/tg/Station 13

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firecage wrote:I remember a fun round yesterday or so. Me versus an Artificer, me being one of the few station defenders left. His MM ends up hitting me. Oh, look, a tiny little breach into space. He barely drags me into it before I manage to get up. Guess what? I was barely pulled into said breach and still at full health. It was impossible for me to get back onto the station, due to fucking spacewind.

That was me :^)

I've long wanted to make spacewind not actually push mobs but instead apply a temporary slowdown. So if anybody is looking for a good suggestion, hey, there you go.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Airlocks should automatically fastclose.

Fastclose was completely removed I think. No one knows why.

firecage wrote:I remember a fun round yesterday or so. Me versus an Artificer, me being one of the few station defenders left. His MM ends up hitting me. Oh, look, a tiny little breach into space. He barely drags me into it before I manage to get up. Guess what? I was barely pulled into said breach and still at full health. It was impossible for me to get back onto the station, due to fucking spacewind.

This is how it's supposed to work. Eventually people will learn that a breach into space = a zero sum game.

We do need to make it easier to acquire supplies to survive this though.

EDIT: Hey lets put a metal foam applicator in the emergency O2 closets. It makes zero sense that the station wouldn't have some sort of emergency patch kit that was readily available.

The endless cycle of "things aren't dangerous enough" followed by "something killed me, nerf it!" continues.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

firecage wrote:I remember a fun round yesterday or so. Me versus an Artificer, me being one of the few station defenders left. His MM ends up hitting me. Oh, look, a tiny little breach into space. He barely drags me into it before I manage to get up. Guess what? I was barely pulled into said breach and still at full health. It was impossible for me to get back onto the station, due to fucking spacewind.

This is how it's supposed to work. Eventually people will learn that a breach into space = a zero sum game.

We do need to make it easier to acquire supplies to survive this though.

EDIT: Hey lets put a metal foam applicator in the emergency O2 closets. It makes zero sense that the station wouldn't have some sort of emergency patch kit that was readily available.

Make it have a VERY small use, like 3 uses to stop a hallway.

Allow us to construct the tiny fans found in survival shelters, and possibly put them in places traffic is expected pass in and out of low/zero pressure environments. The fans are the SS13 equivalent of a real life machine.

The difference here is that walking back and forth between space and the station until you die isn't fun rather than it being genuine I ded.

Gun Hog wrote:Allow us to construct the tiny fans found in survival shelters, and possibly put them in places traffic is expected pass in and out of low/zero pressure environments. The fans are the SS13 equivalent of a real life machine.

My understanding is that the fans in the survival pods are just to keep the air moving. The air door you linked to isn't exactly useful at airlocks BUT it would be good for keeping BEES in hydroponics. On a related note, negative-pressure virology/toxins lab when?

yackemflam wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
EDIT: Hey lets put a metal foam applicator in the emergency O2 closets. It makes zero sense that the station wouldn't have some sort of emergency patch kit that was readily available.

Make it have a VERY small use, like 3 uses to stop a hallway.

Oh absolutely. I hate seeing someone laying down floor tiles over a giant bomb crater when brig gets blown up. You're supposed to wall off hallways and rooms first to minimize air loss, THEN work on patching the hull.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Oh absolutely. I hate seeing someone laying down floor tiles over a giant bomb crater when brig gets blown up. You're supposed to wall off hallways and rooms first to minimize air loss, THEN work on patching the hull.

The problem with that is you probably end up losing more air across the station by trying to wall off potential holes than just grabbing a stack of floor tiles and slamming them down as fast as possible. Unless its a really big bomb then that whole area is probably a write-off anyway.

Saegrimr wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Oh absolutely. I hate seeing someone laying down floor tiles over a giant bomb crater when brig gets blown up. You're supposed to wall off hallways and rooms first to minimize air loss, THEN work on patching the hull.

The problem with that is you probably end up losing more air across the station by trying to wall off potential holes than just grabbing a stack of floor tiles and slamming them down as fast as possible. Unless its a really big bomb then that whole area is probably a write-off anyway.

So, yesterday, the brig got blown up on Box, epicenter just port of the main hall in the brig itself. The fore hallway was compromised and losing air, but we(I) were(was) able to wall off that hallway outside the law office and make the hallway safer. That's the sort of repairs I want to see more of: safe passages that take less time to re-pressurize vs. patching an entire area and waiting an eternity for it to re-pressurize and return to a stable temperature.

Easier access to metal foam materials and having it dry faster would make it a viable fix, yes.

A point-and-click I played a while ago, Mission Critical, was set aboard a spaceship and had a solution to decompression and breaches that I'm surprised hasn't been implemented yet: hull patch kits in emergency lockers on every deck.
We have fire extinguishers and oxygen lockers everywhere, but how come we don't have low-yield metal foam grenades or similar lying around just in case?

Space wind hasn't be touched in months.

Atmos speed hasn't been touched in a year.

Heres how we got to where we are:

June, 2015, I made atmos faster, but nerfed spacewind to counter. old: atmos: 2 seconds, space wind: 2seconds, new: atmos: 0.5 seconds, spacewind: 1 second.

Aug, 2015, cheri removes my nerf to spacewind, and then buffs it, by flat out removing all time limits. but also adds better resistance numbers.: new: spacewind: 0.5 seconds, but multiple spacewind moves per tick of the same object/mob (old limited it to 1 move of any thing per tick).

Nov, 2015, I remove cheris buff, but keep the removed nerf, because it caused a bug. at this point atmos runs every 0.5 seconds, and space wind processes every 0.5 seconds. THIS STATE IS IDENTICAL TO THE CURRENT STATE OF ATMOS AND SPACEWIND

Dec, 2015, 510 comes out, new mc comes around to use 510 remove lag, but it's a stop gap measure and doesn't do it properly, so atmos is excessively slowed down when it doesn't need to be.

jan/feb, 2016, lavaland comes out, due to bugs and other issues, it causes all 19k turfs to process, between LAG_CHECK and 19k turfs just being a large number, it takes atmos 2 to 6 seconds to process, slowing it down.

Aug, 2016: I release a new mc to fix the issue with it slowing things like atmos or lighting down too much, and give us better control of system priorities.

June, 2016: I fix the bug in lavaland causing every turf to process, now only turfs with changes process again, and changes dispate faster because its a planet. atmos now runs as fast as it was suppose to, and thus, so does space wind.

July, 2016: NewFriends complain about spacewind.

Moving forward, what we can do, is re-add the 1second throttle to spacewind moves.

We can also make actively moving slow you down in spacewind, rather than move you, so you don't lose hold of what you are grabbing unless its really a lot of wind.

I could also look at expanding pressure_resistance to allow it to scale, such that at some base number, its a 10% chance per tick to get spacewind moved, but higher up it gets more likely.

But I'm not a newfriend. And all these tweaks would be good.

don't throttle it, these players need to get good.

Having a rare pair of boots or a mech isn't really any sort of skill.

Half the complaints aren't even about dying it's just that obtuse even to people in space suits.

We can always bring back cycling airlocks. When you're in between two airlocks in a cycling chamber you can remove all the pressure & gas from the chamber, then you won't get pulled out into space when the airlock to space opens and you can freely move between the tiles.

This creates another problem though, that it's really hard to get outside and the best avenue is usually smashing windows.... which still causes space wind pulling.

oranges wrote:don't throttle it, these players need to get good.

How do I get good. Do I hold "W" harder? Or maybe the Up Arrow is the valid choice?

Seriously, just add some of the survival pod fans to airlocks (the ones that actually go outside to space or lavaland). They block atmos entirely! Proof in the spoiler:

paprika wrote:We can always bring back cycling airlocks. When you're in between two airlocks in a cycling chamber you can remove all the pressure & gas from the chamber, then you won't get pulled out into space when the airlock to space opens and you can freely move between the tiles.

This creates another problem though, that it's really hard to get outside and the best avenue is usually smashing windows.... which still causes space wind pulling.

I'd like cycling airlocks FOR MY IMULSIONS! Genuinely sad we don't have em.

Incomptinence wrote:Having a rare pair of boots or a mech isn't really any sort of skill.

Half the complaints aren't even about dying it's just that obtuse even to people in space suits.

I honestly think mag boots should come as default with hardsuits. It's actually why when I play science at the moment, I specifically make magboots for all the engineering team.
We had a round the other day where a midround blob ate most of science, shuttle arrived and I moved through the smashed maintenance, opened the airlock to escape and spent the next two minutes fighting space wind being pushed back repeatedly because I was injured before giving up entirely. All it does is create frustration because if you don't have magboots, give up.

Akkryls wrote:It's actually why when I play science at the moment, I specifically make magboots for all the engineering team.

But if we made mag boots default, interesting interactions like this would cease. Sometimes hard work and cooperation can make this game more enjoyable than if everything is readily available.

peoplearestrange wrote:

Akkryls wrote:It's actually why when I play science at the moment, I specifically make magboots for all the engineering team.

But if we made mag boots default, interesting interactions like this would cease. Sometimes hard work and cooperation can make this game more enjoyable than if everything is readily available.

We could borrow the magboots from The Expanse and give every pair of shoes that ability, BUT they only have a few minutes of charge.

I rather like fast atmos such as we have; it's not a huge shitler like Bay atmos but is actually a hazard like it should be compared to much of our past here. Space wind and such is all good while I've died to it. It happens sometimes, but it is fucking space. You go near a breach in a window leading to a damn vacuum, it should not be surprising you die. Does it suck? Yes, it's supposed to and I am ok with it.

Speaking on this though, WE NEED ACTUAL AIRLOCKS. Station is covered in docks and such, and we still use all these shitty door-gap-door bullshit. Those are not airlocks, they suck, always have sucked, and now with atmos working more feasibly proper, we Need Them to not suck so much. They are a basic design of a space station and we're still using some ghetto compartmentalization-only crap with just doors.

MrStonedOne wrote:Moving forward, what we can do, is re-add the 1second throttle to spacewind moves.

We can also make actively moving slow you down in spacewind, rather than move you, so you don't lose hold of what you are grabbing unless its really a lot of wind.

I could also look at expanding pressure_resistance to allow it to scale, such that at some base number, its a 10% chance per tick to get spacewind moved, but higher up it gets more likely.

The real problem is just what the game considers to be a significant-enough air movement to be able to push things. People ought to get pushed around by big air changes, but they end up getting pushed by relatively minor changes and getting caught up in hull breaches forever. Scaling resistance sounds nice.

The other option is just making Atmos work faster so that it doesn't cause spacewind for 20 minutes while it slowly slowly drains the air out. Whatever happened to https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/16558 ?

Gamarr wrote:but it is fucking space.

No it's not. You just cherrypick your realism and complain when some people dislike it. You want space? Add explosive decompression, all windows bursting when one is pierced, escaping air sucking you out and launching away, and you losing consciousness in few second no matter your internals.

Oh? You don't want this? Well then you're casual and HUGBOX.

Or, we can establish that it's just gameplay, and we're playing on a roleplayin spess station where there are wizards and wet floor is more powerful weapon than .50 BMG. And we can try to reach a compromise.

What i'm gonna do is re-add the 1 second throttle until somebody can figure out an easy way to code movement such that you can track actively moving so we can make it interact with that better.

Make a longer ingame poll maybe? I'm curious how many people really enjoy it. I would be willing to concede my argument if I knew i'm in minority.

Actually, on second thought, i'll just make a pressure resistance lower and upper bound, and scale prob of move to that, and have mobs cut the prob in half if they moved recently.

I can also have being near a wall or anchored structure lower the prob as well.

Lumbermancer wrote: No it's not. You just cherrypick your realism and complain when some people dislike it.

Cherrypick? Complain? Well ok, though criticizing complaints about space wind like what is going on is point of this. So I'm not sure what the fuck is the point of the thread would be if not discussion on something. Take a deep breath, let go and unclench yourself.

You want space? Add explosive decompression, all windows bursting when one is pierced, escaping air sucking you out and launching away, and you losing consciousness in few second no matter your internals.

Oh? You don't want this? Well then you're casual and kickin' rad place to be.

Always did want this, but things like You just happen and I gave up wanting to change certain things here some time ago.

MrStonedOne wrote: I can also have being near a wall or anchored structure lower the prob as well.

This is just mobs grabbing onto whatever they can to keep from being sucked into space (In case anyone needed this to be realisticish (i did))

Gamarr wrote:Always did want this,.

I'm sure you did, but did you consider what others think? Clearly not, because I'm suddenly a "thing" in this discussion.

Among fucking with the code, I found out that any shoe with noslip (the syndy shoes, the janitor shoes (as well as the expected magboots)) stops spacewind

I'll be 'fixing' this soonish, so abuse it, robust your janitor today!

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19494

Space wind is now a scaling percent to move on pressure differences.
Space wind percent to move scales with pressure amount, and other modifers:
Actively moving (as in holding down a move key) reduces chance of getting moved by space wind by 30%
Having a wall or dense anchored object to your left or right (in terms of direction to be moved) will lower your chance to be moved in space wind by 20% in each direction. (so a wall on both sides is 40%) (Only applies to mob's with limbs)

I've literally never got stuck in a hullbreach though. Like, ever.

you only get stuck when you hit deep orange health. basically to escape spacewind just walk away from it as soon as you find yourself in a breach area, instead of standing around, taking 40000 pressure damage, failing to walk away from it, dying, and complaining on the forums

In the past two days, I've seen five separate incidents of people breaking a window, then being chainstunned and killed in seconds by space wind pulling them into the electrified grille. It's hilarious.

TheNightingale wrote:In the past two days, I've seen five separate incidents of people breaking a window, then being chainstunned and killed in seconds by space wind pulling them into the electrified grille. It's hilarious.

this has happened since we had electrified grilles (actually i lied i think it happened in an atmos update maybe a year or two ago) and yes it is in fact hilarious

On an unrelated note, if MSO didn't make that PR, I would atleast have suggested adding fans to the arrivals shuttle.

Imagine this. Arrivals shuttle has a breach. You just arrive. You literally can't get out of the shuttle due to spacewind. You can't even get into the first airlock. Soon oxygen-loss, pressure loss, and the cold kills you due to being unable to escape the arrivals shuttle. Watch as other new arrivals die aswell.

steal cycling airlocks from Bay/Polaris that they've had forfuckingever

If you don't want to go that complicated, make an airlock button that toggles a vent/scrubber in the airlock between siphon and fill.

Screemonster wrote:steal cycling airlocks from Bay/Polaris that they've had forfuckingever

If you don't want to go that complicated, make an airlock button that toggles a vent/scrubber in the airlock between siphon and fill.

Or you could do the easiest and simplest solution that already exists in our code. Add the /obj/structure/fans/tiny object to areas where space wind is expected. They block atmos entirely, so there is zero space wind in an airlock containing one. Why no one seems to think this is a good idea is beyond me. There is even a /obj/structure/fans/tiny/invisible version if you do not want it to be seen.

Once as a ghost i watched a zapped space grill in maint kill an entire sec team including the warden and a couple assistants with its insatiable lust for blood.

atmos cycling airlocks just won't work, to abusable as a super lock, and too slow, nobody would use it and they would cry out (rightfully) if we forced it. but bump cycling airlocks would, where if you open one normally at all, it will attempt to close the other, but not force a close or wait for it to close, just attempt a close while opening the door you bumped or clicked

Lumbermancer wrote:No it's not. You just cherrypick your realism and complain when some people dislike it. You want space? Add explosive decompression, all windows bursting when one is pierced, escaping air sucking you out and launching away, and you losing consciousness in few second no matter your internals.

This could get really old really quickly with half the station breaking down due to the drop of a pin, but I can't be the only one thinking that this would be fukken metal.

Thank you Space Wind senpai...

LMAO