/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:53 pm**

Toxins is probably the only department that is almost only used by antagonists. The issue i wanted to bring up is that you can't stop a toxin bombing without metagaming or a lucky random search, because:

Preventing people from starting toxins or getting TTVs is metagaming, since it would imply you know that toxins is pretty much only used by antags.
Restricting TTVs limits the damage but you only really need one to deal shuttle-level chaos, especially if you break hard-to-replace machinery.
Preventing people from leaving with a TTV from the lab implies that someone is watching both the entrance and the maint 24/7, which isn't realistic.

At this point our traitor toxin scientist has a bomb in his bag, is outside science, and at any time might drop his bomb and signal it for a maxcap explosion. At no point before this he was valid enough to stop. The only window to stop a toxin bomb traitor is to random search him, if someone bothered to notice his absence from the lab, or hope he's incompetent enough to get his bomb spotted before it is activated.

To prevent this i'd elevate the restriction level on bombs to something that must be approved from the RD before starting. I'd compare it to a dangerous engineering project or adding a law to an AI: entirely possible, but you have to get the Head's permission, or you're doing it clandestinely and can be stopped without repercussion if you're found out.

Before you go "I ded", i haven't logged on for about a week now, it's just something that has been bugging me for a while

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:03 pm**

XDTM wrote:Toxins is probably the only department that is almost only used by antagonists. The issue i wanted to bring up is that you can't stop a toxin bombing without metagaming or a lucky random search, because:

Preventing people from starting toxins or getting TTVs is metagaming, since it would imply you know that toxins is pretty much only used by antags.

Restricting TTVs limits the damage but you only really need one to deal shuttle-level chaos, especially if you break hard-to-replace machinery.

Preventing people from leaving with a TTV from the lab implies that someone is watching both the entrance and the maint 24/7, which isn't realistic.
At this point our traitor toxin scientist has a bomb in his bag, is outside science, and at any time might drop his bomb and signal it for a maxcap explosion. At no point before this he was valid enough to stop. The only window to stop a toxin bomb traitor is to random search him, if someone bothered to notice his absence from the lab, or hope he's incompetent enough to get his bomb spotted before it is activated.

To prevent this i'd elevate the restriction level on bombs to something that must be approved from the RD before starting. I'd compare it to a dangerous engineering project or adding a law to an AI: entirely possible, but you have to get the Head's permission, or you're doing it clandestinely and can be stopped without repercussion if you're found out.

Before you go "I ded", i haven't logged on for about a week now, it's just something that has been bugging me for a while

"Hey RD, can I get toxins?"
"No you'll just bomb the station."

Just act like you're making them for/taking them to mining.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:14 pm**

Toxins is terrible yes. What else?

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:38 pm**

This thread is correct but fuck it just nerf botany again

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:40 pm**

Lazengann wrote:This thread is correct but fuck it just nerf botany again

Ahahahahahahahahah

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:55 pm**

Toxins should be made useful for mining, there were suggestions in the past but none were implemented.

One of them was having treasure coves that required explosives to get in.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:01 am**

CPTANT wrote:Toxins should be made useful for mining

I've seen toxins bombs turn eighths of Lavaland into blighted orefields filled with dazed, injured monsters, ripe for the harvesting. They really can be useful.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:21 am**

AnonymousNow wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Toxins should be made useful for mining
I've seen toxins bombs turn eighths of Lavaland into blighted orefields filled with dazed, injured monsters, ripe for the harvesting. They really can be useful.

They also lag the everliving fuck out of the server.

In any case, this isn't really a coding issue. Its a policy question and should probably be moved.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:29 am**

The problem is that there really isn't a legitimate use for bombs in their current state. Miners can use them, but how often does that really happen?

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:39 am**

Toxins bombs exist pretextually as a means of producing mining charges for blast mining. This is pretextual because, as the OP says, the real reason is to bomb the station or bomb co-op antags like newcops or blob.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:00 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Toxins should be made useful for mining
I've seen toxins bombs turn eighths of Lavaland into blighted orefields filled with dazed, injured monsters, ripe for the harvesting. They really can be useful.
They also lag the everliving fuck out of the server.

In any case, this isn't really a coding issue. Its a policy question and should probably be moved.

No they don't, bomb lag is completely acceptable since they were reworked.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:21 am**

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Toxins should be made useful for mining
I've seen toxins bombs turn eighths of Lavaland into blighted orefields filled with dazed, injured monsters, ripe for the harvesting. They really can be useful.
They also lag the everliving fuck out of the server.

In any case, this isn't really a coding issue. Its a policy question and should probably be moved.
No they don't, bomb lag is completely acceptable since they were reworked.

Are you sure? I seem to remember a pretty solid lavaland carpet bombing about a week or so ago. When was the rework you're talking about done?

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:47 am**

How badly lavaland bombs lag depends on strength, station-side factors, population and just random chance, from what I've noticed.

As for Antags bombing stuff, maybe make standard TTVs useable only on other zlevels or during red alert, and give traitor sci roles an option to purchase an obviously syndicate one for 10 TC or so.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:53 pm**

What I think of this thread is the same as how I feel about the attempts to time lock / remove syndicate bombs. I do not support the removal / restrictions of WMD. I know that this contradicts the idea of having longer rounds, but I rather like the rush of "BOMB IN SEC" or "EXPLOSIONS IN MEDBAY", my favorite being "GOOSE IS LOOSE". It is how I prefer to die, as opposed to being silently beaten to death with a fire extinguisher and spaced.

Maybe I just like seeing large-scale hazards that affect several players at once.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:26 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Toxins should be made useful for mining
I've seen toxins bombs turn eighths of Lavaland into blighted orefields filled with dazed, injured monsters, ripe for the harvesting. They really can be useful.
They also lag the everliving fuck out of the server.

In any case, this isn't really a coding issue. Its a policy question and should probably be moved.

They only lag the everlivign fuck out of the server if you detonate 6 of them at the same time

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:04 pm**

Gun Hog wrote:What I think of this thread is the same as how I feel about the attempts to time lock / remove syndicate bombs. I do not support the removal / restrictions of WMD. I know that this contradicts the idea of having longer rounds, but I rather like the rush of "BOMB IN SEC" or "EXPLOSIONS IN MEDBAY", my favorite being "GOOSE IS LOOSE". It is how I prefer to die, as opposed to being silently beaten to death with a fire extinguisher and spaced.

Maybe I just like seeing large-scale hazards that affect several players at once.

I'm not necessarily against that, but currently it's pretty much unpreventable without metagaming. (which incidentally was also my issue with the singulo)

Also the excitement is greater if it's done more rarely, and knowing that the bomber had to make an effort makes it much less frustrating.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:23 pm**

Gun Hog wrote:What I think of this thread is the same as how I feel about the attempts to time lock / remove syndicate bombs. I do not support the removal / restrictions of WMD. I know that this contradicts the idea of having longer rounds, but I rather like the rush of "BOMB IN SEC" or "EXPLOSIONS IN MEDBAY", my favorite being "GOOSE IS LOOSE". It is how I prefer to die, as opposed to being silently beaten to death with a fire extinguisher and spaced.

Maybe I just like seeing large-scale hazards that affect several players at once.

WMDs are ok [for me, at least].

WMDs you can get basically roundstart with little effort are not [See: Turning on PA and wow singulo, doing the Yackem bomb guide and wow several MaxCaps, pressing a button and wow you now have a bomb].

To prevent this i'd elevate the restriction level on bombs to something that must be approved from the RD before starting. I'd compare it to a dangerous engineering project or adding a law to an AI: entirely possible, but you have to get the Head's permission, or you're doing it clandestinely and can be stopped without repercussion if you're found out.

This isn't a code solution silly!

Lazengann wrote:This thread is correct but fuck it just nerf botany again

I know this is a shitpost but if you look at the botany thread you can see my grievances with science [since OP is a known science player].

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:49 pm**

Bombs actually have a purpose now that maxcap is lifted on mining and NOW is the time you decide that toxins needs an overhaul?

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:54 pm**

I knew this was coming as soon as the conversation was forced with syndie bombs being too low effort. You lot are like clockwork in whining about things.

Bombs are fine. Bombings aren't even especially common. Antagonists are supposed to be dangerous and heavily impactful to the round, and you don't get much more impactful than your department getting blown up.

Stop crying about antags, it's getting old.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:19 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:I knew this was coming as soon as the conversation was forced with syndie bombs being too low effort. You lot are like clockwork in whining about things.

Bombs are fine. Bombings aren't even especially common. Antagonists are supposed to be dangerous and heavily impactful to the round, and you don't get much more impactful than your department getting blown up.

Stop crying about antags, it's getting old.

stop setting up strawman arguments any time anyone posts a thread where anything remotely critical of how antags work atm is said, it's getting old

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:43 pm**

I'm hardly saying to remove bombs, just to make bombmaking valid if there's no explicit permission from above, like when i build an AI upload by myself to give the AI meme laws - maybe nobody cares, maybe sec is going to throw me into the gulag, but if the RD agrees i'm safe. (Yeah i should have put this into policy)

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:50 am**

XDTM wrote:valid

filed the entire post under "shit" right here tbqh

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:46 am**

Fwoosh actually had a pretty good idea as to how we can legitimize toxins: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10291

Toxins needs to be able to produce legitimate items. Imagine if they could make thermal bombs to rapidly heat up a room that was exposed to space for an extended period of time, cryo bombs to rapidly extinguish fires, etc. The department would be useful to non-antags, and even antags would have a lot more options in their fuckery.

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:47 am**

FWOOSH IS LAUGHING AT YOU ALL NOW

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:05 am**

I agree with Luke, actual helpful feaures would make it a legit department.

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:17 pm**

I think the syndi bombs should be removed personally, it takes all the robustness out of making bombs.

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:02 pm**

oranges wrote:I think the syndi bombs should be removed personally, it takes all the robustness out of making bombs.

wtf i like oranges now???

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:30 pm**

I like bombs. More fun than desword murderbone.

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:37 pm**

Doctor Pork wrote:I like bombs. More fun than desword murderbone.

Its not really a question of "yes bombs" or "no bombs." The primary complaint in this thread (and a valid one) is "please no more roundstart everything explodes mash dat fuckkin like shuttle call buttan"

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:04 am**

Remove bombcap but make bombs a large (like a canister) item

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:36 am**

I actually wouldn't mind bombs at all really if the game didn't make you wait to call the shuttle with no exceptions [such as bombs!].

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:39 am**

If toxins bombs took 15-20 minutes to cook rather than 5 that would be nice

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:26 am**

We already have toxin bomb solutions to this. Just make toxin's bombs more interesting rather than flat out explosive bombs so that we can use them against a variety of antagonists like blobs for instance. Suggestion:Toxins rehaul with liquid gas

- For blobs with chemical resistances, raw explosive blasts wont do anything so create a bomb that spits out large amounts of reagents to counteract.

But yes, personally as RD i demand constant reports on allocated/working toxins scientists and shut down the room via APC if it's being violated to further use or there are bombing incidents on the space station (false flags like syndie bombs also mean that toxins is shut off) but the toxins bomb range only has a limited lifespan and im not sure if anybody actually knows how to apply it.

Meta-knowledge of plasma mixes also kind of bottlenecked the learning aspect of toxins too, since once you have the maxcap or a potent mix you don't need anything else and its just a manufacturing outpost. No experimentation (which my toxins rework suggestion hopes to address with different applications for gas chemistry that can be canistered up as well as used by valve bombs)

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:36 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
Doctor Pork wrote:I like bombs. More fun than desword murderbone.
Its not really a question of "yes bombs" or "no bombs." The primary complaint in this thread (and a valid one) is "please no more roundstart everything explodes mash dat fuckkin like shuttle call buttan"

While i also agree on that, my point here was that toxin bombings are currently just not preventable policy-wise.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:59 am**

Or actively IC wise with scientists who want to do it have to be physically restrained or demoted from office.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:53 pm**

XDTM wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Doctor Pork wrote:I like bombs. More fun than desword murderbone.
Its not really a question of "yes bombs" or "no bombs." The primary complaint in this thread (and a valid one) is "please no more roundstart everything explodes mash dat fuckkin like shuttle call buttan"
While i also agree on that, my point here was that toxin bombings are currently just not preventable policy-wise.

This gets worse with health sensor bombs. Now, even if you catch the bomber before everything explodes, there's a good chance the asshole rigged all of his bombs to a deadman switch and the station explodes when you stop him.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:57 pm**

But that's a legitimate function of signallers, also they can be caught alive and disarmed of their health sensor that needs to be on their person.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:55 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:But that's a legitimate function of signallers, also they can be caught alive and disarmed of their health sensor that needs to be on their person.

That's why you keep a voice sensor trigger too

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:00 pm**

What if process of crafting toxin bombs was randomized to make it actually about experimenting and not following pastebin to the letter?

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:14 pm**

Toxins needs to do something else, bombs aren't enough to be worth a department. And i don't mean more colourful or different bombs, i mean something that gives the department a reason to be called toxins, since it could easily be pyrotechnics right now. Maybe gas-produced and/or plasma-based mutative toxins which grant powerful benefits but also powerful drawbacks, temporary or permanent.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:40 pm**

*POINTS AGGRESSIVELY AT IDEA THREAD ---> RE: Toxins rehaul with liquid gas<----

No more genetics memes, thats just faux jokeresque dunk in chems to be crazy as your superpower esque stuff you''re suggesting XDTM

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:48 pm**

XDTM wrote:And i don't mean more colourful or different bombs

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:57 pm**

Toxin's is supposed to be science's plasma research sector right?

Maybe have it change plasma gas into different form with different effects, a concentrated plasma that burns hotter but for shorter periods, a energized plasma that powers everything around it, a hydrated plasma that coats everything in plasma reagent.

expand what plasma can do, make toxins about exploring those new transformations.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:12 pm**

XDTM wrote:Toxins needs to do something else, bombs aren't enough to be worth a department. And i don't mean more colourful or different bombs, i mean something that gives the department a reason to be called toxins, since it could easily be pyrotechnics right now. Maybe gas-produced and/or plasma-based mutative toxins which grant powerful benefits but also powerful drawbacks, temporary or permanent.

Bring back the tank of BZ and Freon!

And Agent B and Volatile Fuel while we're at it because I'm still not sure what those do.

I might just miss getting to make freon/plasma/flame throwers.

Posted: **Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:01 pm**

Nabski wrote: Agent B

Hot Co2 -> o2

Nabski wrote: Volatile Fuel

it make fire good.
fire git guder.
big flame.

yeah that's literally it they're one use-case gases that just makes fires burn with more energy (more energy is more heat for fires)/ turn co2 into o2

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:08 am**

bring back fusion so we can make fusion bombs

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:58 pm**

OH MY GOD KNAIVES IS ALAIVES

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:06 pm**

confused rock wrote:
Knaive wrote:bring back fusion so we can make fusion bombs
OH MY GOD KNAIVES IS ALAIVES

Spoiler:

But yeah, unless Toxins is reworked, its virtually never used on any other round without antagonistic intent, and the distance & clearance to carry bombs all the way to mining to put in the hands of fallible miners who already have overpowered content.
Thankfully i have a solution to deliver toxins products to mining without actually having to hand them over

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:30 pm**

Knaive wrote:bring back fusion so we can make fusion bombs

Make fusion possible only within a special environment so that you need to build a burn chamber setup to trigger it.
Then add an ops-only traitor item that acts as portable fusion containment unit.
Build-your-own nuke.

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:46 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
confused rock wrote:
Knaive wrote:bring back fusion so we can make fusion bombs
OH MY GOD KNAIVES IS ALAIVES

Spoiler:

But yeah, unless Toxins is reworked, its virtually never used on any other round without antagonistic intent, and the distance & clearance to carry bombs all the way to mining to put in the hands of fallible miners who already have overpowered content.
Thankfully i have a solution to deliver toxins products to mining without actually having to hand them over

Miners using bombs antagonistically does not fall under the issue i pointed out, because if you don't want to risk miners bombing stuff, all you have to do is not make bombs. The issue, again, is that if someone feels like making a bomb to bring to security, nobody can really say no until it's too late to detect and stop, or they'll be labelled a metagamer.

/tg/Station 13

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