/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:12 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

It probably fucks up the anti ai-tracking thing it has and whoever coded it didn't want to deal with it. Probably.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:16 am**

If you're worried about the AI and traitors, give the traitors more items to help it beat the AI. Getting rid of the AI is a retarded idea.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:16 am**

The thing is TC changes are very easy to tweak and revert, if a few days after merging a TC change we discover that its broken everything it takes all but a minute to put up a revert PR and push it through.

I think the powers that be simply do not want to try a easy fix attempt that can easily be reverted for some reason.

I also hope I'm not getting banned from github, but that's off topic.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:25 am**

it fits. you just have to actually like, name it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:32 am**

I should also note that Cheridan permanently banned me from the coderbus IRC for simply asking if we could discuss the TC alteration PR.

He appears to be fixated that I'm going on some kind of political campaign against him, and he seemed really angry towards me.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:40 am**

And no doubt these comments are further evidence of it in some peoples mind, in this and the armor thread you've mentioned it.
Though I don't blame you trying to lay some tracks ahead of time before you potentially get wrecked.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:39 am**

Overall I just dislike how Cheridan is shutting down methods of communication and feedback on these PR's, you can't demand to people to get on git and give feedback there while at the same time banning and shutting down people and PR's when they do give their opinion.

I also disagree with Aran merging the revert PR after Cheridan locked and limited the PR to only maintainers being able to make a post.

This scenario shows a clear lack of respect for the playerbase from coderbus, or at least the main guy in charge.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:57 am**

If Paprika is banned for being an asshole, this guy shouldn't be allowed to touch codebus with a 50 foot pole.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:31 am**

Stop making coderbus bitch threads in general chat

Holy shit there's a fucking coderbus forum for a reason

Moved

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:15 am**

I'll put this as short as humanly possible.
Literally as the nerfs and changes, whether its to the combat,gamemodes, or traitors in general have greatly reduced that /tg/ station was. You can go back a year in a half to a two years ago and see the game was fucking fine. Nobody needed TC increases, there wasn't a power creep, armor wasn't too effective, violence wasn't TOO deadly, it was seriously some good old fashion 2d spacemen thunderdome action. So much useless changes have been made that you've destroyed long standing gamemodes because of stupid shit.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:16 am**

People are starting to try and keep discussion about coders out of the development forums Vekter specifically because the coder forum admins overseeing it have proven well... easy to displease?

As far as I can see there is very little point in players contributing to the code base to try and change the game. The pattern of agitation by head coders followed by reprisal reverts and eventually banning if you actually have a sufficiently differing viewpoint on game design are as poorly intentioned if not more so than hypothetical reverts voted for by the masses could be, you know the bogie man of mob reverts used to in part justify the head coder hierarchy and separation from community review. You can't vote with your contributions, if your desire differs the a leader of coders it is still a foregone conclusion. So it isn't actually a meritocracy what do we have then?

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:17 am**

Incomptinence wrote:People are starting to try and keep discussion about coders out of the development forums specifically because the coder forum admins overseeing it have proven well... easy to displease?

don't go off-topic and don't be an asshole. Same rules as everywhere else.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:51 am**

Vekter wrote:Stop making coderbus bitch threads in general chat

Holy shit there's a fucking coderbus forum for a reason

Moved

Ok so there's a coderbus forum that's there for coders and people to discuss code... my thread is about the general players being ignored by coders, exactly how the fuck is posting on the coder forum, which absolutely makes no mention of it being a place to discuss critique of coder personalities/power/influence, a better place to invite regular players to discuss coderbus behavior?

And naturally you moved it to fucking feedback, the exact fucking place that my 25-30TC thread was created, which led to a PR, which led to the super shitty PR close that I complained about. I made it really clear in my post that Feedback was never going to accomplish anything while Cheridan exercised this kind of unilateral decision-making on what's good for the game - and its always been my understanding that Feedback is for feedback on in-game shit, Admins have Admin Feedback... Coders don't have coder feedback, which is precisely part of the fucking problem I was addressing in the GENERAL forum. I imagine if I made feedback about an admin it would be moved to Between this and the NukeOp shit, it's pretty clear that the direction of the game, "If Cheridan doesn't care then you can add it, no matter how shitty it is, and if Cheridan does care he will do some absolutely amazing logical gymnatics to justify shitting on your PR's while merging his own".

I didn't think it was possible to have less faith in anything on /tg/station than coderbus but forum moderators reminded me of just how low you can sink.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:00 am**

The problem is not that there is nobody in charge.

The problem is that the person in charge has no vision on how the game should improve and suppresses all dissenting opinions.

I don't feel it is really my place to start a vote of no confidence, but I would gladly support it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:38 am**

I'd just like to remind you that the headcoder and coder headmin elections are allegedly free and open, so you could theoretically take cheridan off his thousand-year throne if you actually managed to appeal to the maintainers enough that they liked you more than him.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:03 pm**

Working your way through a small exclusive group to usurp the established leaders withstanding random drama, your own problems while performing a task repeatedly and potential banning without oversight and unknown to me avenues of recourse if such happens over months if not years? Head coders don't get deposed they burn out in such a small political landscape you basically need to disown your friends to fall out of power. If coderbus had political factions why would anything but screw the players let us mostly run wild ever prevail? If someone was to bury themselves into the code with relevant concerns today when they reached the top their agenda would be so outdated by the time they got there it would be as unpleasant for players then as random edicts from out of touch head coders are today. If you are putting prime grade beef through a hotdog factory you still get puree in the intestines on the other side.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:13 pm**

I'm going to repeat some things I said in the other thread, because I feel it's pertinent and should be seen how appauling and consistently inconsistent Cheri's behaviour is.

Amelius wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Unfortunately Cheridan shut down the PR, it might be from anger from when I enquired to him on IRC about another PR I have up.

Its a shame the PR was closed well before the 24 hour limit.
Cheri defended his shitty removal of nuke op implants to the death along with unremovable hardsuits, tried to remove the thread when he realized that he made an ass of himself, then provided a band-aid 'fix' that did nothing to rectify the core problem, all despite only having around half a person in the multi-page thread agreeing with him in any sense. Then, he turns around, in, say, the HoS armor buff reversion pull (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10689) where he straight-out claims that he cares what people think, and pushes to 'think of the players, people weren't supporting X' when he clearly doesn't give a fuck about the community or the server if they don't align with his own opinion.

This is a direct quote from him from the nuke op thread when literally everyone was telling him how shitty it was:

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!
Do we really want someone like that in charge of coderbus? Like, really? Perhaps this gem from just browsing recent pulls will shed more light on this enigmatic figure:

Cheridan wrote: Cheridan locked and limited conversation to collaborators Jul 19, 2015

actually i'm reopening this solely to make steelpoint madder; merge it or don't, i don't care
Are we making babies the be-all-end-all who decide what gets merged and doesn't? This is appauling behaviour for a head coder. It's literally 'I don't like this person, I won't discuss the merits and dismerits of this revert with him or anyone else, I'm just going to whine, complain, and try to revert everything he does regardless of what it is'. How can we possibly count on him to IMPROVE /tg/station? Especially when he shuts down discussion to try to push contested changes through, or perhaps he has, or will even revert liked changes just because he dislikes the person who merged it initially?

Full thread here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ke+implant

Seriously, someone make a poll of non-confidence for Paprika Cheridan please. It's clear enough that he's been running this branch into the ground for the past year or two. Why keep him?

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:44 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I'd just like to remind you that the headcoder and coder headmin elections are allegedly free and open, so you could theoretically take cheridan off his thousand-year throne if you actually managed to appeal to the maintainers enough that they liked you more than him.

I might be wrong, but only contributors can vote on those.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:50 pm**

The last vote was locked to maintainers only, so only the people who were in a position of power could vote or nominate themselves.

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:59 pm**

Amelius wrote:I'm going to repeat some things I said in the other thread, because I feel it's pertinent and should be seen how appauling and consistently inconsistent Cheri's behaviour is.

Amelius wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Unfortunately Cheridan shut down the PR, it might be from anger from when I enquired to him on IRC about another PR I have up.

Its a shame the PR was closed well before the 24 hour limit.
Cheri defended his shitty removal of nuke op implants to the death along with unremovable hardsuits, tried to remove the thread when he realized that he made an ass of himself, then provided a band-aid 'fix' that did nothing to rectify the core problem, all despite only having around half a person in the multi-page thread agreeing with him in any sense. Then, he turns around, in, say, the HoS armor buff reversion pull (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10689) where he straight-out claims that he cares what people think, and pushes to 'think of the players, people weren't supporting X' when he clearly doesn't give a fuck about the community or the server if they don't align with his own opinion.

This is a direct quote from him from the nuke op thread when literally everyone was telling him how shitty it was:

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!
Do we really want someone like that in charge of coderbus? Like, really? Perhaps this gem from just browsing recent pulls will shed more light on this enigmatic figure:

Cheridan wrote: Cheridan locked and limited conversation to collaborators Jul 19, 2015

actually i'm reopening this solely to make steelpoint madder; merge it or don't, i don't care
Are we making babies the be-all-end-all who decide what gets merged and doesn't? This is appauling behaviour for a head coder. It's literally 'I don't like this person, I won't discuss the merits and dismerits of this revert with him or anyone else, I'm just going to whine, complain, and try to revert everything he does regardless of what it is'. How can we possibly count on him to IMPROVE /tg/station? Especially when he shuts down discussion to try to push contested changes through, or perhaps he has, or will even revert liked changes just because he dislikes the person who merged it initially?

Full thread here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ke+implant
Seriously, someone make a poll of non-confidence for Paprika Cheridan please. It's clear enough that he's been running this branch into the ground for the past year or two. Why keep him?

Yeah man make a poll lol, that will show him

Posted: **Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:57 pm**

Code fork when?

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:39 am**

Safe to say when you can be permbanned from github and shit for disagreeing with the headcoder you know it's gone down from there.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:59 am**

You can be permabanned for repeatedly ignoring a headcoder saying that your change will not be accepted.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:31 am**

Oldman wrote::words:

This is Coderbus feedback. This forum is the Feedback forum in the Coderbus section.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:39 am**

I'm just saying Cheridan and Paprika were so buddy buddy back when Pap wasn't permabanned. Their similar mindsets in raging against anyone who disagrees with them and inability to listen to the players are telltale marks for huge fucking douchenozzles

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:43 am**

Bombadil wrote:I'm just saying Cheridan and Paprika were so buddy buddy back when Pap wasn't permabanned. Their similar mindsets in raging against anyone who disagrees with them and inability to listen to the players are telltale marks for huge fucking douchenozzles

If what you're saying isn't hyperbolic and Paprika is banned, it's extremely hypocritical to let Cheridan get away with how he's acting.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:15 am**

Luke Cox wrote:
Bombadil wrote:I'm just saying Cheridan and Paprika were so buddy buddy back when Pap wasn't permabanned. Their similar mindsets in raging against anyone who disagrees with them and inability to listen to the players are telltale marks for huge fucking douchenozzles
If what you're saying isn't hyperbolic and Paprika is banned, it's extremely hypocritical to let Cheridan get away with how he's acting.

He's not being hyperbolic. I'm sure I can dig up some old Paprika goldies to compare side-by-side with Cheris. From personal experience, it's like they're clones, while Pap was honest about being a dick, Cheri tries to pretend that he isn't, even if he really is.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:33 am**

are we going to play the "compare X person you dislike with paprika" game? that's a fun game

edit: wow we're literally doing the "compare paprika posts with cheridan posts so that we can ruin their good times on a video game because we're unable to not get anally devastated over code" game

beautiful

have this amazing meme as a reward

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:38 am**

Speaking of which, does anyone remember dannos?
He was sarcastic and snarky, just like goofball.

Edit to also include goofs edit: He also strawmanned hard, and was the loudest person to scream strawman, but his outrage over the ad hom he wasn't the inventor of was even worse.

How about you adress the meat of it, and that's that if we had a poll like with HG we'd see similar numbers for cheridan because he's made a habit of being a dink, and now he's getting louder, and there's fuck all to be done about it without some rabble rabble.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:40 am**

Falamazeer wrote:Speaking of which, does anyone remember dannos?
He was sarcastic and snarky, just like goofball.

at least I didn't take Project Lead on NTstation, spend all of it arguing with the other project lead, and then suddenly quit without warning or reason one day

:^)

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:42 am**

iamgoofball wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:Speaking of which, does anyone remember dannos?
He was sarcastic and snarky, just like goofball.
at least I didn't take Project Lead on NTstation, spend all of it arguing with the other project lead, and then suddenly quit without warning or reason one day

:^)

I don't recall ever doing that.

Or do you mean dannos? is that what happened to that butt twinkie?

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:51 am**

Falamazeer wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:Speaking of which, does anyone remember dannos?
He was sarcastic and snarky, just like goofball.
at least I didn't take Project Lead on NTstation, spend all of it arguing with the other project lead, and then suddenly quit without warning or reason one day

:^)
I don't recall ever doing that.

Or do you mean dannos? is that what happened to that butt twinkie?

ye, dannos just out of the blue quit, and then I guess found his way to lifeweb where he resides shitposting about us

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:55 am**

Fuck em. he said my prosecutor suit was ugly. I like the triple cravet thank you.
But yeah, you've hit dannos retarded levels, Gif memes and ad hom, ad hom.

so there.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:48 am**

I don't think this is an appropriate place to soapbox about how much you hate dannos. That's childish and pointless.

Posted: **Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:55 pm**

Vekter wrote:
Oldman wrote::words:
This is Coderbus feedback. This forum is the Feedback forum in the Coderbus section.

I think everyone's interpretation of this forum is:

Place where you complain about game mechanics, which is something only coders can fix.

not

Place where everything discussing the coderbus belongs.

The description of this forum is >Implying the game isn't perfect

not

>Implying Cheridan doesn't have control issues

I mean look at the other threads, does this post really feel like it fits in here? At least general has broad complants against the administration/management, which is precisely what this is.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:50 am**

I do agree that headcoders should hold the same countability that headadmins have, as well as being elected in a similar manner because right now headcoders have no obligation to the server or any accountability to anyone aside from themselves.

Furthermore I think the issue of 'balance' should not be one that a single person or small group of people have complete dictatorial control over, essentially one person's view should not utterly trump over another's.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:14 am**

It's fits in the PDA after you forge it.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:43 am**

While I still consider myself new here by a few months, I feel urged to give an opinion. I don't understand the whole politics of the coderbus or even what it all means, but if the person who heads the coding of the game does not listen to the players who play it, why is he not being asked to step down or voted out? After all it is the players affected most by things like this. And if he's banning people outright and closing PRs and shit on things people are interested in and not allowing discussion, again, why is he not being held accountable for said actions?

It seems to me to be a classic case of someone in power who is trying to maintain it though shady actions. That's not the kind of person you want in power. But, as I'll clarify, I'm still new-ish and likely don't know the full story, and if someone could give a fuller story if I'm wrong I'd appreciate it. As a player, I just do not want to see the server split and torn due to internal, behind the scenes politics. All this drama is very foreboding for the future of the servers and, to me, is a bit unsettling. But I can't help but pay attention because I feel it will have a large impact on the servers at some point. I just wanna play muh spessmens.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:39 am**

Aliannera wrote:While I still consider myself new here by a few months, I feel urged to give an opinion. I don't understand the whole politics of the coderbus or even what it all means, but if the person who heads the coding of the game does not listen to the players who play it, why is he not being asked to step down or voted out? After all it is the players affected most by things like this. And if he's banning people outright and closing PRs and shit on things people are interested in and not allowing discussion, again, why is he not being held accountable for said actions?

It seems to me to be a classic case of someone in power who is trying to maintain it though shady actions. That's not the kind of person you want in power. But, as I'll clarify, I'm still new-ish and likely don't know the full story, and if someone could give a fuller story if I'm wrong I'd appreciate it. As a player, I just do not want to see the server split and torn due to internal, behind the scenes politics. All this drama is very foreboding for the future of the servers and, to me, is a bit unsettling. But I can't help but pay attention because I feel it will have a large impact on the servers at some point. I just wanna play muh spessmens.

It's because despite sharing forums, the codebase being linked to on the main website, some coders possibly having admin powers for testing purposes, and the server mainly being used as a test bed for major changes, /tg/station the codebase is a separate entity from /tg/station the server. At least, that's what coderbus says.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:44 am**

At the end of the day the only server that uses /tg/code is /tg/station. I don't think or know of any major server aside from ourselves that uses /tg/code, even Hippestation uses their own branch of /tg/code which is heavily modified with many features from other code bases.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:29 am**

Then clearly the separation of the coderbus and servers is a rather non-existent thing.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:27 pm**

There is no power grabbing by any of the headcoders, the headcoders don't actually DO anything. I think it's unfair to call them accountable for anything when they have NEVER interacted with their own coders. The bigger question is WHY the headcoder position even exists, and that basically boils down to setting code quality standards and calling feature freezes. They don't have anything to do with the direction of the game, they VERY rarely veto something, and most of the time they just act like any other maintainer, occasionally merging a PR when there's not that much controversy surrounding it and the PR's creator has given the go-ahead. The last time that happened was when someone repeatedly (3 times, maybe 4) put up a PR to bring back the full shittyness that was stungloves (and you KNOW they're shitty to play against).

We have no system in place whatsoever to blame any of this on the head coders on the individual coder's experience, because that's not what their position is even about.

I'd also like to play as the devil's advocate here and point out that the coders as a whole do a shitload more good than harm. You get annoyed by maybe less than 5% of what actually gets changed, and we DO reject really stupid ideas or shitty changes out of common sense. A few bad things slip through, and that's why the feedback forums exist. The coders DO respond very frequently, and if they don't, call the INDIVIDUAL coder who is to blame out on it.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:43 pm**

didnt read the thread because im assuming anything said here actually isnt worth wasting my time to read

Why can't people just be civil about coding? If a discussion already took place about the change and you were not present for the discussion then shut up, sorry but you missed it and it happened. You can have another discussion all you want but the discussion that mattered already took place
If there was no discussion and Cheridan is being a knob for the sake of being a knob, which I doubt, then there's a problem. That doesn't seem to be what's happening though. What seems to be happening is that an opinion that some disagreed with got pushed through because others agreed with it and discussed it in the correct setting.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:01 pm**

AdenAbrafo wrote: If there was no discussion and Cheridan is being a knob for the sake of being a knob, which I doubt, then there's a problem. That doesn't seem to be what's happening though. What seems to be happening is that an opinion that some disagreed with got pushed through because others agreed with it and discussed it in the correct setting.

That is just not true. The proposed changes had a multitude of threads in which wide support for them was advocated. The PR concerning traitor TC (just one of the examples) had lots of support both in the forums and github. I was just shut down within 4 hours with a "LOL NOPE" reasoning.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:02 pm**

Unless the official stance of the coderbus has been changed by those in charge then this is the wrong place for this discussion regardless of what happened.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:59 pm**

AdenAbrafo wrote:What seems to be happening is that an opinion that some disagreed with got pushed through because others agreed with it and discussed it in the correct setting.

says someone who admits he didn't read the thread.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:01 pm**

@Aden, if you aren't willing to actually read the content of a thread, then don't offer your opinion on it. It's a mark of a fool to offer an opinion on something you, yourself admit you know nothing about.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:08 pm**

I do agree though that I feel this thread does not belong here. This section is for gameplay feedback I thought, not coderbus feedback. Don't know where else it would belong, other than General.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:19 pm**

WJohnston wrote:There is no power grabbing by any of the headcoders, the headcoders don't actually DO anything. I think it's unfair to call them accountable for anything when they have NEVER interacted with their own coders. The bigger question is WHY the headcoder position even exists, and that basically boils down to setting code quality standards and calling feature freezes. They don't have anything to do with the direction of the game, they VERY rarely veto something, and most of the time they just act like any other maintainer, occasionally merging a PR when there's not that much controversy surrounding it and the PR's creator has given the go-ahead. The last time that happened was when someone repeatedly (3 times, maybe 4) put up a PR to bring back the full shittyness that was stungloves (and you KNOW they're shitty to play against).

We have no system in place whatsoever to blame any of this on the head coders on the individual coder's experience, because that's not what their position is even about.

I'd also like to play as the devil's advocate here and point out that the coders as a whole do a shitload more good than harm. You get annoyed by maybe less than 5% of what actually gets changed, and we DO reject really stupid ideas or shitty changes out of common sense. A few bad things slip through, and that's why the feedback forums exist. The coders DO respond very frequently, and if they don't, call the INDIVIDUAL coder who is to blame out on it.

How do you reconcile that with what happened to this PR. Cheridan shut it down after a few hours of mostly supportive comments because a month ago Cheridan shut down a 40TC version. There's a pretty huge fucking difference between 30 and 40, and it was clear that this was the first phase of the proposal since it didn't even include the full text of the proposal I made.

There's no version of this story that doesn't involve Cheridan being a shit. A coder took a proposal that was getting support on feedback, brought it to Github and just as the discussion is getting started Cheridan decides that WE CANT TOLERATE THIS KIND OF STUFF and shuts it all down immediately.

Why would I ever get the impression that my feedback matters when you've got a headcoder powertripping that hard.

Edit: I agree it belongs in General, that's where I posted it. But the last three "general code/server/development/management" concerns have all been sabotaged by our wonderful forums mods, using whatever excuse possible to shove these threads into the most obscure forum that they can justify.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:23 pm**

To add to Oldman's post.

I then go onto the coderbus IRC in a attempt to talk to Cheridan and convince him to reopen the PR, as well as several other contentious PR's. His response is to ban me from the IRC and from github permanently.

Posted: **Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:41 pm**

WJohnston wrote:and the PR's creator has given the go-ahead.

Funny you say that.

/tg/Station 13

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Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty