/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:31 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

>Sunglasses printable

Welding helmets are printable. They half blind you but these are the sacrifices you make if you're absolutely horrified of sec taking all the stops out and deploying the big guns.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:33 pm**

>security using roundstart gear from their standard lockers is deploying the big guns

?

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:38 pm**

If almost every antagonist except the greyshit has counters to flashbangs, why are they being nerfed or changed at all?

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:40 pm**

making flashbangs have the same blind radius they already do but a smaller stun radius that isn't mitigated by security gear might be cool?
flashbangs have to be a danger to everyone, user and his friends included
they would still be useful, but you'd actually have to think a little bit

Reece wrote:Baseballs should autohit flashbangs back at the thrower

this but like, basically with anything thrown at someone holding a baseball bat

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:48 pm**

Kor wrote:>security using roundstart gear from their standard lockers is deploying the big guns

That they only have a limited supply of, yes.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:36 am**

Kor wrote:>security using roundstart gear from their standard lockers is deploying the big guns

?

It's their most effective stuns... hell its the big guns when its blob too... chews right through blobs for some unexplainable reason... its a flash of light not a heat producing flamethrower

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:51 pm**

If flashbangs are so destructive they kill blob... they should damage windows...

Use too many flashbangs and the windows shatter

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:20 pm**

Remove the flashbang boxes from HoS locker and Armory, make them orderable by cargo only. Give every officer a default flashbang in their bag plus ~4 in the sec vending machine.

Flashbangs play an important role that would otherwise make sec's job impossible. It only becomes an issue when an officer can just grab a box and can keep an entire area permastunned for 60+ seconds. There's absolutely nothing wrong with sec having a limited use *fuck this shit* weapon. It could also be mitigated by making the flash bang give an audio cue (like macrobombs) as they count down so people know to run when a sec officer primes the thing off-screen and comes charging in.

Only other suggestion would be give non-sec easier options for mitigating the stun. Maybe eye protection but no ear protection should reduce the stun length by a few more seconds.

I would also support making tear gas more useful so that anyone without internals on will get stunned, regardless of eye protection. Going into it without eye protection should give a moderate duration blind too.

But security absolutely needs a form of AOE crowd control given that they are routinely outnumbered and stunning one person means jack shit if his 3 buddies are right on top of you.

I find shotguns to be far more offensive to balance than flashbangs.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:22 pm**

Buffing tear gas also buffs pepper spray, and pepper spray is bae.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:28 pm**

Add in a space powercell for the stunbaton? Or a sec light ,because the seclight is the most useful sec tool in the game.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:36 pm**

Reece wrote:Add in a space powercell for the stunbaton? Or a sec light ,because the seclight is the most useful sec tool in the game.

What?

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:27 pm**

CosmicScientist wrote:Oldman, what do you do with the secbelts with a flashbang in them that are sec locker spawned?

Not arguing, just wanted to know.

Forgot about those, they could be removed if sec officer's are given one in their bag at roundstart, or maybe the belt will just be removed from lockers and sec will wear them at roundstart (meh).

All in all, the boxes are the biggest issue. My experience has been that if you had a modest time cost to an activity, it serves as a massive deterrence for most people. It would be very rare for someone to be desperate enough to manually empty the flashbang from each sec belt in each locker.

But yea the only thing flashbangs really need is a feeling of scarcity. Whatever it takes to get there is fine by me.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:49 pm**

Almost nobody bothers taking the flashbangs to spam.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:52 am**

I would propose that flashbangs stun everyone who is on screen. But diminished slightly if you're wearing eye and ear protection still stunning them but less than unprotected people. I think a buff to pepper spray, and tear gas is the way to go. I feel like the should give the dizzy effect, and slow down. Forcing people to move at walk speed for a short period of time. Maybe five seconds of slow movement, and ten seconds of dizzy.

Also there are a ton of flashbangs on station. Captain has a box, HoS has a box, warden has a box, and the armory has a box, sometimes there is a box between the armory and the wardens office. The sec vender has flashbangs, and each sec belt has a flashbang. They are by no means a rare / uncommon weapon.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:50 am**

Just make them blind and deafen you but not stun.
Like they actually work

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:56 am**

Flashbangs are fine the way they are. Acquire good and get shades + a bowman headset.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:03 am**

I think part of the issue comes from flashbangs being detonated in hand, which does no harm to the sec officer but allows them a large degree of control and lack of recourse on the part of the victim, since the sec officer can just run after the victim a la yakkety sax.

Perhaps in hand detonating flashbangs should burn the hand severely, making that hand unusuable for holding/grabbing until treated with ointment/burn patches/etc? This doesn't remove the behaviour entirely but does penalise it, and if theres a real desire to mantain this methodology, you could make it not affect people wearing insulating gloves.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:07 am**

>does no harm to the officer
[citation needed]

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:18 am**

Arianya wrote:I think part of the issue comes from flashbangs being detonated in hand, which does no harm to the sec officer but allows them a large degree of control and lack of recourse on the part of the victim, since the sec officer can just run after the victim a la yakkety sax.

Perhaps in hand detonating flashbangs should burn the hand severely, making that hand unusuable for holding/grabbing until treated with ointment/burn patches/etc? This doesn't remove the behaviour entirely but does penalise it, and if theres a real desire to mantain this methodology, you could make it not affect people wearing insulating gloves.

Kevinz fixed that. Holding a flashbang when it explodes will stun you for longer than if you had been hit by it normally. Flashbangs are also pretty easy to run from, with a five second timer. This means the officer would have to cook and throw it, which does take a bit of skill- and most security players don't have that skill.(or even know how to effectively use flashbangs)

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:44 am**

Yea detonating flashbangs in hand will leave you at the mercy of whoever you flashbang'd, its one of the longest stuns in the game.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:51 am**

I'd love to see a buff to pepper spray / tear gas and watch flashbangs nerfed. All you need is to allow the flashbang to effect everyone in line of sight, stun time is weakened by having ear protection, and sunglasses but not completely ignored.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:38 am**

i'm still confused as to why nerfing sec is in any way desirable

are sec winning too much? i mean, if winning is counted as existing after like 20 minutes in a high deathrate round then i don't think they ever win

the ever-increasing power of low effort murderboners does kind of need a counter, and sec are far below their previous power level now that sillicons can't really help them.

playing sec is already pretty much a punishment role. i don't think they need nerfs.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:53 am**

CosmicScientist wrote:
Cik wrote:i'm still confused as to why nerfing sec is in any way desirable

are sec winning too much? i mean, if winning is counted as existing after like 20 minutes in a high deathrate round then i don't think they ever win

the ever-increasing power of low effort murderboners does kind of need a counter, and sec are far below their previous power level now that sillicons can't really help them.

playing sec is already pretty much a punishment role. i don't think they need nerfs.
The sentiments here, and I'm projecting, are that the flashbang isn't a necessarily fun item, not that security needs to be nerfed.

The easy solution to these emotions is to do nothing, the cheap solution is to have an inventory shuffle of what Oldman said and the good solution would be to either rework or replace flashbangs with something more fun that isn't as useless as pepper spray to the redshirt on the go and sorting out its rarity. That said, I'd want Oldman's solution first since I doubt we'll get a new flashbang much like how we got a new eggborg.

Still think a flashbang that doesnt stun but does severely disorient (blind, deafen, stumble) is a lot more interesting than the outright stun.

It keeps the item useful for crowd control without the area of effect megastun we have now.

And yes I do think sec needs buffs in other area's.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:49 pm**

CPTANT wrote:Still think a flashbang that doesnt stun but does severely disorient (blind, deafen, stumble) is a lot more interesting than the outright stun.

Sounds like CS gas.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:00 pm**

Gee, don't we have stuff like that in the armoury.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:47 pm**

I vote we get rid of flashbangs and tazers! Give them pistols and bay style targeting so if a little bitch assistant keeps being a little bitch then POP POP that's a dead little assistant bitch!

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:13 pm**

CPTANT wrote:Still think a flashbang that doesnt stun but does severely disorient (blind, deafen, stumble) is a lot more interesting than the outright stun.

It keeps the item useful for crowd control without the area of effect megastun we have now.

And yes I do think sec needs buffs in other area's.

Interesting? Maybe. Good? No.

calzilla1 wrote:I vote we get rid of flashbangs and tazers! Give them pistols and bay style targeting so if a little bitch assistant keeps being a little bitch then POP POP that's a dead little assistant bitch!

Moving sec away from stuns and into extreme lethality would be acceptable. It'd make people infinitely more mad though, instead of getting tazed for smashing a window you get shot for 40 damage.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:44 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:
calzilla1 wrote:I vote we get rid of flashbangs and tazers! Give them pistols and bay style targeting so if a little bitch assistant keeps being a little bitch then POP POP that's a dead little assistant bitch!
Moving sec away from stuns and into extreme lethality would be acceptable. It'd make people infinitely more mad though, instead of getting tazed for smashing a window you get shot for 40 damage.

40? Try 120, revolvers baybeeeeeee

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:28 am**

CosmicScientist wrote:
Cik wrote:i'm still confused as to why nerfing sec is in any way desirable

are sec winning too much? i mean, if winning is counted as existing after like 20 minutes in a high deathrate round then i don't think they ever win

the ever-increasing power of low effort murderboners does kind of need a counter, and sec are far below their previous power level now that sillicons can't really help them.

playing sec is already pretty much a punishment role. i don't think they need nerfs.
The sentiments here, and I'm projecting, are that the flashbang isn't a necessarily fun item, not that security needs to be nerfed.

The easy solution to these emotions is to do nothing, the cheap solution is to have an inventory shuffle of what Oldman said and the good solution would be to either rework or replace flashbangs with something more fun that isn't as useless as pepper spray to the redshirt on the go and sorting out its rarity. That said, I'd want Oldman's solution first since I doubt we'll get a new flashbang much like how we got a new eggborg.

crying for nerfs in the hopes that something else will be buffed to compensate never happens btw

see you know, everything

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:25 am**

calzilla1 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
calzilla1 wrote:I vote we get rid of flashbangs and tazers! Give them pistols and bay style targeting so if a little bitch assistant keeps being a little bitch then POP POP that's a dead little assistant bitch!
Moving sec away from stuns and into extreme lethality would be acceptable. It'd make people infinitely more mad though, instead of getting tazed for smashing a window you get shot for 40 damage.
40? Try 120, revolvers baybeeeeeee

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:51 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:Gee, don't we have stuff like that in the armoury.

Quite. I suggested many times to buff pepper spray and tear gas (which are very rarely used), so we could nerf or adjust other tools.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:45 pm**

Why does everything have to be the same uniform level of shit? Nobody uses that stuff for a reason. If you really want to fix them, buff them and don't nerf flashbangs, the meta will stabilize things automatically if they really are just as good.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:12 pm**

Equally useful fool.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:52 pm**

I've been burned too many times by people using "rebalancing" to nerf something into oblivion

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:32 pm**

If you need an screenwide stun that only you are immune to as sec. Then maybe you shouldn't be playing sec...

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:50 pm**

Acquire skill

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:53 pm**

Flashbangs aren't too hard to deal with. They have a lot of easily accessible counters, and they're quite difficult to cook correctly. If you're running, it's unlikely someone will be able to flashbang you.
There's nothing wrong with security having a strong tool that works well if used effectively.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:17 pm**

Jembo wrote:If you need an screenwide stun that only you are immune to as sec. Then maybe you shouldn't be playing sec...

Maybe if you're worried about the paramilitary police stunning you, then maybe you shouldn't be antagonizing sec...

Side note, putting sec gear (like flashbangs) into cargo tends to worsen the cargo players game experience, as at the slightest hint of trouble justifying it (nuke ops, revs, cult), Security/Captain tends to take over the cargo bay and use their access to sidetrack the QM, take minerals from the ORM to pay for shotguns, etc etc.

Having gear that everyone expects in cargo will just lead to roundstart requests/not-a-request-I-already-used-the-console for them.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:31 pm**

It's ridiculously easy to get the counter with the new item damage meme.
>craft spear
>walk into a security outpost
>throw spear at locker until it breaks
>get bowmans and shades
>get lynched for having them
Flashbangs are meant to counter antagonists who are not well prepared, such as murderboners who don't take ten seconds to do the above. If you don't get the counter to it, then you deserve to be screwed by a screenwide stun since it's extremely easy to protect against.
On the other hand, flashbangs are also good for nonantagonists, which brings up the question, what are you doing antagonizing security? (Flashbangs on the shuttle for no reason is considered shuttle grief, ahelp it if you see it. The officer might've had a good reason to use it though, so the admin might do nothing.)
TLDR: git gud

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:47 pm**

Arianya wrote:
Maybe if you're worried about the paramilitary police stunning you, then maybe you shouldn't be antagonizing sec...

BeeSting12 wrote:I
On the other hand, flashbangs are also good for nonantagonists, which brings up the question, what are you doing antagonizing security?

Yes it's clear to me, the reason flashbangs are a screenwide AoE stun, that all sec personal are completely immune even if standing next to, is because the counter is so easy. Just don't piss off sec, look at sec, or even be on station, just go mining, or jump out an airlock. Easiest counter NA.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:38 am**

Arianya wrote:
Jembo wrote:If you need an screenwide stun that only you are immune to as sec. Then maybe you shouldn't be playing sec...
Maybe if you're worried about the paramilitary police stunning you, then maybe you shouldn't be antagonizing sec...

Side note, putting sec gear (like flashbangs) into cargo tends to worsen the cargo players game experience, as at the slightest hint of trouble justifying it (nuke ops, revs, cult), Security/Captain tends to take over the cargo bay and use their access to sidetrack the QM, take minerals from the ORM to pay for shotguns, etc etc.

Having gear that everyone expects in cargo will just lead to roundstart requests/not-a-request-I-already-used-the-console for them.

>le "if they dont agree with any aspect of sec at all they must be strictly anti-sec" meme

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:59 am**

Jembo wrote:
Arianya wrote:
Maybe if you're worried about the paramilitary police stunning you, then maybe you shouldn't be antagonizing sec...

BeeSting12 wrote:I
On the other hand, flashbangs are also good for nonantagonists, which brings up the question, what are you doing antagonizing security?
Yes it's clear to me, the reason flashbangs are a screenwide AoE stun, that all sec personal are completely immune even if standing next to, is because the counter is so easy. Just don't piss off sec, look at sec, or even be on station, just go mining, or jump out an airlock. Easiest counter NA.

The only times you'll be affected by a flashbang if you truly dindu nuffin is:
Shuttle grief (ahelp it)
Officer is a shitter (ahelp it)
You were near somebody who did do something, and got hit by the flashbang. You got a stun, and assuming security had the situation under control, you should be fine.
And yeah, you probably shouldn't piss off security because it's a bad idea.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:24 am**

They're not paramilitary police, they're just mallcops with okay gear

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:27 am**

Ya know there was a reason sec officer's jackboots and armor had slowdown on them.

Also kek @anyone thinking they are gonna order flashbangs through cargo to fight nukes.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:06 am**

oranges wrote:They're not paramilitary police, they're just mallcops with okay gear

Mall cops aren't licensed to carry riot shotguns let alone murder lasers.

PKPenguin321 wrote: >le "if they dont agree with any aspect of sec at all they must be strictly anti-sec" meme

I've yet to see an argument against flashbangs in here that wasn't pretty clearly from the PoV of a greytider whos salty about sec getting him with "a screenwide stun"

Jembo wrote: Yes it's clear to me, the reason flashbangs are a screenwide AoE stun, that all sec personal are completely immune even if standing next to, is because the counter is so easy. Just don't piss off sec, look at sec, or even be on station, just go mining, or jump out an airlock. Easiest counter NA.

Ah yes, the mystical police officer who goes around throwing flashbangs on the station for no raisin, and who is obviously just doing it to oppress you.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Don't want to be earfucked by a flashbang? Don't fuck with sec.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:26 pm**

I'm going to have to reiterate the point. My issue isn't with sec fucking with normal people, or antags. My issue with flashbangs are they are completely unbalanced. I also have to point out, that not a single person has stated why sec needs an screenwide stun, that then are immune, and are completely immune to any sort of friendly fire while using. The only argument put forth so far, has been. Don't fuck with sec, not really a convincing argument over flashbangs balance.

The only argument that holds any sort of weight is the it's easy to counter argument. Which still doesn't validate why sec needs a stun that they are immune to but others are not, unless they jump though hoops. Bad play should be punished, if you're flash banging all your follow officers, you should get shit on for it. Just like what happens if you accidentally tase a fellow officer. Friendly fire is a huge part of the game, and this is a very common item that completely ignores that aspect of the game.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:35 pm**

Jembo wrote:I also have to point out, that not a single person has stated why sec needs an screenwide stun, that then are immune, and are completely immune to any sort of friendly fire while using.

Flashbangs are pretty much required for security to survive during rev rounds or other teamantag rounds where you can be fighting half a dozen or more people. Removing the one item sec has to deal with mobs would upset a lot of balance in team antag rounds.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:48 pm**

Owegno wrote:
Jembo wrote:I also have to point out, that not a single person has stated why sec needs an screenwide stun, that then are immune, and are completely immune to any sort of friendly fire while using.
Flashbangs are pretty much required for security to survive during rev rounds or other teamantag rounds where you can be fighting half a dozen or more people. Removing the one item sec has to deal with mobs would upset a lot of balance in team antag rounds.

Basically this.

Also for dealing with greytiders who like to disarm spam and so would be problematic to deal with with a tazer/stunbaton in certain circumstances.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:32 pm**

Arianya wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote: >le "if they dont agree with any aspect of sec at all they must be strictly anti-sec" meme
I've yet to see an argument against flashbangs in here that wasn't pretty clearly from the PoV of a greytider whos salty about sec getting him with "a screenwide stun.

Hahaha point in case
>screenwide stun is objectively lame
>if you say this, it means you are a greytider and your points are invalid
>"i dont think youre all strictly anti-sec, it's just that if you disagree with me you conveniently are!"
people who read this thread should take note to ignore your posts in it

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:43 am**

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Arianya wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote: >le "if they dont agree with any aspect of sec at all they must be strictly anti-sec" meme
I've yet to see an argument against flashbangs in here that wasn't pretty clearly from the PoV of a greytider whos salty about sec getting him with "a screenwide stun.
Hahaha point in case
>screenwide stun is objectively lame
>if you say this, it means you are a greytider and your points are invalid
>"i dont think youre all strictly anti-sec, it's just that if you disagree with me you conveniently are!"
people who read this thread should take note to ignore your posts in it

Funny how the guy accusing others of disqualifying people from the discussion is doing just that.

Maybe instead of accusing people of being one faction or another, you actually put forward an argument against flashbangs. You know, contribute to the discussion? Crazy idea, I know.

Screenwide stun may be "lame", but its a tactical necessity for game modes where sec will often be outnumbered, as well as situations such as greytide where individually tazing/batoning people is non-viable due to disarm spam.

If you can come up with a solution to these issues that isn't a screenwide stun or "lol git gud", feel free

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:25 am**

stop nerfing security/silicons for once in your lives, guys.

/tg/Station 13

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