Flight Suits.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:07 am #268934

I've never really given much thought to flight suits until today
Saw a dude in one flying around against some nuke ops. He was basically an incredibly fast, player controlled stunning projectile. He could knock them down and disarm them before they could even react to his presence, with zero noticeable downside.

Now, this was partly fault of the nuke ops. They took a very long time getting to the station because they tried to send a stealth op in. However, it was still only 20-25~ish minutes into the 35 minute (total) round. That seems pretty quick for an "I am become god" suit.

I don't know if there's some super obvious crazy downside to these that i'm missing, but the ability to move at supersonic speeds and go through doors while also stunning anyone in your way instantly seems... awful.
I'm not sure what purpose they exist for. That's the big issue. What do they exist for? Why are they available at all?

christ110 · Post by **christ110** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:17 am #268966

>I ded, pls nerf
The flight suits are essentially a printable hardsuit that robotics can make as an upgraded hardsuit.
It's purpose is to give someone other than cargo the ability to mass-aquire suits and be a generic hardsuit.
Keep in mind it requires a fuck ton of mats, plus stock parts, crashing into walls at high speed is lethal, and you can't use a backpack with it in flight mode.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:15 pm #268994

People tend to downplay how good it is but it doesn't really have any place in non-meme rounds.

>plus STOCK PARTS
woah

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:08 pm #269031

Yeah but also remember if you want to be an asshole you can fly down a hallway and repeatedly crash into people.

If anything crashing into people should cause damage too. Something akin the jump boots charge that knocks you down and causes slight brute damage.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:22 pm #269045

I remember robustin making the point that "how come rnd can get flight suits, they're OP and take forever" in resoonse to the engineering point system rewards being criticized, but if it takes that little time to get them then that's a bigger deal imo

I don't know the specifics but if the round didn't even clear 40 minutes then something about the flight suit needs to be changed

Post by **Cobby** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:35 pm #269109

They're not seen a lot on sybil due to the costs but what were the flight suit purposes again, and have they achieved that purpose or are they used 9/10 as a weapon?

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:50 pm #269118

I threw four watermelons full of acid at someone in a flight suit and the suit wouldn't melt. Someone fix that.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:31 pm #269128

Yes people actually use them for space exploration
I don't think one round of nuke ops getting their shit kicked warrants nerfing.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:32 pm #269129

Lazengann wrote:I threw four watermelons full of acid at someone in a flight suit and the suit wouldn't melt. Someone fix that.

Intentional. Screw your acid melons.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:52 pm #269140

kevinz000 wrote:
Lazengann wrote:I threw four watermelons full of acid at someone in a flight suit and the suit wouldn't melt. Someone fix that.
Intentional. Screw your acid melons.

Making things you like immune to counters sounds like a wonderful attitude.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:01 pm #269146

Lazengann wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:
Lazengann wrote:I threw four watermelons full of acid at someone in a flight suit and the suit wouldn't melt. Someone fix that.
Intentional. Screw your acid melons.
Making things you like immune to counters sounds like a wonderful attitude.

I don't think that's what kevinz is saying

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:25 pm #269161

crashing into walls at high speed is lethal

This actually sounds pretty hilarious and I want to see it. Even better if your character looks like he's lying down while using it so it looks like he's slamming head first into a wall while trying to fly like Superman.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:42 pm

I have perished please remove that which has defeated me

The nukers deserved it by making their presence known, if they wanted to win they should have ducked into a narrow hallway and shot down it, likely catching flightsuit guy in the crossfire. It's their own fault they got dunked.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:49 pm #269253

Lazengann wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:
Lazengann wrote:I threw four watermelons full of acid at someone in a flight suit and the suit wouldn't melt. Someone fix that.
Intentional. Screw your acid melons.
Making things you like immune to counters sounds like a wonderful attitude.

So make something with that high material cost get instantly nullified by something you can grow hundreds of easily..? Nah. Acid resistance stays.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:00 pm #269259

Can you at least add slight brute damage to not reward the motherfuckers that fly up and down a hallway just to knock passerbys over.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:14 pm #269276

D&B wrote:Can you at least add slight brute damage to not reward the motherfuckers that fly up and down a hallway just to knock passerbys over.

Sure I'll add something to make it less enabling.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:16 pm #269278

christ110 wrote:>I ded, pls nerf

...Like I said, I was observing.

christ110 wrote: It's purpose is to give someone other than cargo the ability to mass-aquire suits and be a generic hardsuit.

Except it's clearly a lot more than just a "generic hardsuit". It's exponentially more powerful and useful.

christ110 wrote:>I ded, pls nerf
Keep in mind it requires a fuck ton of mats, plus stock parts, crashing into walls at high speed is lethal, and you can't use a backpack with it in flight mode.

>stock parts
ohh wowwwww
And I saw the dude going mach 3 and slam into a wall and he got up after a second and just kept going. He even caught some L6 bullets and was ok.

Qbopper wrote:I remember robustin making the point that "how come rnd can get flight suits, they're OP and take forever" in resoonse to the engineering point system rewards being criticized, but if it takes that little time to get them then that's a bigger deal imo

I don't know the specifics but if the round didn't even clear 40 minutes then something about the flight suit needs to be changed

Yeah if the response to flight suits is the unholy abortion that is the engineering point system, maybe they aren't so good.

kevinz000 wrote:Yes people actually use them for space exploration
I don't think one round of nuke ops getting their shit kicked warrants nerfing.

Hardsuits and regular space suits are already good enough for space exploration, and have been for... ever.

ShadowDimentio wrote:I have perished please remove that which has defeated me

The nukers deserved it by making their presence known, if they wanted to win they should have ducked into a narrow hallway and shot down it, likely catching flightsuit guy in the crossfire. It's their own fault they got dunked.

Again, did not die. I was observing the situation. "I ded pls nerf" is invalid.
The nuke up was in a narrow hallway, the bridge hall on meta. The flightsuit moves too fast for firing down the hall to matter. They'll maybe catch 1 or 2 bullets (they did) but it's not enough. They're fast enough to hit the op before anything can be done.

Just to clarify;
I'm not trying to posture that these are necessarily completely broken or overpowered.
But from the perspective of an outsider looking down at a hand full of situations involving these suits, the only thing I can think is
"These really have absolutely no reason to exist that I can think of."
I believe they can be constructed far too quickly, considering that they might just be the most powerful stunning weapon in the entire game (maybe).
The user seems to be at very little risk while using them, despite what you say about collisions being lethal.
The idea that they would be "mass produced generic hardsuits" is laughable.

I just don't get why they exist at all.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:21 pm #269285

Trading off inventory for mobility as well as space exploration.
Whatever rebalance/nerf gimme a week at most.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:24 pm #269287

I don't really think losing a back slot somehow justifies just how deadly these are, let alone their existence
and again
hardsuits and space suits are kind of already enough to go explore space
is the point of these just to cut down how long it takes to like, what, 5 minutes?

ShadowDimentio · Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:24 pm

>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:45 pm #269299

" crashing into walls at high speed is lethal,"

Thats the supposed downside. Also when I played with them you would crash a lot.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:48 pm #269302

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow

It happened in the narrow part, the 2 wide part. Are you trying to imply that you're supposed to lure flight suit users into maint or something?

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:52 pm #269305

kevinz000 wrote:So make something with that high material cost get instantly nullified by something you can grow hundreds of easily..? Nah. Acid resistance stays.

There's nothing instant about it. Someone with Botany access has to spend the time making them, in an area where everyone can see what they're doing, and if the acid fruit actually hits, the guy in the flight suit would have enough time to be all the way across the station or even hit the showers before the suit is destroyed. What you should've said is "I dislike botany" and left it at that. If the only way to stop some joker who's crashing into everyone repeatedly is to pray someone picked Security and has good aim, I don't think that's great design.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:06 pm #269329

Lazengann wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:So make something with that high material cost get instantly nullified by something you can grow hundreds of easily..? Nah. Acid resistance stays.
There's nothing instant about it. Someone with Botany access has to spend the time making them, in an area where everyone can see what they're doing, and if the acid fruit actually hits, the guy in the flight suit would have enough time to be all the way across the station or even hit the showers before the suit is destroyed. What you should've said is "I dislike botany" and left it at that. If the only way to stop some joker who's crashing into everyone repeatedly is to pray someone picked Security and has good aim, I don't think that's great design.

That's great but something to that costs that much shouldn't get shat on by someone's acid tomatoes.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:08 pm #269330

kevinz000 wrote: That's great but something to that costs that much shouldn't get shat on by someone's acid tomatoes.

That's why I was throwing melons

ShadowDimentio · Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:08 pm

danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow
It happened in the narrow part, the 2 wide part. Are you trying to imply that you're supposed to lure flight suit users into maint or something?

Yes. It's an extremely effective strategy as operative.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:12 pm #269332

kevinz000 wrote:
Lazengann wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:So make something with that high material cost get instantly nullified by something you can grow hundreds of easily..? Nah. Acid resistance stays.
There's nothing instant about it. Someone with Botany access has to spend the time making them, in an area where everyone can see what they're doing, and if the acid fruit actually hits, the guy in the flight suit would have enough time to be all the way across the station or even hit the showers before the suit is destroyed. What you should've said is "I dislike botany" and left it at that. If the only way to stop some joker who's crashing into everyone repeatedly is to pray someone picked Security and has good aim, I don't think that's great design.
That's great but something to that costs that much shouldn't get shat on by someone's acid tomatoes.

if it costs a lot it has to be invincible or ELSE

Post by **oranges** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:37 pm #269337

if someone maks a pr removing the acid resistance I'll merge it because kevinzz is out of his mind

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:02 pm #269412

ShadowDimentio wrote:
danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow
It happened in the narrow part, the 2 wide part. Are you trying to imply that you're supposed to lure flight suit users into maint or something?
Yes. It's an extremely effective strategy as operative.

It's unreasonable to balance something like this around that, because they'll just refuse to go in maint if that's the case.
Come on, dude. Surely you don't believe this is fine.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:30 am #269459

starmute wrote:" crashing into walls at high speed is lethal,"

Thats the supposed downside. Also when I played with them you would crash a lot.

If I were an admin I'd spawn myself in space with a flight suit during a murderbone round and make a bunch of long winded Centcomm announcement stating that Flight Man was on his way to save the day and that the syndicates best beware because the super hero is there, and blah blah blah. Maybe play a superman midi too.

Then immediately fly right into a wall and die and then gib my corpse to make it look like I got spattered against it.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:12 am #269478

danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow
It happened in the narrow part, the 2 wide part. Are you trying to imply that you're supposed to lure flight suit users into maint or something?
Yes. It's an extremely effective strategy as operative.
It's unreasonable to balance something like this around that, because they'll just refuse to go in maint if that's the case.
Come on, dude. Surely you don't believe this is fine.

Shadowdimentio is not helping.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:21 am

danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow
It happened in the narrow part, the 2 wide part. Are you trying to imply that you're supposed to lure flight suit users into maint or something?
Yes. It's an extremely effective strategy as operative.
It's unreasonable to balance something like this around that, because they'll just refuse to go in maint if that's the case.
Come on, dude. Surely you don't believe this is fine.

It makes sense. What's the weakness of something that lets you move extremely fast and hurts you if you run into a wall? Cramped corridors. And if they refuse to go in maint, great, now you have 1/4th the station to yourself.

Just slap 10 damage to the user if they hit somebody and 5 to the person hit and call it a day. I barely ever see these things in play, losing your back slot is a VERY big price to pay, and super speed is a good incentive, we don't need to keep nerfing something very specialized and with downsides just because it's good.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:23 am #269550

kevinz000 wrote:
danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
danno wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Bridge hall on meta
>2 wide near the mouths, 5 wide in the center
>Narrow
It happened in the narrow part, the 2 wide part. Are you trying to imply that you're supposed to lure flight suit users into maint or something?
Yes. It's an extremely effective strategy as operative.
It's unreasonable to balance something like this around that, because they'll just refuse to go in maint if that's the case.
Come on, dude. Surely you don't believe this is fine.
Shadowdimentio is not helping.

Does he ever?

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:27 am #269551

I don't think a nerf is needed
I just honestly think these should be done away with
I think i'm being unclear in how I feel or something; I'm shocked at just how strong these are, but that's not the real problem I have.
The problem I have is the complete meaninglessness of them. I still don't believe they serve a worthwhile purpose.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:44 am

danno wrote:I don't think a nerf is needed
I just honestly think these should be done away with
I think i'm being unclear in how I feel or something; I'm shocked at just how strong these are, but that's not the real problem I have.
The problem I have is the complete meaninglessness of them. I still don't believe they serve a worthwhile purpose.

This was my issue with them in the initial PR too, they just seem to exist for the sake of existing, different enough to justify being in the code (their momentum system is pretty nifty) but similar enough to, say, a regular spacesuit that they rarely impact a round to a serious extent

Maybe reuse the momentum system on something cooler but ditch them in their current state

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:55 am #269567

PKPenguin321 wrote:
danno wrote:I don't think a nerf is needed
I just honestly think these should be done away with
I think i'm being unclear in how I feel or something; I'm shocked at just how strong these are, but that's not the real problem I have.
The problem I have is the complete meaninglessness of them. I still don't believe they serve a worthwhile purpose.
This was my issue with them in the initial PR too, they just seem to exist for the sake of existing, different enough to justify being in the code (their momentum system is pretty nifty) but similar enough to, say, a regular spacesuit that they rarely impact a round to a serious extent

Maybe reuse the momentum system on something cooler but ditch them in their current state

Fire extinguishers and thrown objects in zero g maybe? If nothing else it'd be hilarious to see if you can get enough momentum going to the point where you move so fast that you basically break the game and practically warp between z levels until you hit something so hard it kills you instantly.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:58 am

Jacough wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
danno wrote:I don't think a nerf is needed
I just honestly think these should be done away with
I think i'm being unclear in how I feel or something; I'm shocked at just how strong these are, but that's not the real problem I have.
The problem I have is the complete meaninglessness of them. I still don't believe they serve a worthwhile purpose.
This was my issue with them in the initial PR too, they just seem to exist for the sake of existing, different enough to justify being in the code (their momentum system is pretty nifty) but similar enough to, say, a regular spacesuit that they rarely impact a round to a serious extent

Maybe reuse the momentum system on something cooler but ditch them in their current state
Fire extinguishers and thrown objects in zero g maybe? If nothing else it'd be hilarious to see if you can get enough momentum going to the point where you move so fast that you basically break the game and practically warp between z levels until you hit something so hard it kills you instantly.

>use your duffelbags full of extinguishers to propel yourself up to mach 10 before looping around and essentially acting as a meteor to the station, killing yourself in the process
fuckin
Fund it!

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:50 pm #269612

They're meant for navigating hostile environments which was why they had protection from fire and acid and space in the first place. Combat is an added "bonus" (you lose your back slot so you can only carry a few things without crashing and losing it all.
As for giving other objects this momentum stuff probably a bad idea to do it enough masse as even one flight suit takes 30ms to process (when it is alone)

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:07 pm #269615

Flight suits are fun but there's better options for combat.
Don't need a nerf, don't need removing. They're just there for when you get super high research and mining delivers the thicc load.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:36 pm #269653

PKPenguin321 wrote: >use your duffelbags full of extinguishers to propel yourself up to mach 10 before looping around and essentially acting as a meteor to the station, killing yourself in the process
fuckin
Fund it!

yeah this sounds hilarious

kevinz000 wrote:They're meant for navigating hostile environments which was why they had protection from fire and acid and space in the first place.

You keep saying this but... I don't know what "hostile environments" you're even referring to. Lavaland?? I've never, ever seen a miner make use of a flight suit. It didn't even occur to me that they could.
I don't think your reasoning is enough to justify them.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:12 pm #269672

Lavaland is one, they are perfect for going over lava and chasms (just don't crash!). Space is another. Anyways I'll be nerfing the issues they're causing on station as they came from something that would be hilarious but I guess they are too powerful.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:16 pm #269719

Just make them have strong armor in low pressure enviroments.
and make them shit in normal pressure ones

onleavedontatme · Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:26 pm

oranges wrote:if someone maks a pr removing the acid resistance I'll merge it because kevinzz is out of his mind

Not sure something that costs as much as a mech should be instantly destroyed by a single one of botanies thousands of free plants.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:04 pm #269759

Risk: It's very expensive and fragile

Reward: you can fucking fly

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:04 pm #269761

oranges wrote:Risk: It's very expensive and fragile

Reward: you can fucking fly

yeah that sounds about right

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:14 am #269814

oranges wrote:Risk: It's very expensive and fragile

Reward: you can fucking fly

How about I just make it have a damage system so it gets disabled and requires stuff to fix instead oh wait I shouldn't until I get power armor done in twenty years

killerx09 · Post by **killerx09** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:29 am #269974

I like the citrus's compromise.

XDTM · Post by **XDTM** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:42 am #269976

Hold on if the issue is that it stuns people on hit why don't we just fucking remove the stun on hit instead of advocating flightsuit removal

Alipheese · Post by **Alipheese** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:03 pm #270004

XDTM wrote:Hold on if the issue is that it stuns people on hit why don't we just fucking remove the stun on hit instead of advocating flightsuit removal

No let's just remove all of kevinz work because we can.
Also memes.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:04 pm

christ110 wrote:>I ded, pls nerf
The flight suits are essentially a printable hardsuit that robotics can make as an upgraded hardsuit.
It's purpose is to give someone other than cargo the ability to mass-aquire suits and be a generic hardsuit.
Keep in mind it requires a fuck ton of mats, plus stock parts, crashing into walls at high speed is lethal, and you can't use a backpack with it in flight mode.

>Comparing a supersonic indoor flying stunning projectile with over double the vision area of normal crew to a fucking hardsuit