed.)

Saegrimr wrote:Creating a brand new issue and then claiming something else entirely has been broken all along before the new issue "and this just proves it" is fucking retarded.

"Guys Chemistry can now make hulk pills and instantly revive dead people, why is Genetics so broken and unable to keep up? Genetics clearly has been broken 5ever and needs to be changed/removed." (In recent coderbus agenda, likely removed.)

Thank you for saying in two senteces what I took 4 paragraphs to say.

That is exactly the idea. You can't judge something you break if what you used to break it was already broken or so ridculously overtuned that no reasonable person could expect the system to not break.

Bombadil wrote:Move the dirt up to 300 times walking over a tile and I'll be happy. I fucking hate this change. The entire station being covered in dirt in every fucking workway hallway is unbearable. No Janitor could clean the station. I mean look at science xenobio has two huge ass trails then it gos int oscience hallway to the research lab and then out the door. I can only imagine the fucking prison.

A 1 in 300 chance means that on an average 60 population round where the average person moves 1 tile a second, you are generating 1 dirt every 6 seconds on the station somewhere. That is still a rather high rate of dirt and it is going to generally be happening in areas the janitor lacks access to and in a non-centralized area.

To be fair I was able to keep the entire station fairly clean as a janitor borg. The only problem is when you stop to charge its an uphill battle to get back in control.

When I have to deleted 2000 dirt piles every ten minutes at high pop there is a problem. It looks like shit, clutters anything on a dirty tile and demonstrates an inherently problematic coder policy of having an idea of something to change and doing it. It seems that some people just think of A THING and merge it because they thought of it and made it and that's it. Can we get some thought behind changes because I find the fact this has been defended in any way ludicrous.

I'm literally under the impression that this is some kind of satire because I can't quite comprehend why some of these things are being said or happening. It's absurd.

No dirt is not a big deal, but that's not an excuse to not fix things. Some thought about the actual necissity of these changes needs to be made.

This is a serious overreaction about dirt though, really

paprika wrote:This is a serious overreaction about dirt though, really

The reason this is different is...

Stickymayhem wrote:When I have to deleted 2000 dirt piles every ten minutes at high pop there is a problem.

Your dirt update really sucks. And considering the fact you directly implied that dirt is utterly unimportant, removing its generation really shouldn't be an issue if it casuses more problems for the janitor, and the entire station, than enjoyment for them. Because if you admit it is trivial and doesn't really matter one way or the other and the reaction is almost universally negative, there is no reason to steam ahead.

The dirt change has some core problems that will always make it at best a low grade annoyance. While it was hillariously poorly tuned in the math department, you have always been good on doing tweaks and maintaining your code, so I really am not to worried about you finding a place where people will not want to rip out their own eyes over this. But the core issue is that it doesn't have good game feel. People know that dirt just appearing under them for walking is wrong, and it doesn't make any real sense if you view it as a method to generate engaging work for the janitor when the clods are going to be endlessly appearing at random areas, and it doesn't represent areas of heavy wear on the station well. I like the idea of gradually darkening dirt patches and honestly think they would be awesome, but not in this system simply because the method of generation is off as well as the numbers.

Then no one should be defending it.

Got my hands on some soap the other day and literally spent the entire round cleaning Medbay as a Medical Doctor. THE ENTIRE ROUND.

It was hilariously bad. Find a different solution, please.

Is there any chance this is going to be reverted? It is pretty universally hated and does not really add anything to gameplay

If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

I love this game.

WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

I love this game.

Ahahahhah, welcome to my sig.

WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

The argument goes both ways. It is only your personal opinion that this is a small issue. For others, the janitor job is now broken, and some people don't enjoy having the immersions ruined because the station looks like Ian scooted around the entire thing. Lots are arguing for the revert of this PR, but paprka is arguing just as much for it.

Incomptinence wrote:Humans generate dust yes. Mainly by losing hair and skin just you know churning our dead cells walking around isn't what releases it. Being stepped on actually disturbs the dust slightly so if we are talking skin particles and all that in a used area it would actually congregate on the less used surfaces.

Just sayin, the amount of dirt this "feature" assumes humans produce is roughly akin to Pigpen from the Peanuts cartoons.

Not to mention "reelism" is irrelivent and no reason to push shitty features, which this clearly is. Crew hate it, janitors hate it, we all hate it.

Paprika nerfed it and the nerf is most likely to be merged over the revert. Sadly.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6809

Nerf was merged

NikNakFlak wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6809

Nerf was merged

The nerf nobody wanted and nobody asked for.

Yeah. How big of a revolt needs to happen before this is removed?

My guess is to see how the nerf affects the severity of the dirt, if people are still riled up then it would be a easy matter to revert it.

Personally, it doesn't make a huge difference in gameplay to me. I log in and see everything normal as it usually is. Even if I play as a janitor, I probably wouldn't have a huge problem with it, the station is just never going to be 100% clean. Even before this update.

It depends on how you think about gameplay.

It definitely harms janitor gameplay and removes a lot of incentive to try, so in that sense it is bad. Gameplay isn't all about conflict and combat, dirt is in fact a part of gameplay to a certain degree for most jobs and defines gameplay for one.

But you could also look at it from the lens of aesthetic direction and game feel, and by that account it is really damn ugly and feels wrong.

There hasn't really been a good defense for this change rather than "Eh?" which isn't very compelling. Instead of saying "Oh whatever" why not try to explain what this adds to the game experience? Because the agreement seems to be "No benefit, either no loss or minor loss." Meaning at best for most people it adds nothing to their experience and at worst it remvoes something.

"It isn't completely ass" or "Well I mean it doesn't really affect anything important negatively" is hardly a defense of the change.

Also, calling this a few dozen dirt stains is dumb when hundreds of dirt tiles are created every minute. That is a bit more than "a few dozen."

dezzmont wrote:It depends on how you think about gameplay.

It definitely harms janitor gameplay and removes a lot of incentive to try, so in that sense it is bad. Gameplay isn't all about conflict and combat, dirt is in fact a part of gameplay to a certain degree for most jobs and defines gameplay for one.

I still see the janitor cleaning like normal, and there usually is a janitor.

dezzmont wrote:But you could also look at it from the lens of aesthetic direction and game feel, and by that account it is really damn ugly and feels wrong.

Going to stop right there and say that this game isn't supposed to look clean, either, even at round start.

dezzmont wrote:There hasn't really been a good defense for this change rather than "Eh?" which isn't very compelling. Instead of saying "Oh whatever" why not try to explain what this adds to the game experience? Because the agreement seems to be "No benefit, either no loss or minor loss." Meaning at best for most people it adds nothing to their experience and at worst it removes something.

Does it really need to add anything to gameplay? Does everything we add /have/ to keep us riveted to our seats?

dezzmont wrote:"It isn't completely ass" or "Well I mean it doesn't really affect anything important negatively" is hardly a defense of the change. "Paprika tried" is definitely not a defense and trying to hyper focus on some people getting agro is just a transparent smokescreen everyone can see through by now. For instance Saegmir was pretty fact focused until Paprika said everyone was overreacting and people were just butthurt.

Paprka tried to add something that might be nice. You don't really know until you try it out live, provided it doesn't turn everyone into mini Nar-Sies.
And yes, people were overreacting. Paprka even stated at the beginning of thread a few posts after that he could edit it to possibly make it better. Some decent criticism besides 'This is shit' would have probably helped him. I didn't mean 'Paprka tried, so it's alright to add', I meant 'Paprka tried, let's not blow his brains out for it.'.
He probably didn't consult anyone here before adding this because... it's dirt.
Also, our opening statement was:

danno wrote:THIS IS AWFUL

Not bashing on danno here, but that's not going to really help anyone's mood if that's the opening feedback to what they did.

dezzmont wrote:Also, calling this a few dozen dirt stains is dumb when hundreds of dirt tiles are created every minute. That is a bit more than "a few dozen."

It still doesn't look as bad as people are making it out to be. When I first heard about it, I logged in to expect the hallways to be completely black and caked with dirt. I probably wouldn't have noticed it had it not been pointed out.

Saegrimr wrote:

Spacemanspark wrote:Not everyone might be getting upset, but there certainly are a few people getting very upset over a few dozen extra dirt stains. Mostly looking at Saegrimer up there. That's hardly constructive criticism.
Again, though, I have yet to see how this harms gameplay. I log in and see everything normal as it usually is. Even if I play as a janitor, I probably wouldn't have a huge problem with it, the station is just never going to be 100% clean. Even before this update.

Its about as topical as the person it was directed at.

You could still be the more mature person about it.

I'll edit this later to make it make more sense, I'm currently focusing my attention on fifteen different things.

Its a horrible change and you should feel bad for not admitting you are wrong.

Paprika, please elaborate as to why you think this change is a good one. The only reason I can find that you've given to this is essentially that you did this to intentionally provoke the community.

The Janitor is one of my most played roles along side the Medical Doctor but below Security. What this has done is create a unnecessary amount of work for a job that already has a large amount of work to do, the station is inheriently messy just from how the round progresses, yet now there's a even more obnoxious layer of a mess that has to be cleaned up as well.

Please provide a actual, sound, reasoning as to why you support this change. You gave no reason in the initial PR, no good reason in this thread (barring the "I did it to make u mad") and no good reason in game or in any follow up PRs. Because otherwise if even you can't defend your change that does not devolve into personal attacks, I don't see a reason why it cannot be reverted.

It shouldn't be reverted because it adds more depth to the janitor job by having dirt generation that doesn't require people to die and be dragged around like corpses.

This change has made the station most repugnant to mine googly boxes. I found myself most distressed when I joined the station today and had my lovely jovely round interrupted by the most hideous infestation of brown that I have ever spotted upon the earth. Indeed I found myself being quite sick to the stomach and had to interrupt my tea drinking for a spot of R&R in the watercloset.

Most unpleasant, I do hope that this feedback is sent in a form you find most pleasing to the eye.

Regards

Lord Cumberlington Wellington the Third

Delicious wrote:

paprika wrote:apparently me adding dirt from people walking over tiles a lot to make the janitor more fun and dynamic is a terrible feature

How often do you play janitor? Because the mess you're dealing with was insurmountable enough already without adding more.

Pretty often, you can clear everywhere you have access to (barring like, all of maint) in about 10 minutes with the space cleaner backpack.

Paparika, when you make a change that effects the aesthetics and look of the entire station, complaining about how it LOOKS is valid feedback, because it is an aesthetic change. And it looks really shitty. Especially since unlike the blood trails we already have, this change tends to generate the dirt in areas that janitor can't get to.

Would that not be a bonus for traitor janitors in the long run?

I know how you are thinking but sometimes you have to take a bigger picture not a indepth one.


Yes some of it can be shit but to be honest it makes people feel like the janitor should do more than be a jokey griefy jobs at times it has been like.

iyaerP wrote:Paparika, when you make a change that effects the aesthetics and look of the entire station, complaining about how it LOOKS is valid feedback, because it is an aesthetic change. And it looks really shitty. Especially since unlike the blood trails we already have, this change tends to generate the dirt in areas that janitor can't get to.

blood trails don't appear anywhere but hallways and maint you heard it here first folks

Delicious wrote:Roundstart messes are ridiculous now. I wish their volume scaled by server population. In slower rounds, when there will be less bloodstains for a janitor to clean up, a lot of roundstart messes would give him something to do. But in higher population rounds, with a lot of deaths, the extra mess isn't needed.

This seems like a good idea.

theres a ton of roundstart messes now, thats a bug. somebody forgot some prob()s, i dont even know who it was.