/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

>IB4 traitor ling items.

What would you guys think of a traitor item similar to the one ability that Lings gets, where they can camouflage themselves from the AI.

All this talk about doorjacking leads me to believe that the prevalence of airlocks and putting too much content behind ID access are the root causes of this perceived problem.

Put a 5 second delay on the AI bolting doors.

That way they can still bolt of important area's, but instantly bolting down traitors the moment they pop out of maint would be a lot harder.

If you're an antag and the AI is a problem, all I can say is git gud. I cannot recall a single instance in which the AI is the reason I failed. Either subvert it or make sure it's busy.

Luke Cox wrote:If you're an antag and the AI is a problem, all I can say is git gud. I cannot recall a single instance in which the AI is the reason I failed. Either subvert it or make sure it's busy.

Eh, my entire traitor strategy relies on subverting the AI now. Anything else I do fails unless I kill x/steal x and wait patiently for the round to end for dat greentext.

that's true. emag is standard traitor gear and a flash is easy to come by. a single 'magged cyborg is an easy dead AI, especially if it's a secborg.

subverting the AI is semi-trivial, but of course you have to buy a 14 TC module or be a researcher to print the freeform board, both of which are restrictive.

there was an idea to segment the AI's door control by introducing world structures that allowed it to interface with the devices under the control of the structures. such a system would actually fix all of the problems with AI, unfortunately it's probably very complicated to code and would probably require somebody with knowledge and dedication and time.

For how long have we been saying we'll do a 'week without AI' to see how that goes?

This seems like the perfect time to trial a week without the AI and see how it effects the game.

We can easily mothball the AI Satellite for a week and return it afterwards and then discuss the merits, if any, of us not having the AI anymore (outside of RnD).

I think removing the AI is way too drastic a change. It serves a lot of utility purposes on the station and valid hunting is far from it's sole purpose. I think we should deal with the problem itself instead of ripping out huge parts of the round.

Remove AI for a week does not mean remove AI 5evah/delete from code etc.

It means lets have a week, or even a day or two, where the headmins change one setting (there is a setting that enables AI, don't need to touch the code at all), to clearly show what is and isn't an issue with the AI.
If all the antag issues with AI are still there, then hey, guess we're all just full of shit.
But if we see a difference, then based off that we can alter the AI/antags accordingly.

It's seriously not a big deal.

i would be fine with it, but i've been made very gunshy about "just for a week guys" in the past 6 months.

how many horrific changes have been made under that moniker? is it all of them?

Literally none of them

This isn't a code change. It's the admins changing a 1 to a 0 (or something) in the config.

I'm not against trying a no-AI week, but I think you'll find that it does fuck all to traitor effectiveness. 95% of the traitors I catch, I catch because somebody caught them in the act. The AI has a whole station to watch. Unless you're in a very public area with suit sensors on max, odds are the AI won't find out.

Luke Cox wrote:If you're an antag and the AI is a problem, all I can say is git gud. I cannot recall a single instance in which the AI is the reason I failed. Either subvert it or make sure it's busy.

Even if you can work around the AI, you still have to, you know, work around the AI in the first place. It just existing influences the fuck out of the experience of being a traitor.

Also, I would be so down with an AI-free one week trial.

Wasn't there also a config option for mute silicons? That was fun when it was tested for a few days (during the original Badger, if I remember correctly), with cyborgs only able to communicate through buzzing and beeping and such. Not sure what the restrictions on AIs were.

I will honestly say this. If you guys have SUCH an issue with an AI when antag, then you guys are probably some of the worst antags ever who can't plan ahead and instead act on the moment.

Hell, this is my opinion. Buff the AI, and loosen the restrictions of security so they can properly bust heads. If you can't handle playing antag, then git gud.

remove AI NTSL access

also, disable roundstart AI when there are less than twenty people playing.

i like silicons and their laws, they're probably one of the most novel and fun ideas in spacemans, but sadly the omniscience of the AI causes a lot of issues.

Miauw wrote:remove AI NTSL access

also, disable roundstart AI when there are less than twenty people playing.

i like silicons and their laws, they're probably one of the most novel and fun ideas in spacemans, but sadly the omniscience of the AI causes a lot of issues.

not my *tsshk* over *tsshk*!

If the AI ever gets removed what would you say about having two round start borgs then?

Luke Cox wrote:I'm not against trying a no-AI week, but I think you'll find that it does fuck all to traitor effectiveness. 95% of the traitors I catch, I catch because somebody caught them in the act. The AI has a whole station to watch. Unless you're in a very public area with suit sensors on max, odds are the AI won't find out.

firecage wrote:I will honestly say this. If you guys have SUCH an issue with an AI when antag, then you guys are probably some of the worst antags ever who can't plan ahead and instead act on the moment.

Hell, this is my opinion. Buff the AI, and loosen the restrictions of security so they can properly bust heads. If you can't handle playing antag, then git gud.

What game are you guys playing again?

The AI's ability to instantly jump to the location of any on-camera radio statement and use shortcuts to instantly bolts door is probably the single most influential change that has ever occurred in the history of SS13. I'm probably among the few who remember what it was like before that time, but the gist of it was that being on-camera didn't mean you were sheathed in a safety bubble of NO HARM. Someone could emag open your door and start chopping your face off and you couldn't just say HELP! on radio to 100% ensure that your killer was caught.

You had to yell some form of distress, accurately state your location (e.g. even saying HELP MEDBAY! wouldn't be enough for the AI to stop someone from dragging you into maint since it would have to manually jump over there and then scan the lobby/cryo/genetics/lobby/etc. before realizing that you were near virology and got dragged off), and then AI would report on common radio what it had seen and it would be up to security to actually apprehend you. Now just yell HELP! and watch in amazement as every door in the room shines red lights within seconds and your traitor is left contemplating why they didn't just disable that role in game settings. The need to instantly silence anyone you need to hurt/kidnap on-camera is 100% due to the current nature of AI.

Yes you can "git gud" and just either quickly kill everyone with plasma/sing/toxins, murder people instantly with a revolver, or just never leave maintenance and murder assistants and engineers for a living, but none of these are good places for the traitor/ling to be. The feeling I (and many others miss) is when you could antagonize on camera without an insanely high risk of being caught and trapped, and a more exciting interaction between traitor/lings and security... where taking one (traitor) down meant a crazy chase through a department, weapons firing back and forth, close-calls, and all sorts of trickery in eluding security. Instead of just HARM IN XENOBIOLOGY, bolt bolt... try breaking out through glass, science goes into lockdown, firelocks drop, all outer doors bolt, etc. Seeing an ambitious traitor get shut down by a handful of red lights is just not fun for the player, the observers, or security.

Oldman a lot of the stuff you say might be right but you're often assuming that the AI is some hyper-competent pro mlg AI player with a direct connection to the tgstation server.

imblyings wrote:Oldman a lot of the stuff you say might be right but you're often assuming that the AI is some hyper-competent pro mlg AI player with a direct connection to the tgstation server.

But only assumes these things because he has seen them be the case on a semi-regular basis. We all have, to some extent.

I won't argue that one I guess.

imblyings wrote:Oldman a lot of the stuff you say might be right but you're often assuming that the AI is some hyper-competent pro mlg AI player with a direct connection to the tgstation server.

This round that just finished had the following series of events:

1) HoS sees something odd below virology
2) Minerling grows armblade and runs at him
3) Idiot HoS too busy finishing a radio message to react to his face being mauled
4) HoS knocked down, he manages to show "HELP!" before crit.
5) Ling immediately starts stripping HoS
6) 2LATE, Harmyeller 9000 states, "He's in medbay maintenance"
7) It's traitorling so literally the entire crew had nothing better to do than swarm medbay maint.

Shit like this happens more often than not. It's also how little itty-bitty QOL changes for AI like crew monitor button instead of having to directly access the computer, that give the AI precious seconds in certain situations to catch bad guys. If AI had had to go to bridge and open the computer manually there's no way he would've seen the HOS suit sensors before he was stripped.

Yes it doesn't always happen, many AI wouldn't even think to check suit sensors, but when it does it's completely and indefensibly awful.

I know I was online for that one. I don't entirely agree with the suit sensor upgrade myself, having seen that viro have the balls that he did, he didn't deserve to be outed just like that.

I'd be ok with AI's being reverted back to something along the lines of a 2011-12 era AI where arguably it wasn't that easy to have that much of an impact but you still could given quick reactions and navigating of buttons and the map.

Didn't someone suggest that traitor PDAs could be slapped against a bolted airlock to unbolt it and disable AI control? Whatever happened to that? It would be an easy and quick way of defeating the "dreaded" bolted doors faster than the AI can bolt all the doors + disable Environmental power and preparing to stealthbolt ahead of time rarely happens unless you've been incredibly obvious and the AI has an entire station to watch. Even still, you can generally just go around the doors and I refuse to believe any competent traitor would ever make a move without at least a welder+wrench on their person.

Changelings really need a stealthy way to deal with doors as well, preferably emulating the same way the traitor option would above but that's simply a problem with lings in general. AI culture needs some work with many new players to the position not realising their job is more than valid-hunter v1.2. The job of an AI should be to prevent harm when it occurs and follow orders EXACTLY as specified, no bolting unless security tells you to for one.
A red message (like the one secborgs now receive) should be given to an AI at the start of the round telling them that they should not care about things that don't relate to their laws, such as theft of non-harmful objects, and that "Being a Syndicate Agent is considered a Capital Offence by NanoTraesn" which should be a *small* hint that maybe reporting the guy in a black-and-red space suit may cause harm.
It tends to be the newer AI players that are the problem I've found.

it being built into the PDA wouldnt work because
Sec Officer Mister McShittles says, "AI bolt this door so we can slap it with this guy's PDA and find out if he's a traitor or not"

Have to unlock the PDA first

Solves that issue.

PKPenguin321 wrote:it being built into the PDA wouldnt work because
Sec Officer Mister McShittles says, "AI bolt this door so we can slap it with this guy's PDA and find out if he's a traitor or not"

That's a workaround to the real problem, at best, and leaves all the other antag modes high and dry. I'd prefer a more general solution like nerfing or removing AI door bolting outright.

Removing AI bolting, period, would make the AI so vulnerable it wouldn't even be funny. And I did mention giving Lings a similar ability, hell I'd give it to them for free or make it cost one genome at most with no external sprite changes for the AI to see.
Nuke Ops don't need any help, they have so much going for them already and have C4 to deal with doors, it's their own fault if they didn't bring any. Wizards can say fuck you to doors, walls, the vacuum of space and death itself they're fine. Team/conversion antags? They have the advantage of numbers that bolting one guy down is meaningless in the long run. Shadowlings do their business in maintenance where the AI by default can't see and Abductors have teleportation. It's only Traitors and Changelings that really need help.

MisterPerson wrote:That's a workaround to the real problem, at best, and leaves all the other antag modes high and dry. I'd prefer a more general solution like nerfing or removing AI door bolting outright.

Other antag modes do not suffer the problem of the AI shutting down conflict to the same degree. Cults, revolutions, etc. all have the benefit of being able to all go loud at once, which quickly overwhelms the AI and makes it less of a factor.

Ling absolutely needs more terrain interaction. Even without AIs around they are just inferior without it.

I'm perplexed. The talk about 'let's remove the AI' scares me.
Disclaimer. I do not play traitor anymore, because I just can't antagonize - it'd be boring for everyone.
That said, that doesn't mean I haven't had to combat even the best of AIs. On the other hand, I play AI a lot too and know about the ways to lock somebody down.
I will try provide some insight and my impression of how powerful AIs really are (no offense, but I haven't seen lumi or oldman play AI in forever).
Short of a RCD to counter depowered bolted airlocks, the uplink (Fuck lings anyway) can provide you with all the tools you need to completely negate any power the AI has over you - excluding cyborgs. It all boils down to the fact, that all the AI can do is to try to bolt you down and yell over radio. That's it. It doesn't have bluespace artillery. The power the AI wields is a joke.

Spoilered because I know people get scared by letters: For me the problem does not lie with the AI. Traitors need more flexbility in the TC count (for on-demand agent cards, AI detector, toolbox, c4 etc.) and a few better tools to outmanoeuvre a competent AI as a not-so-robust traitor (i.e. door jack or maybe a tool that disables cameras in an area á la EMP shriek). Buffs like these would promote more skillful and resourceful players - nerfs to the AI would favour the players that haven't gotten good yet.
Or, when quality cannot be given, increase quantity - more antags.
The AI can be a big threat to antags and should be handled with caution like any member of security. Are threats bad? No. They make things exciting. The wrecking ball of nerfs needs to be stopped.

Oldman Robustin wrote: This round that just finished had the following series of events:
...
Shit like this happens more often than not. It's also how little itty-bitty QOL changes for AI like crew monitor button
...
Yes it doesn't always happen, many AI wouldn't even think to check suit sensors, but when it does it's completely and indefensibly awful.

MDs with their portable monitors could have passed on that information too. If anything, the fault lies with the suit sensors and them being too accurate.
I remember a time where coders were adamant about making suit sensor lists more readily available. Fluff-wise it was under the pretext of "privacy" - but the real deal was to not have somebody check life signs 24/7 and giving antags a chance to murder people. Crafty CMOs would move their console into the medbay lobby so bored MD's had something to do. Now everyone can have one of these life sign monitors. More often than not, it probably is a MD reacting to 'HELP' calls by using their portable murder pointer.

I have one minor idea, we could remove x-ray cameras.
Especially constructable ones, like one time I met a "good worker" who decided to spend the round installing them around maint, and even better, after I laid him to rest, I discovered that he had himself backed up at genetics. Well, whatever.
There aren't many x-ray cams, but their removal would establish that if you see a camera<=>the ai can see you.

Also, the AI tracking list should include only mobs that are wearing their ID. So no more "find the xeno hive instantly" or monkeys, which makes sense considering the ventcrawling change (it's effectively a nerf)

And no motion sensors in cams either.
And no HUD button for suit sensors. Back then, if an antag caused the consols to lose power or blow up, the AI couldn't look at sensors, but now there is no way to do this.
And no borg list on the status tab so antags can emag borgs without the AI noticing in 3 seconds.

I guess I got a bit carried away, but this is how I see the game balance.

leibniz wrote:I have one minor idea, we could remove x-ray cameras.

There only ever was one x-ray camera: in the dorms. It was removed ages ago.
Over the last year, I ran into maybe two or three individuals that bothered to install cameras in maint. Not a single x-ray though.
Usually this is done merely as a project for the sake of doing something and not to empower the AI.

leibniz wrote: Also, the AI tracking list should include only mobs that are wearing their ID. So no more "find the xeno hive instantly" or monkeys, which makes sense considering the ventcrawling change (it's effectively a nerf)

I like that. It would still expose the ones too lazy to disable cameras.
One could say ID cards come with a mini-locator.

leibniz wrote: And no HUD button for suit sensors. Back then, if an antag caused the consols to lose power or blow up, the AI couldn't look at sensors, but now there is no way to do this.

I'd be fine with nerfs like these, if it keeps the AI in the game. However, I still do not agree that the AI is the problem here. Gutting the AI feels like performing a brain transplant to fix somebody with a broken arm.

leibniz wrote: And no borg list on the status tab so antags can emag borgs without the AI noticing in 3 seconds.

Emagged cyborgs still show up in the status tab list - just not on the robotics console. AIs do not get any notification whatsoever when borgs are emagged or new, unlinked cyborgs are connected to the silicon network.

Actionb wrote:

leibniz wrote:I have one minor idea, we could remove x-ray cameras.

There only ever was one x-ray camera: in the dorms. It was removed ages ago.
Over the last year, I ran into maybe two or three individuals that bothered to install cameras in maint. Not a single x-ray though.
Usually this is done merely as a project for the sake of doing something and not to empower the AI.

Yeah, I guess this is not an issue most of the time.

Actionb wrote:

leibniz wrote: And no borg list on the status tab so antags can emag borgs without the AI noticing in 3 seconds.

Emagged cyborgs still show up in the status tab list - just not on the robotics console. AIs do not get any notification whatsoever when borgs are emagged or new, unlinked cyborgs are connected to the silicon network.

I see, I assumed that the status tab only lists slaved borgs.

i SAID that the new crew monitor would be too powerful, but it would obviously change nothing right


also how is an omniscient ai that can be anywhere on the station within 3 seconds (i tried to nerf it but WHAT IF AI IS NOT INSTANT DEATH FOR ALL ANTAGS ANYOMRE) not the problem.

I feel like a lot of these arguments are sailing past each other like ships in the night.

I'm not saying that AI is impossible to get around. Yes traitors have tools that let them mitigate the AI's impact and there are players who have managed to do great deeds of antagonism despite the AI's best efforts. The argument isn't that traitors cannot do anything due to AI, but rather on AVERAGE the AVERAGE traitor is rendered impotent/uninteresting/docile by the effects of the synthetic god we've created. That leaves the AVERAGE traitorling round to become completely dependent on either exceptionally robust traitors or exceptionally unrobust AI/security in order to produce the kind of conflict that keeps players playing this game (it's fun to watch for the dead, and keeps you on your toes when you're living).

It's the same reason that parasting removal was so crippling to lings. To the robust player it was an aggravation at worst, stunprod+mutesting+cablecuffs had a few more downsides (gives opponents a chance to run, much shorter stun, louder, takes longer to get your victim portable) but the effect for robust players was still the same.... stun + silence = win. Yet lings were soon as their worst because the average ling player doesn't even know how to make a stun prod, or where you can easily find high-cap power cells, or have the experience to quickly equip and apply cablecuffs during an abduction, etc... etc...

Same story here. I can still get around AI's, but it kills the fun of a traitor round for me when I have to invest 90% of my time and energy into avoiding AI detection while always facing the risk that sheer dumb luck will let the AI fuck me over anyway (the story that prompted this was one of those moments, AI was just scrollin by...). So between it just becoming a chore for robust antags, and a flat out round-killer for less experienced ones, the quality of traitor rounds has plummeted accordingly.

I enjoy fighting security as a traitor. As security I enjoy fighting traitors. As both I do not enjoy having door bolts decide the outcome of every fight for me. Vote Doorjack 2015.

Miauw wrote:i SAID that the new crew monitor would be too powerful, but it would obviously change nothing right

Any observant player using the sensors could ruin an antag, it's not exclusive to the AI. The auto-refresh simplified matters, but you could emulate that by just repeatedly clicking the console with the old sensors list.

Miauw wrote: also how is an omniscient ai that can be anywhere on the station within 3 seconds (i tried to nerf it but WHAT IF AI IS NOT INSTANT DEATH FOR ALL ANTAGS ANYOMRE) not the problem.

How come it suddenly is a problem? It's been like this for ages. I've written over and over again how you can defeat an AI. A combination of QoL features can't possibly explain how, supposedly, traitors suddenly get owned in droves by a bolted airlock.

The argument isn't that traitors cannot do anything due to AI, but rather on AVERAGE the AVERAGE traitor is rendered impotent/uninteresting/docile by the effects of the synthetic god we've created.

An AI sees way less than you think it does. The AI can only be in one place at a time.
Traitors being boring, coy and not willing to risk anything does not have to be connected to the AI - you get the same shit on low pop with no AI. It's a problem with the players themselves being too careful and/or there being too few antagonists. As an example: I remember a DA round a few days ago where every antag just went balls to the wall postal. I was the AI and there was nothing I could do to stop all this violence.
Getting caught is just part of the game and the game offers you tools to avoid detection and escape detainment scenarios. People take their ingame life way too seriously, at times.

It just irks me that a deficiency in player culture (boring antagonists) or a lack of traitor versatility is blamed on the AI (reminder: the thread reads FUCK THE AI). Knowing this community, such complaints could easily lead to some kneejerk nerfs to the AI. There was also serious talk about removing the AI - this will impact a huge amount of other content of the game, from Ai subversions, to MALF being ogre and possibly ultimately to the replacement of cyborgs with drones (now it's all between you and other humans!).

I'm note sure that after months of intense, constant discussion and deliberation that you could describe any change made to the AI as "knee-jerk"

Let's not forget that, far from "all the AI can do is bolt you down and yell", the AI can bolt you down and dispatch a nannybot to come fuck you up, it can direct every secutron on the station to wait outside the door when you start hacking it, and it can instantly and undetectably report you to security.

most of those things are nominally against asimov anyway

>giving some asshole hacking some door you don't care about to security so they can maybe find a camera bug in his pocket and kill him over it

yeahhhhhhhh no

A lot of AIs do need to realize that Asimov is not Validmov9000. Enforcement of that would help.

Why can't we have one of those radio jammer things from goon? Like the same size as a charm pojecter you keep in your pocket and disables all radio/pda devices in a 5-6 tile radius?

Cik wrote:most of those things are nominally against asimov anyway

>giving some asshole hacking some door you don't care about to security so they can maybe find a camera bug in his pocket and kill him over it

yeahhhhhhhh no

Hi there friend, it seems you're new here. Why don't you sit down and play a few rounds before making those kinds of comments.

Seriously though, do you play here?

Whether you like it or not every AI here will see syndicate gear on a person, know that syndicate are harmful, and do the whole bolt & yell routine.

TheWiznard wrote:Why can't we have one of those radio jammer things from goon? Like the same size as a charm pojecter you keep in your pocket and disables all radio/pda devices in a 5-6 tile radius?

Abductors have this, and generally have little fear of the AI, as lockdowns do nothing to stop teleporters, the agent can silence the radio, so he would have to be unlucky, with the AI already watching him pull out his alien baton. Even then, they can just teleport out and swap disguises. Heck, if the AI DID become a problem, they can just abduct the AI!

If you really seek to baby traitors this much, despite them having access to an EMP grenade that gives them 90 seconds of stealth and radio silence when used corretly, you could simply give them a resprited abductor's radio jammer. If they still somehow get caught after that, they are just unlucky or unskilled.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Cik wrote:most of those things are nominally against asimov anyway

>giving some asshole hacking some door you don't care about to security so they can maybe find a camera bug in his pocket and kill him over it

yeahhhhhhhh no

Hi there friend, it seems you're new here. Why don't you sit down and play a few rounds before making those kinds of comments.

Seriously though, do you play here?

Whether you like it or not every AI here will see syndicate gear on a person, know that syndicate are harmful, and do the whole bolt & yell routine.

hello friend, yes i do play here,

#notallAIs

by the way not all syndicate are harmful either. honestly if the valid was stepped on a little harder most of that would go away. remember when EVA was roundstart bolted? admins leaned on it a little and poof

half of all syndicate objectives are pretty benign. as long as they aren't shooting people in the hallways i conceal their existence as a matter of course which makes more sense under asimov than handing them to security, who are generally at least 50% composed of jackbooted thugs with a bloodthirst.

edit: and then even if they have a gun i think i trust security less. yay, redtide with a revolver or energy sword

great

But i think a big part of the issue is that we do not want benign quiet get-my-objective-and-do-nothing traitors, that shit is fucking boring.

Have you tried making your own fun?

Rather than removing one of the most unique roles in the game I'd rather try a week or two of traitorsec again.

I understand security needs to trust each other and work as a team in modes like nuke, rev, gang, etc, but traitor should be all about backstabbing and paranoia, not about the validhunting team vs the woefully underequipped spies.

no no no no no no no no no no no

Wyzack wrote:But i think a big part of the issue is that we do not want benign quiet get-my-objective-and-do-nothing traitors, that shit is fucking boring.

if you want to make it easier for traitors to work violently there are two easy solutions really

1. give more TC so stealth items come back into use. as it is chameleon projectors, jumpsuits, agent IDs never see use because you can't really get a weapon, an emag and them

2. increase traitor ratio so AI has to work harder to cover everywhere

3. cut cameras dummy

Kor wrote:Rather than removing one of the most unique roles in the game I'd rather try a week or two of traitorsec again.

I understand security needs to trust each other and work as a team in modes like nuke, rev, gang, etc, but traitor should be all about backstabbing and paranoia, not about the validhunting team vs the woefully underequipped spies.

this was really never a good idea. it will just encourage greytide and related shenanigans; even when you can (mostly) implicitly trust sec not to kill you it's here now. imagine in the future when any secling/sectator can easily grab people off the street and just kill them in maint. once you bring that back it will be bedlam every round. sec is completely helpless against an internal threat because everything they do relies implicitly on trust. furthermore every nonsec will be kill first ask questions never as any arrest could be a murder in progress.

at that point what's even the point of sec? might as well just do americastation and hand out guns to assistants to enforce their own law. that's basically what traitorsec quickly becomes.