/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

I have 2 complaints about newchem.

One is the lack of a replacement for sleep toxin: a safe chem to put someone to sleep, especially for extended amounts of times. Morphine easily overdoses, Chloral is fast and causes drowsiness but gets lethal pretty fast and Neurotoxin leaves them with severe braindamage and toxin damage. Then there's the option to overdose them on 200+u of sugar which is incredibly impractical and lasts way too long(30+ minutes).

The other is the fact that many interesting poisons are traitor uplink only. Why not give some of them to the botanist plants like poison berries, deathberries or destroying angels? Or maybe through chem-botany interaction?

Aside from that, I'm very happy with newchem. The new pyrotechnics are amazing, as is the ability to finally create reagent foam.

Deathberries are good one to put crazy lethal chems in, because you have to mutate berries twice to get them

There was a PR by goof to make two new plants, one of which had Venom as a reagent which is otherwise traitor-only, and also one of the histamine generators, allowing for !FUN! things like itchpowder+formaldehyde+venom to fill them with histamine as fast as possible. It was closed though.

The traitor uplink is full of things inaccessible by crew members so I don't see much of a problem with most of those poisons being traitor only. They're not the best poisons if you know what you're doing, but on the other hand most crew don't have direct access to the best poisons anyway.

(ARANESP ARANESP ARANESP)

I don't really see the point in comparing the potency of goon chems to trek chems.

Anyone can go into the code and just buff/nerf the healing power of chems. That was never the issue. No one ever complained that tg chems 'didn't heal well enough'.

So if healing power isn't a factor, that leaves two things.
How easy it is to make?
How easy is it to use?

The (main) goon healing chems are fairly easy to make. silver uses a few things but it's not terrible complex. Flesh needs blood, which is marginally more complex, but by and large the complexity of the basic chemicals isn't that much different.

The usability is where they really diverge.
The goon chems only work in patches - a completely new method of chem distribution that so far as I have seen, is used ONLY for the goon healing chems.
If they are applied in any other way, they don't work, and also poison you.

Then we have trek chems, which work in pills (which is the same level as accessibility as patches), but also work in droppers, syringes, food, drinks, cryo, sleepers, medibot, mediborg, chem implant - literally anyway to get a chem into your body.

What is the benefit of having the healing chems only work in this one, very restrictive way? All it does is making healing more tedious. Anyone who says it's 'the doctor's job to heal people' needs to seriously think about what they're saying.

The only difference between the old and the new system, is the old system involved putting someone in a sleeper and pressing the right buttons. The new system involves mdbay being stocked with literally mountains of patches and crap, and the doctor clicking the hurt guy with the right patch. How is this any better?

Stocking up on a thousand units of healing chem is also irrelevent, since goonchem itself introduced OD and addiction, not to mntion the long standing suggestion of simply reducing the amount of total reagents you can hold inside you.

latest PR! In this PR, goonchem extends it's slimy maw into the food and drinks industry. Also, he finally fixed medborgs to placate people.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9198

Well ingestion is way more versatile than topical applications, since you can take it by pills, syringes, eyedropper, cryo, drinking or eating, IV, and probably some other ways I can't think of. Topical chems like styptic and silver sulf have to be prepared into patches before being able to be used, unless you have some gimmicky alternative like a spray bottle, foam grenade or a bottle for someone else to splash on you, so they're a lot less flexible than, say, salglu, which you could feasibly fill a 100u booze bottle with and take a swig of whenever you wanted. That's fine for salglu, since it's weak and takes time, but for chems like styptic powder which instaheal (in addition to lasting healing), it'd be overpowered, and being restricted to patches is a good balancer

Also just a note, an Odysseus could synthesize stable omnizine if a mediborg injected a monkey with it and had it gibbed and grinded. Uber powergamey and would require an Odysseus of course, but still possible to end up with infinite patches of it

No he can't.
Can_synth = 0 stops that.

Also he basically admitted to copypastaing this from... somewhere.

Incoming pointed this out:

I favored updating trekchem (nerfing the 1000u trick for example) over goonchem. I also really really really do not like the idea of "goonchem for the sake of goonchem" and made this one of my biggest points.

Now here we are trying to import a fuckton of useless goon memes.

Why.

Dank memes were removed from the PR.

iamgoofball wrote:

iyaerP wrote:Bring back trekchems. Keep the stupid Overdosing and bullshit if you have to, but trekchems were bestchems.

Why? I showed how the new chems are either better or equal to the old ones.

You put forward an argument for why new chems are better than or equal to old one, to which a number of legitimate counterpoints have been presented.

Most notably, the touch-only application issue, which is problematic because all the "infrastructure" around chemistry code that isn't chemistry itself (Such as Cyborg Hyposprays, the CMO's hypo, and chemical implants) was designed under the assumption that healing chemicals were applied via ingestion.

So, something to keep in mind:

Hyposprays, and Chem Implants don't proc reaction_mob() at all. Same with sleepers. It just directly inserts the reagents. Therefore, no toxin damage from ingesting, but also no bonus healing. I thought this was put on the wiki page, but I guess not.

If this is not the case, I will change it to be so.

I still think being able to drink styptic powder would be both silly and OP, maybe if it didn't give you the instant healing and only did the residual healing when ingested it'd be alright

I dont see the big deal. Patches are better than pills anyways, no? They can be applied through hardsuits and apply most of the healing instantly.

I thought one of the intrinsic goals of goonchem was to screw with medibots, mediborgs and sleepers et al. 'cause chemist more skilled than peasant doctors/crew so depending on chemist = better.

Overhaul seems to be increasingly pointless as time goes on.

Problem is that most rounds I've played in medbay, the chemists are almost universally unreliable. They usually fuck off immediately without making any healing patches, and the few times they actually stay at the desk, they're too busy making hellnades to fill any orders or healing chems

Shaps wrote:Problem is that most rounds I've played in medbay, the chemists are almost universally unreliable. They usually fuck off immediately without making any healing patches, and the few times they actually stay at the desk, they're too busy making hellnades to fill any orders or healing chems

Makes sense because who wants to go through the process of making healing chems with a limited supply when Trekchems were infinitely easier to make and deliver to patients.
Here's my arrangement though. Goonchem is good - for Goonstation. Trekchem is good - For TG station.

>Insert large beaker
>Set to 20 units
>Click aluminum, hydrogen, oxygen, sulphuric acid
>Eject beaker and put in chemmaster
>Create 4 patches, 20u size, this heals ~60 brute on average

Congratulations, that's all it takes to be not shit. Just do that a whole bunch until one of the desks is full, then...

>Brew up 60-90u of ammonia in a large beaker
>Put 20 units of silver, sulfur, chlorine and oxygen in a beaker
>Pour 20u of the ammonia in it, put it in the chemmaster, serve up in either 20u or 25u patches that heal a tasty ~40 burn damage

That's literally 90% of your job. You can wander off and do whatever as long as you stop back in to fill any requests for botany or science that are needed and keep the tables stocked with patches

Shaps wrote:Congratulations, that's all it takes to be not shit. Just do that a whole bunch until one of the desks is full, then...

I like how you boiled down what everybody screamed was wrong with trekchem, and now we've got this. The exact same thing with a different name and a few more steps.
Well, that and shoving 50 million pills in your face but OD mechanics would have solved that and not had to have gone through this retarded shitfling.

The non-medicinal things are funner, I will say that

explosives and toxins are at their all-time deadliest

Saegrimr wrote:

Shaps wrote:Congratulations, that's all it takes to be not shit. Just do that a whole bunch until one of the desks is full, then...

I like how you boiled down what everybody screamed was wrong with trekchem, and now we've got this. The exact same thing with a different name and a few more steps.
Well, that and shoving 50 million pills in your face but OD mechanics would have solved that and not had to have gone through this retarded shitfling.

There are other, more advanced chems that you can make if you put the time and effort in to go the extra mile, but a ridiculous amount of chemists can't even do the bare minimum

Saegrimr wrote:

Shaps wrote:Congratulations, that's all it takes to be not shit. Just do that a whole bunch until one of the desks is full, then...

I like how you boiled down what everybody screamed was wrong with trekchem, and now we've got this. The exact same thing with a different name and a few more steps.
Well, that and shoving 50 million pills in your face but OD mechanics would have solved that and not had to have gone through this retarded shitfling.

If chemists could mix doctors delight just fine why cant they mix these chems just as easily?

To be bluntly honest we could have gotten the exact same results we have right now, but with far less controversy, if we simply added in a overdose mechanic to the base TrekChems rather than swap over to GoonChem.

Aside from the larger selection of posions, I feel this whole debacle was just swapping to a Goon system for the sake of doing it.

You could solve the problem of mediborgs being useless by giving them a recharging synthflesh spraybottle and charcoal injector (if they don't already have one).

Steelpoint wrote:To be bluntly honest we could have gotten the exact same results we have right now, but with far less controversy, if we simply added in a overdose mechanic to the base TrekChems rather than swap over to GoonChem.

Aside from the larger selection of posions, I feel this whole debacle was just swapping to a Goon system for the sake of doing it.

The additional chemicals outside of just the healing stuff have added a lot of interesting mechanics. At this point, outside of "goofball fix your shit", i think goonchem has been worth the effort. I mean...ghetto flamethrowers are now a thing, and its great.

Alex Crimson wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:To be bluntly honest we could have gotten the exact same results we have right now, but with far less controversy, if we simply added in a overdose mechanic to the base TrekChems rather than swap over to GoonChem.

Aside from the larger selection of posions, I feel this whole debacle was just swapping to a Goon system for the sake of doing it.

The additional chemicals outside of just the healing stuff have added a lot of interesting mechanics. At this point, outside of "goofball fix your shit", i think goonchem has been worth the effort. I mean...ghetto flamethrowers are now a thing, and its great.

Flamethrowers always were ghetto. The fact that there's a potentially more powerful version that fits in your pocket is a different story, however.

I feel despite the time since goonchem has been introduced the discussion is still as relevant as ever.

Goonchem delivered on nothing that could not be just as easily added to oldchem. Instead of a basic robust (albeit sometimes boring) basis, we now have a clusterfuck of random chemicals into which some resemblance of balance has been smacked into. There is NOTHING that makes goonchem superior as a basis to add things such as addiction and random healing into. Things such as doctors delicht and tricord could have just been rebalanced and interesting offensive chemicals added.

The role of Doctor is no where improved. Healing still comes down to either smacking people full of burn/brute patches or charcoal or stuff them in the cryo. Nobody even bothers to make a better cryo mix nowadays. And all the heater did was add tedium to mixing chemicals (and than there was that hilarious part where beakers defined the heat and not the actual chemicals). Nobody even bothers with sleepers any more since they now just suck.


Reverting is STILL the best option


Goonchem has been a farce from the start and it has been stated countless of times.

The chronological response to the players saying goonchem sucks at every step:

"no no its not implemented yet, you will like it once its implemented"
"no no you just need to get used to it"
"no no let us fix the bugs and people will like it"
"no no WE think 75% of people want it reverted because of things we are going to change"
"no no its way too late to revert now, too much work has been put into it"
"no no I don't care you still want it reverted I say no so it stays no"

It is still seriously disgusting how the coding community handled this change. Don't even get me started on the started on the state in which goonchem was first introduced.

Is there a point to cryostylane?

Reacting with oxygen inside of containers means that pills/patches of it are pretty worthless

Why do you have free oxygen in your patches/pills?

Malkevin wrote:Why do you have free oxygen in your patches/pills?

Cryostylane will slowly consume oxygen reagent to lower the temperature of reagents in the same container. This cools down reagents in the beaker (or pill, syringe, patch, food). In a person's body it cools the person down.

There doesn't seem to be much point to it as a chemical except for cryo-in-a-patch attempts, which is inherently kind of broken because you need two patches at minimum assuming you can come up with a good mix for it.

Two things I'd really really like to see addressed

1. Saline Glucose needs some kind of buff. As it is, it has a 33% chance to heal .5 brute and burn per tick. Meanwhile, drinks like milk and tomato juice have a 20% to heal 1 brute/burn (only one damage type per drink, but still). When it comes to healing either brute or burn, you're literally better off just getting a drink from the bartender (doubly so if you can get both milk and tomato juice). Salglu used to be really OP before, but it's useless as is. 20u of salglu (like from the sleepers) will heal a resounding 16 points of both types of damage. Either increase the chance of healing, decrease the metabolization rate even more, made it heal more damage, or even help regenerate blood like iron and nutriment does

2. Nerf morphine knockouts holy shit. Morphine metabolizes at .2u/tick like salglu and such, and after having morphine in your body for 36 ticks, every tick after that adds 3 seconds to your sleeping counter. It takes 7.2u of morphine to hit 36 ticks, and every .2u from there adds another 3 seconds to your time unconscious (or rather, 3 byond seconds, which is more equal to ~5-6 real seconds, keep that in mind). 10u of morphine will knock you out for around 42 seconds, 20u equals 192 seconds, and so on and so forth. As a traitor doctor (or anyone standing near a sleeper really) you can stealthily inject someone with enough morphine to knock them out for ~8 real life minutes without any chance for them to fight back

Whats wrong with it healing so little? Its not meant to be curing critical injuries. Considering how easy it is to make you should be able to churn out 50u patches of the stuff. Why you people seem to churn out pointless 10u patches i will never know.

I'll refer to my previous comment.

If salglu is weak, it's not worth using. It's not even at tricord's "add-to-cryo" level. It barely adds anything to cryo, and it's useless in patches because styptic/silversulf heal upfront based on volume anyway.
If salglu is strong, it becomes the norm. There is no penalty for dosing up on 1000u of it, so that will return if salglu is buffed enough.

A solution for it would have to involve something more than just modifying how much it heals.

I'm pretty sure injecting someone with salt and sugar would fuck up their kidneys if the quantity is too high, there should be an overdose limit - even if it is really high.
Then you could make it not crap without being too OP.


By the way, instead of overdosing being an arbitary "this chemical has been in my system for longer than X number of ticks so now I'm going to do stuff, but if you wait for one dose to run out then you can have a full dose again no probs" chemicals should decompose into waste chemicals, which are slowly purged from the body but if they go beyond a certain point the host suffers toxin damage etc.

Cycle counts aren't even used in overdosing. They're used in a handful of reagents like chloral hydrate, sulfonal, every single alcohol, and a few others. Cycle counts are actually a fun mechanic if you experiment. For example, you can fit sulfonal and omnizine into the same patch so that sulfonal's damage is invisible. Throw in some styptic powder to make the patch convincingly beneficial to the victim who uses it. A while later the sulfonal's cycle count hits its magic number and they get knocked right out. Once the omnizine wears off, they start taking damage and they can't do anything about it. This also works with chloral and I made an amazing ghetto-amanitin patch by using antihol and insulin to make the chloral invisible until the damage kicks in and rapidly kills them, but then someone (not goofball) messed with cycle counts, which broke everything.

Overdoses are more like "whoops you took too much, time to spoil the entire reagent until it's 100% purged." Which is a funky system with its own problems but I don't mind it too much.

So I don't know how this never came up before, but the old Trekchem problem of filling yourself up with a ridiculous amount of healing chems and just regenerating endlessly is very much still a thing. You can fill yourself up on styptic powder and silver sulf (very easy to mass produce via chemistry, plus there's 250u worth of patches of both in each of the ~7 medivendors), and have a constant 2 brute/burn healed per tick. While it's not quite as effective while fighting other people, since they can just keep beating you down once you're in crit, it allows you to keep popping up against NPC's and makes it impossible for them to kill you, since they ignore you while you're in crit, giving you time to recover and get back up

I realized this last night when we got clown bombed and I was getting honked by ~7 clowns at once, but I just kept getting back up from crit again and again, very helpful

Malkevin wrote:I'm pretty sure injecting someone with salt and sugar would fuck up their kidneys if the quantity is too high, there should be an overdose limit - even if it is really high.
Then you could make it not crap without being too OP.


By the way, instead of overdosing being an arbitary "this chemical has been in my system for longer than X number of ticks so now I'm going to do stuff, but if you wait for one dose to run out then you can have a full dose again no probs" chemicals should decompose into waste chemicals, which are slowly purged from the body but if they go beyond a certain point the host suffers toxin damage etc.

Saline solution IVs are literally what hospitals use to rehydrate someone when they are unable to drink or something and need medical rehydration

Yeah, but its like a few ml drop every few seconds, they're not injecting the entire bag into them at once.

It is a suppository.

iyaerP wrote:It is a suppository.

Up yours.

Styptic and silversulf had a much higher depletion rate and charcoal purges other chems while healing a relatively uncommon damage type. Salbutamol is a powerful anti-crit though. When styptic/sulf were buffed back to normal depletion rate, they became strong again. Not quite as good as tricord was for stacking 500u, but still viable.

Isn't Styptic Powder and Silver Sulf supposed to damage you if you have it in your body? I thought it was supposed to be a touch based instant heal chem only. Not a heal over time like the old chems.

Tokiko2 wrote:Isn't Styptic Powder and Silver Sulf supposed to damage you if you have it in your body? I thought it was supposed to be a touch based instant heal chem only. Not a heal over time like the old chems.

It causes tox damage on ingest, no by having it in your body. Obviously that's a bit dumb, but again, who cares.

Cyanide, coniine, and intro


15u of those 3 mixed is capable of killing you in 5 seconds.

Oh and they can be reproduced in the odysseyus

If you get defibbed you're literally fucked for the next 30 minutes.

Please black list those.

Tricord and DD don't need a nerf. The whole concept of overdosing and addiction solve the MAKE 500 UNITS OF PILLS AND CHUG EM, and that was the only problem.

Although the fact that service borgs can no longer MAKE DD takes away one of the only cool things aboot them.

Revert Goonchem, keep overdosing please. Is there a poll for this?

Personally the reason I prefer Trekchem is because it was a well-organised system where every type of damage had its drug. There were also more potent drugs, which were more difficult to make and often direct upgrades of the basic drugs. In Goonchem, there's an ungodly number of steps that go into making basic drugs. Not to mention it's a clusterfuck of drugs that are all special-snowflake and don't seem to be interrelated the way Trekchem was - and are impossible to memorise.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Trekchem is just more fun in general and I think that's why it should be our Chen system.

The names just sounded more spacey and cool.
rip dexalin, rip kelotane, rip dermaline

The chems themselves were also more useful.

RIP DD, Tricord. RIP non-pathetic medibots.

Jesus christ these synthflesh patches are OP. Instant heals? What? Nerf that shit.

invisty wrote:Jesus christ these synthflesh patches are OP. Instant heals? What? Nerf that shit.

le old bruisepacks face

Don't fucking nerf it, it's basically one of the only actually potent healing chems

PKPenguin321 wrote:

invisty wrote:Jesus christ these synthflesh patches are OP. Instant heals? What? Nerf that shit.

le old bruisepacks face

Don't fucking nerf it, it's basically one of the only actually potent healing chems

did you even read the post on the front page about how styptic and silv. Sulf. are better at healing than synthflesh and/or bicard or did you gloss over it because heresy