/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

What I find most interesting from this entire discussion is the idea many people have that Stun Prods are essentially a piece of standard issue equipment that everyone on the station has.

Players misbehaving, misusing the tools provided on the server, and acting in a way that isn't conducive to good gameplay is a problem for the rules and admins.

Coders should not be adding/removing/changing items like this in an attempt to administrate the playerbase through code. If validhunting and vigilantism are problems on our server, it's probably best solved by addressing the standards we set for the playerbase and what is expected of them then trying to take away the toys they do it with. There may be circumstances where that's not the case, where the presence of certain items is actively encouraging people to behave a certain way, but I don't think that's the situation here.

Please let the administrative staff solve this issue, if it's truly an issue, rather than jump to removing items like this. It's a bit hasty.

-off topic part removed-

An0n3 wrote:Players misbehaving, misusing the tools provided on the server, and acting in a way that isn't conducive to good gameplay is a problem for the rules and admins.

Coders should not be adding/removing/changing items like this in an attempt to administrate the playerbase through code. If validhunting and vigilantism are problems on our server, it's probably best solved by addressing the standards we set for the playerbase and what is expected of them then trying to take away the toys they do it with. There may be circumstances where that's not the case, where the presence of certain items is actively encouraging people to behave a certain way, but I don't think that's the situation here.

Please let the administrative staff solve this issue, if it's truly an issue, rather than jump to removing items like this. It's a bit hasty.

These items literally don't serve any purpose but to

a) enable antags. Which is dumb, antags should get cool antag weapons. I'm still on the fence about spears though because they do help a bit in rev, but even then I'd rather see a hoard of toolboxers than spear-wielders.
b) enable validhunters. Boo hoo.
c) enable people trying to non-violently subdue someone breaking into their work area. Ok, that's fine, but I'd rather have a more general solution to this problem than "everyone has a stunprod and cablecuffs!". And the proposed nerf to stunprods not fitting in backpacks absolutely ruins this option anyway. And quite frankly, not everyone has access to cables on-the-spot. Like the bartender, what's the bartender supposed to do if someone is breaking in? Geneticist? Virologist? What if someone's breaking into Xenobiology or Toxins? Run off to grab wires? Make them in advance? Fuck that.

So the way I see it, the items are poor fixes to bigger problems that encourage people to play the game in a negative way.

to answer one of your points: The bartender shotguns them then smashes vodka on them until they braindead, the geneticist beats you into crit then monkies you, and the virologist weakens you with a punch and sends you out the space pipe.

MisterPerson wrote:-snip-

All three problems you explained are behavioral problems with the playerbase.

No offense but correcting those issues and figuring out solutions to them isn't your job.

Let the other half of this machine do that work. If you have situations in mind that have shown this to be a huge problem to you you should bring that up with the administrative staff instead of coding in your own fixes, please. What I'm hearing is that you don't hate these items, you hate what you've seen people to most commonly use them for. The task of correcting that is a job for the other side of this whole shebang.

Bartender has a shotgun and has wires in his backroom iirc along with the metal and glass
Who the fuck breaks into Viro or Genetics
Why are people breaking into places deep inside one of the more secure departments

Anyways, I don't think this change would see an increase in lethality being used. Just a decrease in shitty player behavior and mindsets.

Not all antags have access to anags weapons.
Not all antags that have access to antag weapons choose, or wish to have them. Are you really suggesting all traitors for example, must spend their tc's on weapons, narrowing their creativity? Also getting arresting with a prod as opposed to an e-sword is a significan difference.

Do you really think they 'enable' valid hunters?
Valid hunters will hunt valids regardless of what you do to nerf items.
If they can't stun and cuff people, then they are perfectly allowed to just disarm them and beat them to death.

cablecuffs let any non sec, subdue people across an awfully large number of situations, not just shitters breaking into places. How am I supposed to kidnap somehow without cuffs? break into cargo and hack the autolathe? Rob the brig? Yeah, naw.
The barman has a shotgun for a reason, and other departments are just that - departments, just because on guy doesn't have cuffs, doesn't somehow make their existence invalid.

And for the 20th time, stun prods aren't even that prevaliant. science and engineering has access to large numbers of powercells - cargo can order some if need be, but other then that, there's like, 2 publicly available cells on the entire map. For 60 people.

This is seriously a non issue. Are we going to hugbox it so much that you have zero worry about ever getting stunned by a non sec/e-bow traitor ever?

Edit: why is Hug-box censored, what the hell.

@An0n3:
The task of correcting the tools available to antagonists is an administrative one? That makes no sense.

lumipharon wrote:Not all antags have access to anags weapons.
Not all antags that have access to antag weapons choose, or wish to have them. Are you really suggesting all traitors for example, must spend their tc's on weapons, narrowing their creativity? Also getting arresting with a prod as opposed to an e-sword is a significan difference.

They all should.

lumipharon wrote: cablecuffs let any non sec, subdue people across an awfully large number of situations, not just shitters breaking into places. How am I supposed to kidnap somehow without cuffs? break into cargo and hack the autolathe? Rob the brig? Yeah, naw.
The barman has a shotgun for a reason, and other departments are just that - departments, just because on guy doesn't have cuffs, doesn't somehow make their existence invalid.

Not everyone having access means it's a poor solution to a universal problem.

lumipharon wrote:And for the 20th time, stun prods aren't even that prevaliant. science and engineering has access to large numbers of powercells - cargo can order some if need be, but other then that, there's like, 2 publicly available cells on the entire map. For 60 people.

If they don't matter that much, then why even have them? Clearly they do matter or nobody would give two fucks about removal.

We don't need to correct the tools available; we need to correct the attitude with which people misuse them.

TheNightingale wrote:We don't need to correct the tools available; we need to correct the attitude with which people misuse them.

Biggest complaint about changeling I've heard is that lings don't have enough murder tools available to kill people, so they have to rely on stunprods.

Ling isn't heavily reliant on stun prods because prods are op game breaking or anything. Ling is dependent on them because ling is garbage, intentionally so. If you can't stand to make antags decent while the improvised weapons are around I don't know what to say to you this compunction is long standing and bizarre.

Cult has its own weapons leaving what rev? For whom sheer numbers might prevent the few easily made prods coming to the fore and that is fine the real weapon in rev is those numbers.

Edit: Lings can kill people that is not the problem. They are one dimensional and expected to be jacks of all trades. Getting better at killing people will just induce another crippling nerf.

I'm unlocking this topic to allow conversation to continue, seeing as MisterPerson locked it and being the OP of the PR being discussed.

Just because you closed the PR doesn't mean that discussion should end abruptly here.

There really isn't anything else to add. I have no plans on doing anything else on this topic in the near future.

Which is dumb, antags should get cool antag weapons.

Security catches you with an esword or ebow it's pretty much game over. Good luck explaining that you "just found it on the ground". Get caught with some shit stick stun prod and it's a bit easier to bullshit your way out of it by claiming you made it because some dick weed was chasing you around and shoving you.

MisterPerson wrote:These items literally don't serve any purpose but to

a) enable antags. Which is dumb, antags should get cool antag weapons. I'm still on the fence about spears though because they do help a bit in rev, but even then I'd rather see a hoard of toolboxers than spear-wielders.

b) enable validhunters. Boo hoo.

Lots of things enable antags and valid hunters, some more than or equal to cablecuffs, stunprods, and spears, here's a small list of things off the top of my head.
-Doorhacking
-Camera disabling
-Access requirements
-Maintenance, literally designed to be a place for antags to do shady shit in
-AI laws
-Toxins, which has no productive purpose, I have seen a whole one person use bombs for mining in my years of playing here
-Chemistry
-Buckets
-Spray bottles
-Stuns in general
-The ability to pump plasma into the distro loop

Also toolboxes are a straight up improvement from spears because last I checked people without hats can get knocked unconscious by toolboxes to the head. As much as coders try to make it otherwise stuns are still king. Especially one hit RNG stuns that prevent you from screaming for help because you're unconscious.

MisterPerson wrote:c) enable people trying to non-violently subdue someone breaking into their work area. Ok, that's fine, but I'd rather have a more general solution to this problem than "everyone has a stunprod and cablecuffs!". And the proposed nerf to stunprods not fitting in backpacks absolutely ruins this option anyway. And quite frankly, not everyone has access to cables on-the-spot. Like the bartender, what's the bartender supposed to do if someone is breaking in? Geneticist? Virologist? What if someone's breaking into Xenobiology or Toxins? Run off to grab wires? Make them in advance? Fuck that.

So the way I see it, the items are poor fixes to bigger problems that encourage people to play the game in a negative way.

Each department used to have their own unique way of robusting folks but they were all steadily nerfed into the ground or new rules made them illegal to do.

>antags should have antag weapons and nothing else

When I started playing in the wonderful toybox/sandbox of SS13 I thought to myself "if only there was a very strict set of tools designed to do X, I hate all this freedom"

Glad to see we're finally headed towards that reality.

The only thing I agree with is the prods not fitting into backpacks, and i'm surprised this hasn't been brought up sooner. Metal rod + glass doesn't, so why would metal rod + battery + wirecutters?

The rest is just absurd.

I thought this was a joke when I heard about it but at least everyone knows better than to let this shit go through.

Coders plz think before you even want to push through this shitty changes.

You guys do know the PR was closed several hours ago?

Steelpoint wrote:You guys do know the PR was closed several hours ago?

and in the end it was just an excuse to force people to compromise. Have fun never using stun prods again.

There was no forced compromise, there isn't even a followup PR. Why do people keep saying ridiculous things like this?

Jacquerel wrote:There was no forced compromise, there isn't even a followup PR. Why do people keep saying ridiculous things like this?

Well penguin posted a picture of the comrpomise but it was deleted for some reason

Saegrimr wrote:The only thing I agree with is the prods not fitting into backpacks, and i'm surprised this hasn't been brought up sooner. Metal rod + glass doesn't, so why would metal rod + battery + wirecutters?

The rest is just absurd.

tbh I don't know why you can fit enough metal for 700 metal rods in a backpack either

it's less realism and more gameplay 'balance', in the same way they liquidated stungloves for being sneaky, they want to remove sneaky quick stunprodding from prods stored in bags. But that's an entirely subjective thing to discuss with really no real right or wrong.

Fact is that if you make stun prods bulky items, nobody will ever use them outside of random Assistants fucking around or riots/revs/cult. Lings killing their victims rather than absorbing them alive will become even more popular. Antags will have less non-lethal options. Crew will have less non-lethal options.

...and powergamers will just find something else to use.

Alex Crimson wrote:Fact is that if you make stun prods bulky items, nobody will ever use them outside of random Assistants fucking around or riots/revs/cult. Lings killing their victims rather than absorbing them alive will become even more popular. Antags will have less non-lethal options. Crew will have less non-lethal options.

...and powergamers will just find something else to use.

Lets be honest, most antags use stun prods to make it easier for them to then kill someone. Changelings get to combine a silence sting with a stun prod for a guaranteed kill while Traitors can use the prod to leave ambiguity on their antagonist status.

I will also restate my opinion that I'm wary of the idea being given that the crew need to have a stun prod on hand, or at least the implication's being given that the stun prod is highly integral to game play and the crew.

Steelpoint wrote:

Alex Crimson wrote:Fact is that if you make stun prods bulky items, nobody will ever use them outside of random Assistants fucking around or riots/revs/cult. Lings killing their victims rather than absorbing them alive will become even more popular. Antags will have less non-lethal options. Crew will have less non-lethal options.

...and powergamers will just find something else to use.

Lets be honest, most antags use stun prods to make it easier for them to then kill someone. Changelings get to combine a silence sting with a stun prod for a guaranteed kill while Traitors can use the prod to leave ambiguity on their antagonist status.

I will also restate my opinion that I'm wary of the idea being given that the crew need to have a stun prod on hand, or at least the implication's being given that the stun prod is highly integral to game play and the crew.

so now lings will just armblade people to death. Traitors will esword people to death.

If you want to remove stuns then by all means. I hate stuns. However this isnt removing stuns, just the stun weapon non-Sec players get.

I just don't understand it.

I could understand the stun gloves being removed, they were kind of cheap with how hard they were to see, and they were replaced with visible items.

But this.

You're stripping away the ability for any non antagonist that isn't sec to defend themselves.

You're taking away the ability for people that aren't security to deal hostile people in a way that won't kill them.

Are only sec officers allowed to get into fights now? Are they the only ones allowed to fight nuke ops, or try to stop wizards?

This isn't a simple change, not in the least. This is a literal statement that this server doesn't want assistants to be able to fight against anyone in any meaningful way that isn't just stealing sec shit.

Revolution rounds are now even fucking harder on revs, cult rounds are now even fucking harder on cultists, nuke ops now just have to bomb sec and they've pretty much won.

I'm just...really? The fact that this is really up for debate, that this is the path the server is going down.

Honestly, while you're at it, you might as well go all the way with it.

>Remove any slip from water
>Remove the disarm intent
>Bare fists now hurt the attacker when attacking armored enemies
>Choking has no effect on someone with an appropriate set of gear
>Flashbangs now have no effect on syndicate hardsuits, and someone with a helmet and glasses

I'm not really mad at this, just really sad. This entire game has always flat out encouraged the assistant trying to be a hero, Be robust, get good, etc, but updates like this really spell out the fact that what people want from this game is so radically different that this server just can't exist in its current state.

It used to be a good middleground between the absolutely batshit goon, and the insanely RP-heavy bay, but this division between the coders and the players will kill this server.

This has just proven that /tg/ doesn't know what it is anymore, and it just bums me out.

Once again, everyone acts like stunprods are standard issue equipment that everyone one outside of security has.

Personally I don't mind what we do either way, but it seems people put a lot of emphasis on how important the stunprod is, when in my opinion I think it should not be this critical item.

Steelpoint wrote:Once again, everyone acts like stunprods are standard issue equipment that everyone one outside of security has.

Personally I don't mind what we do either way, but it seems people put a lot of emphasis on how important the stunprod is, when in my opinion I think it should not be this critical item.

and once again, if you dont let them have stun prods, they are going to use something else.

Just lower it to 1-2 uses. So that when you do decide to use it, it better be a damn serious situation and you better not screw up.

I honestly don't think there are any other items that furfill the same role as the stunprod that the average crew member can get their hands on.

Meaning that if we do remove stunprods, then people will resort to either knocking people into critical, or calling security.

They wont use non-lethal items. People will just grab a weapon and beat others to death in situations where they wouldve just non-lethally dealt with them.

I never even noticed many stun prods. Didnt think it was even an issue. Whenever someone broke into my workplace, i usually just died in a horribly unrobust way.

People in my workplace get beaten into crit and dumped in medbay anyway.

If they come back, they get to be an AI if they were demanding to be borged, and a borg i they wanted to be an AI.

I only have one word to say to this PR, H-U-G-B-O-X to the maximum. At least it was closed, in a rare example of mercy.