/tg/Station 13

So they nerfed the DNA manipulator in the middle of the night without adding it to the changelog. I didn't open up the code but changes I noticed right away were:

At round start:
Yield limited to 4, down from 10.
Production speed limited to 9, down from 1. Holy fuck. A production speed of 9 is worse than(I'm pretty sure) every plant in the vending machine. I think the average production speed is 5. That is plain detrimental.
Lifespan limited to 35, down from 100.

I see no reason why this had to happen and why it wasn't even in the changelog. People claim Botany is overpowered and needed a nerf, but nobody can give a real example why. Botany never goes on station destroying plant rampages because their deadly plants are mostly gimmicks instead of plain deadly. I finally bullied Cobby into giving an example as to why he has to nerf it, so he will be my sole bully target in this post. He said amatoxin and sulphuric acid tomatos are overpowered and an example of why he's nerfing botany. They're not. I tried them, they barely do any damage and it takes more than one to melt clothes. I'm positive the amatoxin did nothing and that Cobby is a fucking retard. But then I tried fleurosuphuric acid and amanitin tomatos, to see if the upgraded versions of those chemicals would do anything. Nope. They're still hot garbage outclassed by tomatos full of just acid.

Potassium and Water Tomatos don't delimb or even knock people out, you have to throw a shitload at prone targets without them standing up to get any results, and in the "one stun and you're dead" gameplay of SS13 if they're laying down you could multitool them to death anyway. Various types of weed with hypodermic prickles need multiple throws to do much, aren't that deadly and people can just throw them back. Fruits filled with acid don't do much damage and people can just walk under a shower or wash their shit with a sink to save their equipment. Electric tomatos don't even work and electric bananas only shock for the first slip. Combustible lemons are barely better than IEDs and their completely random detonation times means they'll either blow up in your hand or they'll take so long to detonate the other person could just walk away. "Oh but Botany needed to be nerfed because moving traits is too easy" yeah well the traits don't get results, killer tomato spam is far deadlier than any of this and you need someone to harvest your replica pod to actually do it.

Botany was fine. If someone can name an actual overpowered fruit like everyone memes about I'll walk this post back a bit. Until then, fuck off Cobby.

calzilla1 wrote:

>Botany never destroys the station since their plants are gimmicks.

Fake News

D&B wrote:>Botany never destroys the station since their plants are gimmicks.

Fake News

That was poorly worded, I meant more in the murderbone sense. Kudzu can fuck the station up but why not just change Kudzu if it's the sole problem.

Lets get real here, it was nerfed because the people who could don't play it and got dunked. The reason it was nerfed was already explained in the above salt post.

There was a changelog. The problem is that the server didn't generate a changelog when it was updated yesterday, thus causing this confusion.

Hydro is getting the nerf bat treatment.
Enjoy having completely useless plants and not being able to do anything.

Looks like fried chicken nuggets are here to stay.

I find it stunning that all this stuff is still a net buff from how botany was at this point last year (when botany was still considered very strong) and people still have the audacity to say that botany is being nerfed into uselessness

Shaps-cloud wrote:I find it stunning that all this stuff is still a net buff from how botany was at this point last year (when botany was still considered very strong) and people still have the audacity to say that botany is being nerfed into uselessness

I heard liquid contents used to inject people with the chemicals. It sure doesn't any more but maybe that's why people like you still whine about it. Your post is still worthless because you gave zero examples.

ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

kevinz000 wrote:ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

SOH, SOH, I WUZ WORKIN ON MAH MELON PLAN' DAT HAS ACID N' EXPLOSIS N' SHIT BUH DEN IH ONLEH MADE FOUR EXPLOSIS MELONS. WTF

kevinz000 wrote:ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

It was nerfed on a false premise.

Lazengann wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

It was nerfed on a false premise.

It nerfed how many plants you can get and this the best nerf it could get, instead of crippling potency or the actual power of the plants itself

Armhulen wrote:

Lazengann wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

It was nerfed on a false premise.

It nerfed how many plants you can get and this the best nerf it could get, instead of crippling potency or the actual power of the plants itself

That's great now explain why it needed a nerf in the first place using specific examples.

Lazengann wrote:

Armhulen wrote:

Lazengann wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

It was nerfed on a false premise.

It nerfed how many plants you can get and this the best nerf it could get, instead of crippling potency or the actual power of the plants itself

That's great now explain why it needed a nerf in the first place using specific examples.

LOL

Okay, but i'll bite. The problem is not that they can make explosive acidic plants, it's that they can make a lot of them. Like, twelve per harvest a lot. If xenobio could get 12 extracts per killed slime, would you nerf all of his slime powers? Botany is stronger than xenobio because it can make strong plants faster, AND it was harvesting more than xenobio.

Lazengann wrote:

Armhulen wrote:

Lazengann wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:ITT botany powergamer mad their crutch got a slight nerf.

It was nerfed on a false premise.

It nerfed how many plants you can get and this the best nerf it could get, instead of crippling potency or the actual power of the plants itself

That's great now explain why it needed a nerf in the first place using specific examples.

Oh hey, its this thready again.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=10023

cedarbridge wrote:Oh hey, its this thready again.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=10023

I haven't personally tried all of those but let me comment on the ones I have

Kevinz wrote:I think botany is quickly approaching the point of being unmanageably overpowered and unstoppable short of torching the entire department with a bomb thrower.
I'm talking about blue space banana peels that teleport you and stun you for a quarter of a minute being made in the hundreds

You can only eat like one max potency banana before you're too full to eat another. If you have some kind of dedicated team of people doing nothing but eating weed and bananas then this is a valid complaint.

I'm talking about killer tomatoes easily taking out the entire station when botany knows how to counter it with podman (this always existed but it's worse when done now)

This is true, but you can't do it solo because someone has to pluck your replica pod.

I'm talking about plants that inject enough toxins into you on hit that you will die if you didn't bring an antitoxin kit with you wherever you go

Takes multiple throws and can be thrown back by the target.

Melons with enough acid to two hit you and melt all of your gear

Yeah they'll melt your shit if you don't walk to a shower but they don't hurt much. No way in hell they'll two hit you.

And the latest discovery, tomatoes that make an explosion large enough to instacrit on hit and breaches the room.

no

I'll go experiment with the smoke and mutagen plants later.

Can you elaborate on why you said no to that last one? I thought it was pretty well documented

Wyzack wrote:Can you elaborate on why you said no to that last one? I thought it was pretty well documented

Actually after taking a harder look at things I might be completely wrong, I thought it was just referring to the potassium explosions. My bad.

Eh, I suggested this change more than once, if anything it means botany needs to bug RnD more. although production speed 9 base is REALLY shitty, 5 would be a better default.

Now, just get rid of ambrosia gaia auto-care and it will make botany raid RnD for parts more often.

The truth is I don't like botany anymore, ever since bob dobbington was rude to me so you can expect a few more nerfs in it's future.

I'm gonna make it more of a joke than security.

oranges wrote:The truth is I don't like botany anymore, ever since bob dobbington was rude to me so you can expect a few more nerfs in it's future.

I'm gonna make it more of a joke than security.

<3

The nerf to lock stats behind parts is quite grevious to me. To nerf the entirety of botany to actually nerf a few plants? Poor way to handle the situation and shows inability to compromise.

Just reduce the overall amounts of that chemical from said plant. Instead of 10 produce make 100u make it 40 plants.

who else remembers pre gene machine botany
>10000 dirt piles in front of the bridge all with deathnettles and weed

oranges wrote:The truth is I don't like botany anymore, ever since bob dobbington was rude to me so you can expect a few more nerfs in it's future.

I'm gonna make it more of a joke than security.

Where's the lie?

If I main toxins for a bit and then verbally molest you can you nerf that for me as well?

oranges wrote: I'm gonna make it more of a joke than security.

You have a hard task ahead of you but I wish you luck in it. Perhaps you can make security less of a joke by buffing it

oranges wrote:The truth is I don't like botany anymore, ever since bob dobbington was rude to me so you can expect a few more nerfs in it's future.

I'm gonna make it more of a joke than security.

wtf i like oranges now???

Reece wrote:

oranges wrote:The truth is I don't like botany anymore, ever since bob dobbington was rude to me so you can expect a few more nerfs in it's future.

I'm gonna make it more of a joke than security.

Where's the lie?

If I main toxins for a bit and then verbally molest you can you nerf that for me as well?

yes

Reece wrote:Lets get real here, it was nerfed because the people who could don't play it and got dunked. The reason it was nerfed was already explained in the above salt post.

As the person who nerfed it, and someone who has previously played botany almost exclusively, I think you're wrong.


Or maybe you're correct, which means that if people were getting dunked enough to call for a nerf it was probably more than just for "gimmicks" [although I can't honestly fathom what gimmick requires 100 potency, 10 yield, 1 production speed plants except banana grieffing which has been done a thousand times already].

What was not touched was the amount of genes you could put in a seed, and anyone worth their salt [see: actual botany players] would just make a mutagen surrogate instead. This was left on purpose.

Dr_bee wrote:Eh, I suggested this change more than once, if anything it means botany needs to bug RnD more. although production speed 9 base is REALLY shitty, 5 would be a better default.

Now, just get rid of ambrosia gaia auto-care and it will make botany raid RnD for parts more often.

It's almost like the values are equivalent to how much work is required to pickup plants that start with production one and give that ability to every future plant you produce.

ITT: People who don't play botany nerf everything botany can do beyond fast griefing because of the 1/30 rounds where botany is relevant. It took me well until the shuttle got to the station on most rounds to harvest my really good healing apples, and now most rounds I won't even be able to get them made. It probably would've taken me 30 ish minutes to make round ending kudzu before, and now it will take me 25 ish. Also ITT: people who don't play botany as anything other than LMAO WEED don't know what the fuck maturation means.

Kevinz nerfs made sense: nerf the stuff that's hard to detect like exploding plants, make people work for their grief. This is just a blanket "let's make botany awful for everybody but the most dedicated griefers as fast as we can without input from actual botanists"

LifeReign wrote:This is just a blanket "let's make botany awful for everybody but the most dedicated griefers as fast as we can without input from actual botanists"

I'm always a fan of shitting on coders, but friendo, this is the second thread on the subject. Both threads are running concurrently. "No input" is an outright lie of a meme.

cedarbridge wrote:

LifeReign wrote:This is just a blanket "let's make botany awful for everybody but the most dedicated griefers as fast as we can without input from actual botanists"

I'm always a fan of shitting on coders, but friendo, this is the second thread on the subject. Both threads are running concurrently. "No input" is an outright lie of a meme.

The input was "No don't do this, it'll make life way worse for non-griefing botanists than it does for helpful botanists. Also, your numbers are awful." Still gets merged quickly. The only reasonable nerf has been kevinz' blacklist, but that one was shot down by Joan who merged this one in.

You seem upset

oranges wrote:You seem upset

Just an accumulation of every botany round where the shuttle gets called before I can finish my nice healing stuff so I can't even distribute it to the crew. I usually don't use botany to cause harm to the station, and the changes hurt my ability to do construction/decoration/medicine stuff more than it does my ability to hurt people. Also a bit annoyed that the numbers I calculate often get ignored by coders.

I'll probably work off the frustration by coming up with some positive things for botany to make for the crew, but the numbers, especially production, needs to be looked at.

If you're this frustrated about it then look at it from the point of view of people who don't play botany

Most rounds they don't distribute anything useful to the crew, quite a few rounds they end up releasing killer tomatoes or bluespace fruits or something

The appearance that botany needs a nerf is there, even if it's not true - maybe the easily abused items are the ones that should be nerfed?

I can understand your frustration but if you play botany as described you're kinda in the minority, and the cries for a botany nerf are because it's fucking annoying that WHOOPS MAX POTENCY STACKS OF KILLER TOMATOES AGAIN HAHA

I'm legitimately amazed people can't stop using the "people who don't play botany" argument when I have literally played botany... near-exclusively at times.

The reliance on such an awful crutch is why it needed to be nerfed, and this thread has only reinforced the point.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'm legitimately amazed people can't stop using the "people who don't play botany" argument when I have literally played botany... near-exclusively at times.

The reliance on such an awful crutch is why it needed to be nerfed, and this thread has only reinforced the point.

Apparently you spent the time ERPing instead of experimenting because as the OP shows you're retarded and don't know shit I hate you so much Cobblestone

That being said I just tried mutagen smoke tomatos and yeah they're pretty strong.

Lazengann wrote:Apparently you spent the time ERPing instead of experimenting because as the OP shows you're retarded and don't know shit I hate you so much Cobblestone

[youtube]3KquFZYi6L0[/youtube]

Qbopper wrote:If you're this frustrated about it then look at it from the point of view of people who don't play botany

Most rounds they don't distribute anything useful to the crew, quite a few rounds they end up releasing killer tomatoes or bluespace fruits or something

The appearance that botany needs a nerf is there, even if it's not true - maybe the easily abused items are the ones that should be nerfed?

I can understand your frustration but if you play botany as described you're kinda in the minority, and the cries for a botany nerf are because it's fucking annoying that WHOOPS MAX POTENCY STACKS OF KILLER TOMATOES AGAIN HAHA

This. Every other department does something useful for the crew or will likely do so as part of their routine. Botany shits up the halls with mushrooms and then validhunts with grenade tomatoes.

ITT: People who don't make cool things in botany and aren't particularly good at it complain about the few griefing botanists.

I just pointed out that these nerfs only touch my ability to make medicine and do construction. It does nothing to my ability to ruin the station through botany. The dna manipulator wasn't a crutch, it was a time-saver that let me actually do things in an average round instead of STATION SHAT ITSELF, RED ALERT SHUTTLE CALL, BOTANY TIME IS OVER. Again: these changes don't affect the murder stuff much, just the helpful stuff that requires serious work.

Also, the mushrooms are just because Joan decided to make them eye-rape green. Joan also put in shadowshrooms. Joan also merged the nerf. Seriously, nobody spread glowshrooms until after the lighting changes, and only because it was THE NEW THING HURR. Plus, every station format has a glowshroom cluster hidden on station, so half the time it isn't even botany that does it.

I mean, Cobby, I had to point out to you that you didn't understand weed growth, so I'd really like to know what you actually do in botany because I don't think I've ever seen you play. I try to make healing apples every round that are basically 100u pills filled with medicine that will make you run sanic fast and let you traverse space for about a minute. I can barely get them ready by the time the shuttle docks in most rounds, and even then most people don't even bother picking one up even though it could save their life.

The DNA Manipulator was a nice bonus but came to be a crutch to bad botanists who don't know how to survive without it. Back in my day, getting Yield 10 Potency 100 was all up to the will of RNG, and you had to do shit by hand.

Nerfing the DNA Manipulator is fair IMO.

LifeReign wrote:ITT: LifeReign strawmans every argument he can while declaring to be the only one who ever plays botany.

ftfy

The assblast is palpable

LifeReign,

1. The "It only hurts muh medicine" argument means nothing. Being "Too" powerful can be on either spectrum, whether it's healing or damaging. It's why the healing wand and medical gun are locked behind antagonist gates with very little ways to obtain them ingame otherwise. With that said, I'm baffled by how you think that it has a benefit in plant production [because what I touched is the same throughout each plant]... but only for "good" plants. Just help me understand that. If you know a bypass around this, good. That's the point, to make you use the bypass that takes a bit more of time and RNG. That's all I wanted from this nerf and glad to see that it's working as I intended.

2. I never made this claim so i'm not going to go over it. Whoever made them colored lights are awful and turned a very utility-based item into a valid card tbh.

3. [proves the powergaming levels of botany] lol. I've made just about everything botany has to offer aside from kudzu, which is where weed rate and weed chance are the most important. Like I said, I never touched weed chance or weed rate ingame because they didn't really /do/ anything that was noticeably advantageous for me. Also I haven't recently played the role, but I have played on several occasions on both sybil and basil under a name that isn't Lola Cobblestone [usually <Plant> Holmes]. Even then, it doesn't matter what I do, you should stick to speaking in terms of the nerf instead of trying to discredit the author based on whether they have "played" the role.

Lazengann wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'm legitimately amazed people can't stop using the "people who don't play botany" argument when I have literally played botany... near-exclusively at times.

The reliance on such an awful crutch is why it needed to be nerfed, and this thread has only reinforced the point.

Apparently you spent the time ERPing instead of experimenting because as the OP shows you're retarded and don't know shit I hate you so much Cobblestone

That being said I just tried mutagen smoke tomatos and yeah they're pretty strong.

I can't imagine anyone unjokingly being this upset over a machine on a 2d atmos sim. very sad.

1. The "It only hurts muh medicine" argument means nothing. Being "Too" powerful can be on either spectrum, whether it's healing or damaging. It's why the healing wand and medical gun are locked behind antagonist gates with very little ways to obtain them ingame otherwise.

Healing chems that can overdose you are not too powerful, and killing people is inherently easier than saving them. Not a problem though, just pointing out that medicine isn't very strong.

With that said, I'm baffled by how you think that it has a benefit in plant production [because what I touched is the same throughout each plant]... but only for "good" plants. Just help me understand that.

It doesn't only help "good" plants, I don't think I've ever brought that up. But "good" plants are usually needed in greater quantities and variety than "bad" plants, which you usually only need one type and one bag's worth if even that, so "good" plants are hit harder.

If you know a bypass around this, good. That's the point, to make you use the bypass that takes a bit more of time and RNG. That's all I wanted from this nerf and glad to see that it's working as I intended.

I actually brought up that this makes strong kudzu faster with less time and less RNG. Still no response to this. It's not working as intended, the bypasses don't actualy take more time and RNG, they take less. There's no such bypass for medicine.


Mushrooms are because qhopper brought them up.

3. [proves the powergaming levels of botany] lol. I've made just about everything botany has to offer aside from kudzu, which is where weed rate and weed chance are the most important.

Those don't actually matter too much for kudzu production, but the high values you gave them actually makes it easier to get kudzu, now that I think about it.

Even then, it doesn't matter what I do, you should stick to speaking in terms of the nerf instead of trying to discredit the author based on whether they have "played" the role.

I'm pretty sure this is the first time you've actually addressed my points, so I was getting irate, especially since it seemed like you've ignored everything except my point about how you got weed growth wrong. I apologize, a lot of the people who clamor for nerfs don't even know how botany works, and your changes seemed quite nonsensical so I assumed more of the same from you, my bad.



Now that you're here, I can discard the peanut gallery for some actual discussion. Can you explain why all the numbers you put in are worse than almost every starting plant? It seems a little strange to have a machine that worsens your stats if you try to use it on most plants. I still feel the half-way point is a better start so that you can use the base machine to make bad plants tolerable while the upgrades make the machine good. The half-way point would also mean that station-destroying kudzu can't be made as fast.

"Now that you're here, I can discard the peanut gallery for some actual discussion. Can you explain why all the numbers you put in are worse than almost every starting plant? It seems a little strange to have a machine that worsens your stats if you try to use it on most plants. I still feel the half-way point is a better start so that you can use the base machine to make bad plants tolerable while the upgrades make the machine good. The half-way point would also mean that station-destroying kudzu can't be made as fast."

The point of the gene machine on T1 is to be a "my plant sucks how can I just get it to the point where it does not suck anymore" [meaning you have like 0 potency, 1 yield, 10 produc, etc.]. It is not meant to make default plants better, it is to salvage mutagen plants.

With that said, some plants having better stats in one area over others in not an argument in why the gene machine should be able to give these good stats to every other plant roundstart.

___________________________________________

1. You're not understanding. I should not be able to churn out chems faster and better than the dedicated medical staff on the station without doing a lot of work.

2. was in reference to "I just pointed out that these nerfs only touch my ability to make medicine". I am not being appealed to this motion that the society of herbalists are now shattered because they can't churn out Salbu Bicard Omni Kelo Earthblood apples with little effort.

3. Kudzu has always been a pain so making it "moreso" is just *shrug*. If people start spamming that and get that nerfed too It doesn't bother me, I dislike those kinds of items and I never use them.

4. These were fixed in an undocumented hotfix after you brought them up, so a non-issue.

5. When the conversation is initiated with "Do you even play botany" It's clear that these people are unwavering and have already got it in their minds that I somehow don't play enough botany to understand the "intricate system" of the gene machine and how nerfing it does so many bad things upon the game. There's no point in actually holding a discussion with them until they calm down because their undergoing feature withdrawal.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:With that said, I'm baffled by how you think that it has a benefit in plant production [because what I touched is the same throughout each plant]... but only for "good" plants. Just help me understand that.

Healing plants need to be produced in number so everybody can have one. If I'm throwing mutagen smoke tomatos at you it doesn't really matter if I only have 5 instead of 15.