/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:46 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

If we want to brainstorm this effectively, we need to lay out everything that was wrong with the original shadowling. Who wants to start?

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:42 am**

one thing I liked that we shouldn't change- the thralls couldn't convert. they had to carry the victims to the shadowling.

which actually beings up a problem. thralls should know where their master is at all times, like the xeno queen finder.

but back to what i was saying. I loved bringing cuffed humies to the shadowling itself.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:56 am**

keep the shadowling as the only converter but give it the ability to buff it's followers with permanent limb replacements, sight upgrades, auras, etc.

that's kind of underused imo, remove most of it's direct offensive potential and then sort of transplant it to the followers via dark gifts or something mite b kewl

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:13 am**

Let shadowlings produce special masks that need to be worn by the thralls in order to receive certain bonuses. These could range from super strength to a reliable form of weapons to defend the thrall. Or making corpses into zombies loyal to thralls and slings.

Make slings able to dive into vent ducts and produce cold wind to slow down sec or its victims. Make it able to create wind armor that lets them move in light for a limited amount of time. Finally give it a robust melee weapon like an arm blade in case it needs to fight.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:36 am**

Shadowling doesn't really need much besides the robust as hell glare. I never imagined it to be very strong in combat against more than one or two dudes, the powers it has should be for buffing the thralls as they do the grouped fighting, and panic buttons for when the hordes are closing in.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:18 am**

Luke Cox wrote:snip

In my own opinion:

Too low skill floor, too high ceiling. New players got ripped apart and good ones always won.
Bad ability design. They were very hard to catch and became unkillable murder machines if they got a good weapon.
Tying into that, Glare was not fun, and was very clunky to use.
Enthrall was a very boring ability and frustrating at best. If a thrall bumps you, start over, too bad.
Destroy Engines was my worst mistake as a coder. It led to indefinitely prolonged rounds and was universally reviled.
Dethralling surgery was slow and unnecessarily punishing. Thralls are strong enough with infinite stuns, camouflage, and innate comms.

That's all I can think of right now.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:01 am**

Lengthy easily disrupted actions are a pain and will quickly taint success into anxiety or boredom. Maybe forcing to sling to gain conversion points by saccing someone first would be better.

Changeling had the same issue when it depended on absorb.

Armhulen stop playing dumb I am saying the wisest thing would be not to make it a conversion mode at all. The fucking kicker on it all was thralls bring you converts faster than you can enthrall them cue sling just sitting there thralling one dude after the other + being bumped.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:15 am**

My favorite thing about Shadowling is that it's the antag that gave you a true sense of paranoia. They're after everyone unlike traitors, their thralls could be anyone with a covered face, and you know that they could be lurking anywhere in the dark. It sounds like we just need to rework their abilities from the ground up.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:44 pm**

its hilarious how many people want shadowling back especially when it doesn't even remove the cuck cult that was made to replace it

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:19 pm**

Cik wrote:keep the shadowling as the only converter but give it the ability to buff it's followers with permanent limb replacements, sight upgrades, auras, etc.

that's kind of underused imo, remove most of it's direct offensive potential and then sort of transplant it to the followers via dark gifts or something mite b kewl

You're right! I'll definitely take those into account when I'm working on new design.

D&B wrote:Let shadowlings produce special masks that need to be worn by the thralls in order to receive certain bonuses. These could range from super strength to a reliable form of weapons to defend the thrall. Or making corpses into zombies loyal to thralls and slings.

Make slings able to dive into vent ducts and produce cold wind to slow down sec or its victims. Make it able to create wind armor that lets them move in light for a limited amount of time. Finally give it a robust melee weapon like an arm blade in case it needs to fight.

Probably no to the masks. I also don't want them to be super robust and even more quick to escape. I'm generally an enemy of antagonists having tools for every scenario, so it probably won't happen.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Shadowling doesn't really need much besides the robust as hell glare. I never imagined it to be very strong in combat against more than one or two dudes, the powers it has should be for buffing the thralls as they do the grouped fighting, and panic buttons for when the hordes are closing in.

That's very true, but I still think that Glare isn't fun to be hit by.

Luke Cox wrote:My favorite thing about Shadowling is that it's the antag that gave you a true sense of paranoia. They're after everyone unlike traitors, their thralls could be anyone with a covered face, and you know that they could be lurking anywhere in the dark. It sounds like we just need to rework their abilities from the ground up.

I think that that paranoia was one of shadowling's real strengths and I want to enhance it with the new version.

confused rock wrote:its hilarious how many people want shadowling back especially when it doesn't even remove the cuck cult that was made to replace it

Clock cult was more intended to atone for the mistakes I made in the first version of shadowling than to replace it as a mode. They're not very similar other than conversion, and I consider clock cult to be a success - at least in its release form. I didn't get much opportunity to work on it after release, so any gripes you have with the gamemode other than its general concept probably wasn't me.

Now then, on a more interesting note, I'll leave a little tidbit so y'all can give your feedback on it. I'd love to hear what you think and get ideas. This is the new trademark ability of umbrages (new name) that will replace Glare.

Spoiler:

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:42 pm**

I thought it was a reference to Prototype

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:01 am**

Xhius, I love the shadowling name, please keep it

Umbra didn't stick and I doubt Umbrages won't either, though it is a cool name for the creature.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:05 am**

D&B wrote:I thought it was a reference to Prototype

My concept of "whip hand" isn't unique to just those two games, but I pretty obviously stole the idea of pulling yourself invisibly across distances from Dishonored 2's Far Reach. It seemed fun, and in testing it's pretty great to run around the station with, although slamming into walls hurts like hell.

Armhulen wrote:Xhius, I love the shadowling name, please keep it
Umbra didn't stick and I doubt Umbrages won't either, though it is a cool name for the creature.

Look I'm obsessed with the word "umbra" cut me some slack ok ;-;

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:07 am**

Can I kill you for a neat sword?

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:37 am**

DemonFiren wrote:Can I kill you for a neat sword?

Yeah.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:39 am**

Would it be better if the Shadowling's abilities involved fewer hard stuns and more disorientation? Things like hallucinations, EMPs, dizziness, etc. would be a bit more balanced and thematically accurate. Thralls aren't inherently bad, but the implementation was awful. I'm thinking this for a rework:

Abilities include chill, EMP, hallucination, disorient, etc.
Shadowling can only have 4 thralls at a time
Thralls are no longer the win condition
Shadowlings gain a soul absorption ability. Functions similarly to changeling's husk, but the victim lets out a loud scream (audio and text message)
Absorbing enough victims allows the shadowling to ascend

With these changes, the conversion aspect is greatly diminished without gutting it entirely. Getting abducted by a Shadowling or thrall gets a lot scarier, because you will die if nobody rescues you. Thematically, the abilities will be cool as fuck.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:08 am**

I don't like those changes. The Shadowling should have an army of brainwashed crew. the shadowling is always going to make their four converts the best players if it's smart.

on the topic of abilities, i dislike those too. maybe an ability for only the person affected to not be able to see light, or something fucky, but not random bullshit that the shadowling would never use, except for...

emp for shadowling? hoho no, get one of your thralls to kill it or suck it up. the shadowling should NOT get an AOE disable comms and borgs. at least glare was one target only. if you removed shadowling's 10000 ways to escape glare would be way more fair than emp shit, considering it completely fails to protect the shadowling if there's more than one person.

and if you know you're going to die, it's not scary. it's just ghosting as soon as you're caught. boo.

I do like the loud scream being heard when enthralling people, that would be nice. hearing screams in maintenance, hell fucking yes

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:10 am**

I was thinking that we've already got rev and two cults that focus on "an army of brainwashed crew". Wasn't that why everybody hated gang? Of course they're going to hunt down the most robust and well-equipped people they can find, that's the point. No antag in the game focuses on selective recruitment. The abilities are a means for a shadowling to stun or disable targets without hard stuns (everybody cried about glare). Bear in mind that all of these would have different ranges, cooldowns, etc. meaning that weaker things like daze will be spammed a lot more and chill/emp/etc. will be used when they go in for the kill or convert.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:12 am**

Xhuis wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Shadowling doesn't really need much besides the robust as hell glare. I never imagined it to be very strong in combat against more than one or two dudes, the powers it has should be for buffing the thralls as they do the grouped fighting, and panic buttons for when the hordes are closing in.
That's very true, but I still think that Glare isn't fun to be hit by.

Remind me how balancing things to be "fun" and capitulating to the NO STUNS THEY DUNK ME crowd ended for ling

Real talk about stuns: There's nothing wrong with them. Don't turn shadowling into another garbage antag like ling by gutting the stun and then adding shit gimmicks to try and fix it. It only makes things worse.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:33 am**

What if the stun was something that required direct physical contact?

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:51 am**

What if we don't change the stun and we just remove the shadowling's 12 escape spells

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:53 am**

Because Glare was a major point of contention for a lot of people. We should consider replacing it at least.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:01 am**

Luke Cox wrote:Because Glare was a major point of contention for a lot of people. We should consider replacing it at least.

i see your point, but
see

ShadowDimentio wrote: Real talk about stuns: There's nothing wrong with them. Don't turn shadowling into another garbage antag like ling by gutting the stun and then adding shit gimmicks to try and fix it. It only makes things worse.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:50 am**

while we bicker about what changes should be made to shadowling I'd like to call back to one of the first posts of the thread so as to not intimidate xhuis and scare him away from ever actually readding it

PKPenguin321 wrote:For now just add it back as it was and we can fix it from there.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:01 am**

PKPenguin321 wrote:while we bicker about what changes should be made to shadowling I'd like to call back to one of the first posts of the thread so as to not intimidate xhuis and scare him away from ever actually readding it
PKPenguin321 wrote:For now just add it back as it was and we can fix it from there.

the good penguin saves the thread

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:16 am**

I found it more interesting than the various cults and geng mode

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:25 am**

Can we have a new sprite for it? A light sensitive alien with psyonic abilities ought to be a pale abomination once it hatches. Maybe give it a cliché elongated broad head like a xeno queen for good measure.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:14 pm**

I prefer the black skin/chitin shell, it's an abomination that evolved to hunt in the dark, only makes sense that it's outer shell matches the shadows it lurks in.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:22 pm**

Evolution 101 says you evolve to match your environments coloration. Thus, shadowlings are black.

Luke Cox wrote:What if the stun was something that required direct physical contact?

Then it's just a stunbaton. Also getting close to anyone in maint without alerting them and having them run would be a hellish task, further made worse by how getting close to someone carrying a light would start to KILL you.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:33 pm**

Evolution 101 says you do whatever the fuck works.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:39 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:while we bicker about what changes should be made to shadowling I'd like to call back to one of the first posts of the thread so as to not intimidate xhuis and scare him away from ever actually readding it
PKPenguin321 wrote:For now just add it back as it was and we can fix it from there.

I saw that, but re-adding shadowlings right now would be difficult because of how many changes have been made to related files since then. I could do it, but I'm already somewhat deep into development, and I don't mind scrapping code at all. It gives me practice, so what's the loss?

Armhulen wrote:What if we don't change the stun and we just remove the shadowling's 12 escape spells

I'm gonna change both.

Luke Cox wrote:Because Glare was a major point of contention for a lot of people. We should consider replacing it at least.

'
See the Pass ability I shared earlier in the thread. The plan is for that to replace Glare.

Iatots wrote:Can we have a new sprite for it? A light sensitive alien with psyonic abilities ought to be a pale abomination once it hatches. Maybe give it a cliché elongated broad head like a xeno queen for good measure.

I've got some new sprites.

The sigils on their front and back are stylized shapes of their normal and progenitor forms.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:56 pm**

Red/black looks better than blue/black, but meh.

Also [groan], you're removing glare. Goodbye good gamemode, hello gimmicks and unfun.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:04 pm**

'Bring back shadowling'
"Yes!"
'wicked, here's your huggable fun time gamemode so you don't get triggered'
"SHADOWLING YOU NIT!"

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:28 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:Red/black looks better than blue/black, but meh.

I can easily shift the colors to red, it would take like half a minute.

Also [groan], you're removing glare. Goodbye good gamemode, hello gimmicks and unfun.

I can also easily put this back in. The general consensus around the ability seemed negative. In its Pass form it actually has an identical effect (stun/mute, this time it knocks down, however) when you have the mana for it, so it won't be leaving entirely.

Reece wrote:'Bring back shadowling'
"Yes!"
'wicked, here's your huggable fun time gamemode so you don't get triggered'
"SHADOWLING YOU NIT!"

Have you read through the thread and seen the poll results? People are very divided on what aspects of the gamemode should stay and what should leave. Nothing is final right now - not even the colors.

As a rule of thumb, don't get worked up over changes like this, especially so early on in development. People are fond of believing that anything coded is set in stone, and that isn't true.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:03 pm**

Xhuis wrote:
Also [groan], you're removing glare. Goodbye good gamemode, hello gimmicks and unfun.
I can also easily put this back in. The general consensus around the ability seemed negative. In its Pass form it actually has an identical effect (stun/mute, this time it knocks down, however) when you have the mana for it, so it won't be leaving entirely.

So turning shadowling into ling with their chem resource. I'm fine with having a resource system attached to shadowling so long as it's reasonable and ideally regenerates.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:16 pm**

replacing the glare with a melee high cost stun and higher cost if mute is pretty qq, man but i'm not judging since it's so early in.
also, i kinda wanted the shadowling to be able to easily imcapacitate single targets but if you're witchhunting with friends, fire and pitchforks then the shadowling should have more trouble. so with that said...

Spoiler:

hopefully that's some direction on where to go with it, best of luck ecks deeius

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:32 pm**

That name.
It makes me take...
Umbrage.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:36 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:Evolution 101 says you evolve to match your environments coloration. Thus, shadowlings are black.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:40 pm**

This is the first tangible piece of development that you have seen. Some things to note:

This alerts the AI when it's done and should be used as a last resort
It's incredibly loud and consumes all of your mana

Thoughts?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... a_door.mp4

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:42 pm**

You know there are black colored olms right

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:43 pm**

I LOVE THE NEW ICONS

I HATE THE NEW ICON TEXT COLOR

I CAN'T READ THAT

honestly this is getting made a lot differently than the original shadowling, with completely reworked abilities, so i'm only half hype.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:50 pm**

Armhulen wrote:Enthrall - I loved this ability and you shouldn't touch it. I mean we can talk about glare but Enthrall is undebatable
Hivemind Commune - Just turn this into shadowling talk, and this is optional but the shadowling makes loud chittering when doing it
Hatch - I love the design of this ability, if you're not careful with where you hatch people will be waiting outside to lynch you give you hugs
Glare - Keep in mind this is a one target ability, on a 30 second cooldown. If you're not alone, there's no fucking way this is going to do much. It's not OP, don't change it, but that's just my opinion, man
Veil - Nothing to talk about here, make sure you bring this over
Shadow Walk - Make the shadowling not be able to shadow walk over lighted areas or change it. the shadowling already heals in the dark, can stun, and there's more ways he can escape listed below. Or, on the other hand, keep this and delete the other 30 escape tools
Icy Veins - AKA escape tool that doesn't help the shadowling convert in any way, delet this.
Collective Mind - Either keep it as is or make it into the clockwork hud that gives a count in the top right (with thralls needed til next upgrade), if you're doing the top right thing then upgrades should just be automatic.
Destroy Engines - I don't like it but he does need a way to slow the shuttle. change it or reword it but this just seems lazy.
Blindness Smoke - ANOTHER ESCAPE TOOL, REEEEEEEEEEEE
Drain Life - *this* is the OP shit, not the glare. 10 second heal you hurt aoe everyone around you. what the fuck, remove this one too
Sonic Screech - I don't know how I feel about shadowling getting EMPs, but I suppose it's a necessary evil
Black Recuperation - extemely fucking cool, keep it. remove the revive if you have to but the shadowling actually needs to find the thrall body for it first

hopefully that's some direction on where to go with it, best of luck ecks deeius

Thanks for the feedback and the luck! In response to your thoughts:

Enthrall is thematically cool but in practice can be finnicky and annoying to work with. Although it did provide tension as you had to commit, I'll probably have it more interesting this time around. And I actually mean "interesting" as in "looks and sounds cooler". not "reworked 223412% of the way to Mars".
Hivemind Commune is replaced with Mindlink, which only functions in the same z-level.
Because of all the feedback regarding Glare, it's staying in the form of a function of Pass. With the mana system, it'll still be easily usable against single targets, and completely viable as a capture tool.
Veil is unchanged in all but name and spookiness.
Shadow Walk needs some definite touchups. I like your suggestion of only dark areas, but it'd be tough to code.
Icy Veins was a useless, frustrating ability that will be cut.
Collective Mind was an easier thing to do for my inexperienced self than have it check constantly for upgrades. It'll probably be automatic now.
Destroy Engines was rushed out and won't stay.
Blindness Smoke was meh in the first place. I don't like it.
I felt like Drain Life was one of the shadowling's more thematically strong abilities, and that it could have stayed had the rest been removed. A similar lifedrain effect will come in Umbrage but will be 200% spookier and fun to use.
Sonic Screech was the way slings stopped borgs. Pass will have that functionality.
Revival was pretty iffy, but it can now be balanced out by a high mana cost. I might also make it so braindeads become walking corpses, slaves to the umbrage.

Armhulen wrote:I LOVE THE NEW ICONS

I HATE THE NEW ICON TEXT COLOR

I CAN'T READ THAT

honestly this is getting made a lot differently than the original shadowling, with completely reworked abilities, so i'm only half hype.

They are definitely having reworked abilities. By text color, do you mean the stuff in the tooltips? I can see how that's a problem, but it's part of the style I used and I probably can't change it.

Thanks again! This is the kind of feedback I find extremely valuable.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:53 pm**

What are the thoughts on abilities? Should umbrages start with all abilities unlocked but mana-intensive until later on, or gained through progression? Give me your thoughts.
p.s. Most abilities will gain upgrades as you advance. Pass's "jump to a tile" function will become more precise and enable jumping behind you - without that, trying to do huge directional turns will usually result in slamming into a wall.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:58 pm**

i'm excited. make sure to keep the shadowling true names, those are fun

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:00 pm**

Armhulen wrote:i'm excited. make sure to keep the shadowling true names, those are fun

As in the names changing when they hatch? Yeah, those'll stay.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:08 pm**

Umbrages have all abilities at the start but their mindpower (mana is for wizards, mindpower is better) is small, however it expands with more conversion (something something hivemind).

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:15 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:Umbrages have all abilities at the start but their mindpower (mana is for wizards, mindpower is better) is small, however it expands with more conversion (something something hivemind).

I was thinking about replacing the name with Psi or something similar, since their abilities definitely focus around mental control. Mindpower is kind of unfitting, but Brainpower is most assuredly what I'm giving them for April Fools.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:16 pm**

Name them Psi Points.

Taht way, I can laugh when Slings complain their PP is too small.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:37 pm**

tfw hyper aware pointz!!!

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:59 pm**

non-humanoid shadow entity with some spooky powers but all around a short term gain for a long term loss to the shadowlings.

Something like this could be cool. Some creepy fucking other dimensional monstrosity designed to inflict paranoia and fear. It could have an auroral around it that consumes light and inflicts people around it with terrifying hallucinations (I'm not just talking spooky, I mean genuine nightmare fuel) and maybe hear shit like people screaming for help over the radio.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:04 pm**

ADD JUMPSCARE HALLUCINATIONS YES

/tg/Station 13

Umbrage: Shadowling Redux (delayed?)

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