/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Dat. Excepting Warden and HoS berets, obvs, because fuck the police (hat).

I'm not fully for giving the HoS/Warden hats the capability to hold a Sec Camera/Light. Mainly because I want to encourage Warden's to remain on the brig watching Officers in the field, and the HoS is too badass for a camera.

Also I'm not touching helmet cameras, it was way out of my depth since all I was initially planning to do was let you mount lights on helmets.

I was more referring to armor stats rather than camera attachabilitification.

I dislike the concept of helmets, berets, and caps all having the same armour values, because they're clearly different pieces of equipment.

But what I hate much, much more is the idea that if you wear the helmet for its armour value, you're pulling "dat powergame". It's standard equipment and officers get hit a lot: this is no more powergaming than making sure to put on HUDglasses or using a taser to arrest people.

I was not implying that people who wear helmets are powergaming, more that people who want berets to have the exact same stats as a friggin armored helmet were

Wyzack wrote:I was not implying that people who wear helmets are powergaming, more that people who want berets to have the exact same stats as a friggin armored helmet were

It's actually an anti-powergame thing. Having an objectively best piece of headgear just create slight feels-bad moments for anyone who wants to wear something else. Lots of MMO's let you wear one piece of armor but have it look like another. This is to separate your graphical appearance from the gameplay effects so you don't have to look be gimped to get your most desired appearance.

Last time I checked beret WAS less armored then the helmet.
Also if you're such a pleb that you refuse to wear the beret because it's slightly less robust (or no armor at all back in the day) then you have literally no right to whinge about fashion.

lumipharon wrote:Last time I checked beret WAS less armored then the helmet.
Also if you're such a pleb that you refuse to wear the beret because it's slightly less robust (or no armor at all back in the day) then you have literally no right to whinge about fashion.

Why should they have to choose though? There's no gain from having the choice, only bad feelings for anyone who wants to wear the beret.

I still wear the beret, but my light fetish requires me to have maximum luminosity at all times, that I might shine like the sun.
(PDA, taser seclite, helmet seclite and pocket seclite achieve this quite well.)

Perhaps we could make it that you can also attach a Seclite to your armour vest? In the words of Allura.

Allura wrote:this is the stupidest thing oh my god
LETS JUST MAKE THE SECLIGHT ATTACH TO ABSOLUTELY FUCKING EVERYTHING THAT WAY SEC CAN BE EVEN MORE BULLSHIT OP

On topic, the reason why the Sec Beret has the same armour values as the helmet is, as described above, to allow Officers who want to appear more stylish to not be penalised for doing so. Though they still lose flash protection.

MisterPerson wrote:

lumipharon wrote:Last time I checked beret WAS less armored then the helmet.
Also if you're such a pleb that you refuse to wear the beret because it's slightly less robust (or no armor at all back in the day) then you have literally no right to whinge about fashion.

Why should they have to choose though? There's no gain from having the choice, only bad feelings for anyone who wants to wear the beret.

Because it makes no logical sense for a soft fabric beret to be armored like a solid metal helmet.

If you want to maximise your 'stats' you can use the helmet.

If you like the aesthetic of the beret, use the fucking beret.

Seriously, before pap ruined the sec jumpsuit (sleeverolling is shit) I played sec officer with the old unarmored beret and no armor vest.
I had no ear protection and no armor except the baseline armor of the jumpsuit (which was another shitty change.

I did so knowing full well this was putting myself at a mechanical disadvantage.
But so fucking what? If you want fashion wars 'reskin anything' play guild wars 2 or something. This isn't some super realistic game, but there has to be some bloody logic.

Otherwise you can use that shitty logic to make any item have bizarre and inconsistant stats because fashion.
Insulated gloves are practical, black gloves look better. Doesn't mean I want to be able to get insulated fingerless gloves, because it's fucking dumb.

Pretty much exactly what Lumi said, if you wanna look good you will sometimes have to take a minor disadvantage and that is fucking fine. The price of beauty and all that.

Steelpoint wrote:Perhaps we could make it that you can also attach a Seclite to your armour vest? In the words of Allura.

Allura wrote:this is the stupidest thing oh my god
LETS JUST MAKE THE SECLIGHT ATTACH TO ABSOLUTELY FUCKING EVERYTHING THAT WAY SEC CAN BE EVEN MORE BULLSHIT OP

On topic, the reason why the Sec Beret has the same armour values as the helmet is, as described above, to allow Officers who want to appear more stylish to not be penalised for doing so. Though they still lose flash protection.

Attatching the seclite to your vest was, I'm pretty sure, your original PR, before someoneit was me again my plan to destroy tg arizes #mechgate suggested helmet cams.

lumipharon wrote:

MisterPerson wrote:
Why should they have to choose though? There's no gain from having the choice, only bad feelings for anyone who wants to wear the beret.

Because it makes no logical sense for a soft fabric beret to be armored like a solid metal helmet.

If you want to maximise your 'stats' you can use the helmet.

If you like the aesthetic of the beret, use the fucking beret.

Seriously, before pap ruined the sec jumpsuit (sleeverolling is shit) I played sec officer with the old unarmored beret and no armor vest.
I had no ear protection and no armor except the baseline armor of the jumpsuit (which was another shitty change.

I did so knowing full well this was putting myself at a mechanical disadvantage.
But so fucking what? If you want fashion wars 'reskin anything' play guild wars 2 or something. This isn't some super realistic game, but there has to be some bloody logic.

Otherwise you can use that shitty logic to make any item have bizarre and inconsistant stats because fashion.
Insulated gloves are practical, black gloves look better. Doesn't mean I want to be able to get insulated fingerless gloves, because it's fucking dumb.

Insulated gloves have a major distinction from other gloves, so it's important to visually recognize them on sight. That's not the case with berets which have no mechanical distinction from regular helmets. If there was some sort of distinction, such as berets having the camera but helmets being more armored or something, then yeah being distinct is important.

I love how you bitch about "fashion wars" while at the same time making this about your fashion choice being better than another fashion choice. If you really wanted there to be no "fashion wars", we could just remove the beret outright. But nobody wants that.

People enjoy the beret. Let's not punish them for choosing the beret over a helmet. It's a really simple concept. If anything you should be happy instead of complaining that your security experience has gotten better.

Or, k'now, they could just carry the helmet in their bag and equip it when needed. The fact a piece of cloth provides as much protection as a military-grade helmet is just stupid.

What if I told you they were made out of carbon nanotubes?

I was not implying that people who wear helmets are powergaming, more that people who want berets to have the exact same stats as a friggin armored helmet were

Oh right, sorry, misunderstood!

What if I told you they were made out of carbon nanotubes?

Carbon nanotubes is such a bad excuse I wouldn't know where to start.

You can't just casually mention the beret just happens to be made out of some sort of futuristic super-material that makes what looks like simple cloth as strong as armour and which is cheap enough to just happen to have in a locker in case an officer wants to switch to it, and THEN say "but nothing else is made of this and it has no wider implications on the setting".

You're better off just leaving the ludonarrative dissonance as it is. Putting that problem in actually forces more suspension of disbelief.

Although a special futuristic cloth that had wider implications on the setting (kind of like plasma, except plasma has perhaps too many implications) might be kind of cool. You could make labcoats and assistant jackets out of it, for example.

Make it so you can put the beret on the helmet

MisterPerson wrote: Insulated gloves have a major distinction from other gloves, so it's important to visually recognize them on sight. That's not the case with berets which have no mechanical distinction from regular helmets. If there was some sort of distinction, such as berets having the camera but helmets being more armored or something, then yeah being distinct is important.

I love how you bitch about "fashion wars" while at the same time making this about your fashion choice being better than another fashion choice. If you really wanted there to be no "fashion wars", we could just remove the beret outright. But nobody wants that.

People enjoy the beret. Let's not punish them for choosing the beret over a helmet. It's a really simple concept. If anything you should be happy instead of complaining that your security experience has gotten better.

I literally don't know what you're talking about.

Previously, berets were purely decorative, and people used them anyway, because they look nice.
They then got buffed, first with flashbang protection, then later with armor values, removing the mechanic difference between them. Both of these buffs 'benefit me', but that doesn't mean I agree with them.

Helmets always had armor values - they're a metal bucket on your head, it makes sense. A berets is a sock on your head. Certain people went out of their way to remove armor values from jumpsuits because 'they're only cloth', yet berets got buffed to give the same protection as a helmet, solely because some people don't want to deal with the fact that they might have to compromise on stats, to get the visual look they want.

This is relevent to headsets because it's the exact same thing. Bowmans give earprotection, it's their gimmick. People want normal sec headsets to be special snowflakes and be different from all the other normal headsets, solely because some people don't want to deal with the fact that they might have to compromise on stats, to get the visual look they want.


This has nothing to do with removing fashion, or fashion wars is bad. It's the fact balancing stats around your personal outfit is fucking dumb. I only brought up what I used to wear because it gimped the shit out of me hard in terms of stats, but I choose to do it anyway, as should anyone else with their headsets or whatever the fuck this argument even started about.

if i was a new player and i smacked some dude in the head
and his beret protected him meaningfully from my weapon of choice

that would be extremely unintuitive and offputting.

Malkevin wrote:What if I told you they were made out of carbon nanotubes?

carbon nanotubes are basically hyperasbestos as far as breathing them in is concerned though.

>Implying that spacemen live long enough to get lung cancer.

Miauw wrote:

Malkevin wrote:What if I told you they were made out of carbon nanotubes?

carbon nanotubes are basically hyperasbestos as far as breathing them in is concerned though.

I guess you shouldn't blend it then

Also you could just clone someone with a fresh pair of lungs

oranges wrote:Also you could just clone someone with a fresh pair of lungs

Surely we could add synthetic lungs?

Regarding the recent lockdown on the attempt to remove cablecuffs, spears and stunprods - I think it's good that it got canned, but shit like this...

Miauw62 wrote:Large maintainer opposition and headcoder dislike mean that this PR should probably be closed.

...makes me think that the feelings of a large number of players are still largely irrelevant to the coding team. Yes, it's the outcome we wanted, but if you're specifically citing groups that are opposed to a change, and the playerbase is not one of them despite their alignment being clear, then that's indicative of an issue.
EDIT: Thanks for unlocking the discussion thread, Jeb. I don't know why MrP locked it in the first place. This is where the players discuss things.

i have said this a million fucking times and i will say it a million fucking times more:
POLLS. ARE. FUCKING. GARBAGE.

I CARE about player opinions. If people massively dislike something (after a period of time because lots of people will go "boo hoo my favorite exploit got removed" or "boo hoo i have to learn new things"), there is obviously something WRONG, and something should be chagned. but that doesnt HELP YOU ANYTHING. what is wrong? you have no fucking clue, you just know that people dislike this. good fucking luck. that is why the feedback forum is not just a bunch of strawpolls.
I will happily read ARGUMENTS and REASONS as to why something is bad, and suggestions of how to make things better.

if you're going to make another shitstorm thread, please don't put it in minor feedback, make a separate thread, or, even better, put it on singulo.

oh, and before you say "anoter exsemple of coddrs no like plry and say r separte" i think a bunch of the stuff HG says is BS.

i would also like to point out that nobody liked the runspeed change before it happened, but some time after many people liked it. (to the point where newfriend powergamers whined when sanic was reintroduced for april fools)

and finally, i have done my fucking best to stay out of the bullshit fashion police PRs and other assorted drama-filled PRs. please don't project your fucking drama onto me of all people.

[/rant]

Miauw for codermin

AnonymousNow wrote:
...makes me think that the feelings of a large number of players are still largely irrelevant to the coding team.

AnonymousNow wrote: still largely irrelevant to the coding team.

AnonymousNow wrote: the coding team.

Tgstation does not have a coding team.

It has a series of protracted coding arguments.

The various Ethereal Jaunt-style abilities desperately need a clear indicator of where you are that's visible only to the caster. It's possible to line up the center of the screen, obviously, but due to the limited duration of these abilities, that isn't always practical. As-is, jaunting into narrow maintenance corridors a huge hassle.

Uranium walls being nerfed. Good bye sweet prince.

Ripleys have six slots now, and uranium reactors are just as good. You know you want to.

Are you suggesting naming a Ripley Cancer-Bot and walking about the station with 6 nuclear reactors set to on?

Malkevin wrote:Are you suggesting naming a Ripley Cancer-Bot and walking about the station with 6 nuclear reactors set to on?

Wear a radsuit, as the mech does NOT protect you against your own reactors!

With new mining getting all the uranium for reactors is pain

Fortunately, the Ripley is a mining mech.

This is gonna be rad.

Add a small button to lock UI, I'm talking about buttons in top left, that are more and more common. And since they can be moved around by dragging, you can move them accidentally in the heat of the ation.

Some Hitler removed eternal burning of borgs splashed with wielding fuel untill someone extinguishes them.
Cant defeat secborg with just beaker of fuel and zippo anymore ;-;7

qwert wrote:Some Hitler removed eternal burning of borgs splashed with wielding fuel untill someone extinguishes them.
Cant defeat secborg with just beaker of fuel and zippo anymore ;-;7

They're made of metal; they wouldn't take burn damage anyway, I'd expect.

Though the idea of a borg stop-drop-rolling and not being able to get up is quite an amusing one.

The discussion as to whether borgs should take fire damage was already held a while back where it was brought up as a bug.
It was decided to keep borgs being on fire and taking burn damage as it was clearly not a bug (plenty of code for borgs to handle being on fire damage wise and visually)
Plus Phil has just made borgs have the fire protection of a fire suit.

Is weedscopes in the house? I tried to mutate blue cherries from a cherry tree, and used almost 300u of mutagen trying to get the fucking things to mutate. That is something like 60 injections with no mutation, whereas on the other hand i got rice from wheat after like three. Is there any way to make it more likely? There is very little info on this as the wiki is not updated with all of the details. Either i am doing something wrong, it is so unlikely as to be not possible in the average round, or i am the just the most unlucky bastard on the planet

Looking at the code, cherries don't have a mutatelist, so you can't get them via mutating normal cherries. Dunno if that is a bug or if there's another way to get them.

Damn, thanks for checking that out. There are a ton of new recipes that use them.

Change of fire transferring between mobs is FUCKING BRUTAL. I had seen flaming man in fire suit setting everyone on fire with his BURNING HUGS OF LOVE and nobody could get extinguished, because of people on the floor being ignited by those running around in panic.

Setting borgs alight in crowded areas is pretty funny, because they usually chase after you, and of course set a load of people on fire.

":n borgs setting people on fire blow post haste"

MisterPerson wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

You know what, fuck it, I can do that.

Thank you so much, I was so happy to see that as a pref option when I logged in yesterday! The days of spacing all the violins are over.

qwert wrote:Change of fire transferring between mobs is FUCKING BRUTAL. I had seen flaming man in fire suit setting everyone on fire with his BURNING HUGS OF LOVE and nobody could get extinguished, because of people on the floor being ignited by those running around in panic.

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous at the moment. It'd make more sense if it only transferred when someone was unusually flammable (covered in welding fluid, or whatever).

there is 0 way to tell HOW somebody was set aflame.
Only that they have some "flame stacks" (these come from burn damage, random effects, welding fuel, and negative stacks (assumed to be "water") come from showers and splashing yourself)
So right now you can only tell they are flammable, not why.

Remie Richards wrote:there is 0 way to tell HOW somebody was set aflame.
Only that they have some "flame stacks" (these come from burn damage, random effects, welding fuel, and negative stacks (assumed to be "water") come from showers and splashing yourself)
So right now you can only tell they are flammable, not why.

Well, it seems that you need to add logging, RR.

Fire bullets for syndicate shotgun are total crap.

That's nice to know, but I dare say I am pessimistic about just how easy that is to change with this level of detail.