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Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:29 pm
by Sexmaster
Bottom post of the previous page:
Cobby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:17 pm
On the topic of newbie crutch: I don’t care to the extent that I have explicitly said I want MD not to be associated with a newbie job.
This is really out of your control unless you intend on timelocking doctor, which sounds like a terrible idea. New people aren't really going to know that MD is a difficult job without someone explicitly telling them.
Also, everyone has to start med somewhere, making it a pain in the ass to learn in the first place is going to make it more annoying for the people trying to get revived, and the doctors trying to learn.
If med is such an important job, it would be nice to see something that actually assists with healing massive amounts of dead people when shit does hit the fan, such as nukies or blob. Instead of 10 dead people with organs all non-functional because there are just too many people and not enough beds.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:34 pm
by oranges
Sexmaster wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:29 pm that actually assists with healing massive amounts of dead people when shit does hit the fan, such as nukies or blob. Instead of 10 dead people with organs all non-functional because there are just too many people and not enough beds.
That is working exactly as it is intended, you are **NOT** supposed to be able to heal mass casulties
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:36 am
by Shadowflame909
So should rounds end when the majority of crew are dead or do we just want them to log off
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:15 am
by cacogen
oranges wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:34 pm
Sexmaster wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:29 pm that actually assists with healing massive amounts of dead people when shit does hit the fan, such as nukies or blob. Instead of 10 dead people with organs all non-functional because there are just too many people and not enough beds.
That is working exactly as it is intended, you are **NOT** supposed to be able to heal mass casulties
Yes, I'm sure that isn't an unintended side-effect of the system you're now calling a feature. Because it absolutely makes sense that if players are alive and willing to act as doctors that they shouldn't be able to heal everyone within an amount of time that doesn't make it extremely undesirable to attempt.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:00 am
by Unoki
The problems of mass organ decay and not enought bed could be solved be adding some kind of stasis bags that can be printed roundstart that could totatly replace the stasis beds since they both would do the same thing.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:03 am
by cacogen
Don't morgue trays prevent organ decay? If so, those could be used as a workaround.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:14 am
by Mothblocks
they do
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:34 pm
by oranges
Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:36 am
So should rounds end when the majority of crew are dead or do we just want them to log off
they should be ending or investing in podcloning, but ultimately that decision is left up to the alive crew.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:35 pm
by oranges
cacogen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:15 am
oranges wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:34 pm
Sexmaster wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:29 pm that actually assists with healing massive amounts of dead people when shit does hit the fan, such as nukies or blob. Instead of 10 dead people with organs all non-functional because there are just too many people and not enough beds.
That is working exactly as it is intended, you are **NOT** supposed to be able to heal mass casulties
Yes, I'm sure that isn't an unintended side-effect of the system you're now calling a feature. Because it absolutely makes sense that if players are alive and willing to act as doctors that they shouldn't be able to heal everyone within an amount of time that doesn't make it extremely undesirable to attempt.
it might make sense in your vision for the game, but not in mine, so this is basically irrelevant, you could attempt to offer a defence of why your approach is better than them being forced to resort to podcloning or calling the shuttle instead though.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:25 am
by sinfulbliss
1000 hour medic mains saying organ decay is a skill issue because they know how to prevent it and noobies can learn this fairly easily.
Counterpoint: there is no downside to making it marginally easier for new doctors to heal patients by slowing organ decay, and/or making operating computers work with stasis beds. Formaldehyde and epi-pens have been around for a very long time, haven't they? Saying "just have people use them" is a nonstarter. The whole question being asked here is why shouldn't operating computers work with stasis beds? The only arguments I've heard have been, because epi-pens are easy to order from cargo, and it's not a big deal. That doesn't at all address the thread. The other argument which at least addressed the thread was Cobby's which suggested it's good to make revivals harder for doctors over time.
And yet, heretic was changed drastically to prevent round-removal. Coders and admins always talk about it being important to keep people in the game, and that playstyles which RR people are bad, even as traitors. Even traitor murder objectives have been modified to where RR is unnecessary. It's contradictory to make all these changes, with the intention of keeping people in the game, while also stubbornly pitting oneself against making revivals marginally more tolerable for new overwhelmed doctors.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:34 pm
by Cobby
Sexmaster wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:29 pm
Cobby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:17 pm
On the topic of newbie crutch: I don’t care to the extent that I have explicitly said I want MD not to be associated with a newbie job.
This is really out of your control unless you intend on timelocking doctor, which sounds like a terrible idea. New people aren't really going to know that MD is a difficult job without someone explicitly telling them.
Also, everyone has to start med somewhere, making it a pain in the ass to learn in the first place is going to make it more annoying for the people trying to get revived, and the doctors trying to learn.
If med is such an important job, it would be nice to see something that actually assists with healing massive amounts of dead people when shit does hit the fan, such as nukies or blob. Instead of 10 dead people with organs all non-functional because there are just too many people and not enough beds.
Im pretty sure the engineering jobs arent timelocked and they arent exactly newbie friendly. When I say i dont want it associated with a newbie job I mean on the levels of cargo tech, I'm perfectly fine with people testing the waters and the natural consequences of someone who is not efficient working on someone including myself.
More beds can be made, departments should ideally "upgrade" themselves to fit unique needs of the station (or in medicals case upgrade to prevent unique needs overwhelming them). If the playerbase refuses to utilize the fact that items can be built and moved on top of upgraded on a per-machine basis while also refusing to let their skill make up for it then yeah sometimes youre going to be running sub-optimally.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:40 pm
by Cobby
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:25 am
1000 hour medic mains saying organ decay is a skill issue because they know how to prevent it and noobies can learn this fairly easily.
Counterpoint: there is no downside to making it marginally easier for new doctors to heal patients by slowing organ decay, and/or making operating computers work with stasis beds. Formaldehyde and epi-pens have been around for a very long time, haven't they? Saying "just have people use them" is a nonstarter. The whole question being asked here is
why shouldn't operating computers work with stasis beds? The only arguments I've heard have been, because epi-pens are easy to order from cargo, and it's not a big deal. That doesn't at all address the thread. The other argument which at least addressed the thread was Cobby's which suggested it's good to make revivals harder for doctors over time.
And yet, heretic was changed drastically to prevent round-removal. Coders and admins always talk about it being important to keep people in the game, and that playstyles which RR people are bad, even as traitors. Even traitor murder objectives have been modified to where RR is unnecessary. It's contradictory to make all these changes, with the intention of keeping people in the game, while also stubbornly pitting oneself against making revivals marginally more tolerable for new overwhelmed doctors.
Im not a big heretic player so correct me if Im wrong but I dont find it "revival should be more difficult so death has impact" while also "we dont want easy to perform complete body annihilation (obviously still some forms in the game but we dont encourage more being added)" contradicting.
It's a balancing act, you want death to matter but you dont want to hand mass-death out like candy. My general philosophy for medical is it should be as rewarding to take someone out of the round as it is bringing them back in, and you cant have that when you get easy-access lolnope tactics.
Swerving back into thread topic, my main goal is to have 2 distinct items with tradeoffs (i like tradeoffs). Having something thats the best of both worlds just encourages you to choose that one consistently and takes that decision making (Im aware its not exactly a hard decision currently which is why I want them to be more competitive) which takes out the complexity of the game imo.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:26 pm
by oranges
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:25 am It's contradictory to make all these changes, with the intention of keeping people in the game, while also stubbornly pitting oneself against making revivals marginally more tolerable for new overwhelmed doctors.
it's not, you're conflating the fact that we want to see less round removals for individual antags (because it's only fun for that player), with the fact that revival isn't meant to be easy.
Those are two unrelated things, it's just that one feeds inputs, more or less into the other.
We can simultaneously not want mass round removal from individual antags, and hold the position that revival is hard, and that is absolutely not contradictory, and every action we've made so far is entirely consistent with that position.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:41 pm
by Agux909
Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:40 pm
Swerving back into thread topic, my main goal is to have 2 distinct items with tradeoffs (i like tradeoffs). Having something thats the best of both worlds just encourages you to choose that one consistently and takes that decision making (Im aware its not exactly a hard decision currently which is why I want them to be more competitive) which takes out the complexity of the game imo.
What's the current plan to make them more competitive?
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:51 pm
by Cobby
nothing concrete yet I just know I dont want everything to be provided under le epic stasis bed :smug:
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:33 am
by Pandarsenic
If we need filler we could jack the surgery speed bonus of a surgery table like way up, like HUGE, and see if people start using them. Then, if it's too much, dial it back with a couple of nerfs until it still feels good but not excessive.
Another thing to consider is that giving medical access to more roundstart formaldehyde and/or an easier way to inject 1u doses of it would be a significant buff to surgery beds relative to stasis, though probably still not enough to make them worth using.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:23 pm
by Agux909
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:33 am
If we need filler we could jack the surgery speed bonus of a surgery table like way up, like HUGE, and see if people start using them. Then, if it's too much, dial it back with a couple of nerfs until it still feels good but not excessive.
Another thing to consider is that giving medical access to more roundstart formaldehyde and/or an easier way to inject 1u doses of it would be a significant buff to surgery beds relative to stasis, though probably still not enough to make them worth using.
Maybe have a middle ground with both? Instead of amping up surgery table speed by, say, 100%, do it by 50%, and slow down stasis surgery speed by 50%.
And if making formal available roundstart somehow is too much of a compromise, remove the secondary effect of reduced surgery speed from Cryostaline.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:01 am
by cacogen
Given the operating computer is a QoL and instructive thing, it shouldn't come into balance considerations at all.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:55 am
by Mothblocks
FWIW Cobby already told me a while back that linking operating computers with stasis beds for the sake of showing health/what surgery steps to do was fine. Getting advanced surgeries is different and definitely balance related and can absolutely be considered.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:27 am
by cacogen
Yeah, that would be fair game to limit on stasis beds if deemed necessary (though I think revival is already tedious enough).
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:38 am
by Pandarsenic
Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:55 am
FWIW Cobby already told me a while back that linking operating computers with stasis beds for the sake of showing health/what surgery steps to do was fine.
I fucking beg you both, I cannot emphasize enough how much new MD players need this.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:25 pm
by iwishforducks
i saw mothblocks start an advanced surgery on a surgery table and then drag the corpse to a stasis bed
when will you guys revert this already?
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:29 pm
by cacogen
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:25 pm
i saw mothblocks start an advanced surgery on a surgery table and then drag the corpse to a stasis bed
Is this bug abuse? Why does he want it to be so torturous for the players when he’s happy to exploit oversights to make it easier for himself?
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:42 pm
by Jonathan Gupta
actually 1984.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:28 pm
by iwishforducks
cacogen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:29 pm
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:25 pm
i saw mothblocks start an advanced surgery on a surgery table and then drag the corpse to a stasis bed
Is this bug abuse? Why does he want it to be so torturous for the players when he’s happy to exploit oversights to make it easier for himself?
it's not a conspiracy theory you dunce. god you are so stupid. she just used a shortcut. there's no ulterior motive.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:19 pm
by Jonathan Gupta
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:28 pm
cacogen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:29 pm
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:25 pm
i saw mothblocks start an advanced surgery on a surgery table and then drag the corpse to a stasis bed
Is this bug abuse? Why does he want it to be so torturous for the players when he’s happy to exploit oversights to make it easier for himself?
it's not a conspiracy theory you dunce. god you are so stupid. she just used a shortcut. there's no ulterior motive.
actually 1984
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:27 pm
by iain0
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:28 pmit's not a conspiracy theory you dunce. god you are so stupid. she just used a shortcut. there's no ulterior motive.
Shortcut? To allow advanced surgeries that require an operating computer to be performed on a stasis bed. While the exact change is to delink those two things to prevent it and create "more diverse bed usage"?
It's a work around. And since its working around an intended change, it's more of an exploit. It's also pretty well known and has been for a very long time now, though as always the new players probably suffer most from not knowing all the "tricks".
Otherwise it would just be a QOL change to allow advanced tend wounds directly on stasis beds rather than doing a really dumb shuffle of the corpse between two tables. But I'm pretty sure trying to PR that will get blocked as its directly against what this original change intended. (and if it isn't blocked, bring it on, advanced tend is pretty much the only real thing lost when these things were unlinked)
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:46 pm
by cacogen
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:28 pm
cacogen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:29 pm
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:25 pm
i saw mothblocks start an advanced surgery on a surgery table and then drag the corpse to a stasis bed
Is this bug abuse? Why does he want it to be so torturous for the players when he’s happy to exploit oversights to make it easier for himself?
it's not a conspiracy theory you dunce. god you are so stupid. she just used a shortcut. there's no ulterior motive.
Yeah, it's definitely not a conspiracy theory because there's no conspiracy and you saw it with your own eyes. If what you're saying is accurate, he was taking advantage of unintended functionality to get around a limitation deliberately imposed for balance reasons, while simultaneously supporting that limitation here.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:41 am
by Super Aggro Crag
that's cringe
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:52 am
by Farquaar
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:21 pm
by oranges
Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:55 am
FWIW Cobby already told me a while back that linking operating computers with stasis beds for the sake of showing health/what surgery steps to do was fine. Getting advanced surgeries is different and definitely balance related and can absolutely be considered.
so is anyone going to do it or is this thread just full of whiners?
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:23 pm
by Cobby
Yes linking to stasis beds is fine outside of providing additional surgeries.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:29 pm
by iwishforducks
oranges wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:21 pm
Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:55 am
FWIW Cobby already told me a while back that linking operating computers with stasis beds for the sake of showing health/what surgery steps to do was fine. Getting advanced surgeries is different and definitely balance related and can absolutely be considered.
so is anyone going to do it or is this thread just full of whiners?
nobody cares about being able to see health because you can use your health scanner
also the surgery steps aren't helpful in general because 1. it doesnt show a picture of the tool 2. sometimes they're "Fix brain" - if i dont know the surgery steps to a surgery then i'll pull up the wiki because it actually tells me what tool im supposed to use
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:18 pm
by Rohen_Tahir
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:29 pm
oranges wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:21 pm
Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:55 am
FWIW Cobby already told me a while back that linking operating computers with stasis beds for the sake of showing health/what surgery steps to do was fine. Getting advanced surgeries is different and definitely balance related and can absolutely be considered.
so is anyone going to do it or is this thread just full of whiners?
nobody cares about being able to see health because you can use your health scanner
also the surgery steps aren't helpful in general because 1. it doesnt show a picture of the tool 2. sometimes they're "Fix brain" - if i dont know the surgery steps to a surgery then i'll pull up the wiki because it actually tells me what tool im supposed to use
If you can't figure out the tool from the surgery step name it's probably hemostat.
If it's not hemostat it's scalpel.
If it's not scalpel it's hands.
Save for wound-related surgeries the only noteworthy exception to this is the fat removal surgery.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:03 am
by iwishforducks
i also forgot to say that if someone stole the LIMITED supply surgery computers to make them hook up with the stasis beds just so they can see HEALTH i would legit go psycho mode and probably kill and space them
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:40 am
by Pandarsenic
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:03 am
i also forgot to say that if someone stole the
LIMITED supply surgery computers to make them hook up with the stasis beds just so they can see
HEALTH i would legit go psycho mode and probably kill and space them
Just put the surgery bed to another side of the surgery computer, assuming this doesn't break that.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:26 am
by iwishforducks
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:40 am
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:03 am
i also forgot to say that if someone stole the
LIMITED supply surgery computers to make them hook up with the stasis beds just so they can see
HEALTH i would legit go psycho mode and probably kill and space them
Just put the surgery bed to another side of the surgery computer, assuming this doesn't break that.
operating computers can only link to one table/bed at a time
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:34 am
by Booktower
Cobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:33 pm
stasis beds arent truly limited, you can plaster them all over the place if you wanted. The "issue" is you dont, but that doesnt mean it's something i just dont have to consider until you do it every round.
Trying to explain that its a nonissue then going on a soapbox about how its inconvenient to the point where it matters as to whether you do it or not seems to suggest it isnt just a nonissue, the more well hidden a body is (or the less time you put in time to get them alive) the more you have to work on the body (perhaps to the point where borging/new body is preferable, which comes with its own pros and cons). That gets thrown out of the window when you add stasis beds into the mix because you dont have to have someone actively working on them.
Again, if the only downside of the bed is that there are limited amounts in a game where you can easily get the components to make more of them, you're going to have to do a better job selling me that they're not super strong.
Hiding a body does not get thrown out of the window at all, stasis beds cannot prevent decay of a body while it is hidden and not in medbay yet.
Re: Allow operating computers to work with stasis beds again
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:56 pm
by Cobby
Which is why I added the portion about (or the less time you put in time to get them alive). A body that is not catered to outside of a reasonable timeframe should also come with downsides, hence why stasis beds getting thrown into the mix hampers that.
The generic design is the more ignored a body goes be it through hiding or not in the process of fixing it, the more work needs to be done to fix it when you do get around to doing it.