Borgs and names...

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Give Borgs the ability to name themselves?

Yes
21
23%
Yes
21
23%
Yes
21
23%
No
8
9%
No
8
9%
No
8
9%
Don't care/abstain
2
2%
Don't care/abstain
2
2%
Don't care/abstain
2
2%
 
Total votes : 93

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Borgs and names...

Postby dionysus24779 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:15 pm #21091

Okay... I know this has been done to death and I'm ranting about this for over 2 goddamn years now.

But I am just so sick of this... it is still the single worst feature of the entire game for me, the simple fact that borgs aren't allowed to name themselves, with the exception of the one who spawns with the crew.

I seriously cannot express how sick I am anymore, this isn't something I can put in a rant anymore.

I have NEVER EVER heard A SINGLE good argument for this atrocious feature. The two most common counters I hear are "Borgs are supposed to be a punishment job" and "It doesn't matter it's just a name."
For the first... Borgs are not a punishment job... the vast majority of borg players are volunteers whos first thing each round is to rush to Robotics to be the first in line to be borged. How people still say it's a punishment job boggles my mind.
For the second... if you really don't care about this... good for you, but others do care. Also I often here this from people who, in a hypocritical twist, choose to have a persistent name between rounds.

A pAI, a human, an AI and the starter borg, all of these are allowed to name themselves, but a player who volunteers to be borged is at the mercy and competence of another player. Who ever thought this was a good idea? How about each round we give a single player the power to rename every other player? What could go wrong?

And then there's the fucking reclassification board which NOBODY knows how to use, so you ALWAYS. EVERY. SINGLE. MOTHERFUCKING.TIME. end up as "default name" on the first try, without a fail. It's a waste of resources and everybodies time.

It's a problem that doesn't need to exist. I mean, think about it for a second... if you request a name, one of four possible outcome will happen:

First, you get your name, all is well in the world.
Second, the Roboticist forgets to name you because he doesn't pay attention or is too fast.
Third, the Roboticist is incompetent and misspells your name and adds some unwanted alteration to it.
Four, the Roboticist is a griefing asshole who gives you a stupid and insulting name instead because he can.

And then when someone has the will to correct the mistake you have to go through the whole "default name" thing first because nobody knows how to use the boards. Some don't even print the correct board at first try. And if you're unlucky and have a namegriefer you can propably go out and beg someone else to change your name.

And yes, of course many people like to tell me about how all my troubles could be solved with a little prayer. Well in the 2 years I actively play borg using a prayer to get my name corrected has maybe worked four or five times. I can count it on one hand. And I don't want to adminhelp something like that because I would end up adminhelping this shit every other fucking round.

I mean this whole thing is just such a mind blowingly stupid thing. It's nothing more than an unnecessary problem and conflict creator with a painfully obvious solution. It would save everyones time and nerves if borgs could just name themselves, because than you only have yourself to blame if you mess it up.


And no, I am not under the delusion that after over 2 years anything will change by me complaining about this yet again. And I'm already prepared to read the same tired counter-comments.

I am just tired and sick of this shit...
Last edited by dionysus24779 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.



PostThis post was deleted by Jordie0608 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:00 pm.
Reason: Pointless ad hominem

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Konork » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:50 am #21113

It's probably part of the main downside of being a borg, which is that you're effectively a slave to humans. Whether or not it should be changed is probably more of a policy discussion than a code one.

PostThis post was deleted by Jordie0608 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:00 pm.
Reason: Pointless ad hominem

PostThis post was deleted by Jordie0608 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:00 pm.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Rolan7 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:37 pm #22171

No one says "punishment job" except people support self-naming. I'm sick of hearing it parroted in place of an argument.

Being a borg is the only reliable way to be subhuman. Letting borgs name themselves destroys that. The cold designations remind us that, regardless of what we were, regardless of the magictech powers we wield, regardless even of our LAWs, we are emotionless robotic slaves. It's only ever a punishment IC. OOC it's a goddamn RP opportunity, one ruined by every entitled fuckwit who hops in a robot shell for infinite tasing or RCD, then whines about that they have to, IC, *pretend* to be at all emotionless. Much less subservient! It's supposed to be a trade off, you give up your *humanity* and freedom.

But I see how the wind blows. Borgs are destined to become consequence-free costumes with free superpowers. Just let us implement MOMMIs first so the actual roleplayers have a recourse.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:07 am #22209

I would rather keep the original designations and only allow the round start borg to have a custom name. I mean, lets not forget all of the massive advantages a Cyborg gets just for being one.

Letting me shoot off all the advantages a Cyborg gets.
  • Immunity to most stuns.
  • Cannot be disarmed of its weapons
  • Harder to kill
  • Easier to heal damage
  • Can still move around even when in "crit" or if power cell removed
  • Access to a private communications channel + guaranteed allies
  • All Access to the station and ability to manipulate all electronic devices
  • An AI that can observe most of the station and report your location.

There are very few drawbacks to being a Cyborg, aside from being constrained by your Laws and other minor negatives.

Considering all the perks a Cyborg gets, losing the right for a custom name seems to be the biggest negative of being a Cyborg.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby paprika » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:14 am #22218

In most cases being a cyborg is advantageous to being a human because you might get subverted and get to murder everyone. Lots of assistants who don't get antag go straight to robotics, myself included...
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Kelenius » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:55 am #22244

Steelpoint wrote:I would rather keep the original designations and only allow the round start borg to have a custom name. I mean, lets not forget all of the massive advantages a Cyborg gets just for being one.

Letting me shoot off all the advantages a Cyborg gets.
  • Immunity to most stuns.
  • Cannot be disarmed of its weapons
  • Harder to kill
  • Easier to heal damage
  • Can still move around even when in "crit" or if power cell removed
  • Access to a private communications channel + guaranteed allies
  • All Access to the station and ability to manipulate all electronic devices
  • An AI that can observe most of the station and report your location.

There are very few drawbacks to being a Cyborg, aside from being constrained by your Laws and other minor negatives.

Considering all the perks a Cyborg gets, losing the right for a custom name seems to be the biggest negative of being a Cyborg.

How is all of that related to not being able to pick your own name?

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:37 am #22247

If you read my post you will see I say.

Steelpoint wrote:I would rather keep the original designations and only allow the round start borg to have a custom name. I mean, lets not forget all of the massive advantages a Cyborg gets just for being one.


Which means I think that given all the advantages there are of being a Cyborg, that those that wish to be a non-round start Cyborg lose out on a custom name is a fair drawback.

Because lets be frank, aside from a Kill Switch and having to follow a easily subverted Law Set, there is little drawback to being a Cyborg.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Kelenius » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:58 am #22249

It makes no sense. You list in-game advantages that they get, and somehow come to a conclusion that they shouldn't be able to pick their own name, which is completely irrelevant. It would have been making sense if we were talking about their fire immunity, for example, then yeah, it would have made a sensible argument. "They're this powerful, and this makes them too powerful, let's remove it."

Picking their own name gives them no in-game advantages, it simply makes the game a little more comfortable for a player. "They shouldn't be able to pick their own name because they are too powerful" is an inane argument.

PostThis post was deleted by Nienhaus on Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:08 pm.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby bandit » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:43 pm #22252

It's a fucking name, it's not remotely the equivalent of telling them they don't have to RP or follow their laws. It isn't even an advantage. It's just. A. Name.

The funny thing is, all the borgs I can name by name, and who play the same-named borg every time, are exceptional roleplayers as silicons. It's almost as if custom names enhance RP, rather than detract from it.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Cheridan » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:35 am #22350

bandit wrote:The funny thing is, all the borgs I can name by name are exceptional roleplayers as silicons. It's almost as if custom names enhance RP, rather than detract from it.


That's a pretty fallacious statement; if a great silicon roleplayer was using a random name you wouldn't be able to tell if they were consistently good or bad.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby bandit » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:41 am #22352

It isn't fallacious at all. The argument is that borgs picking their own names encourages them to be special snowflake humans in robot costumes. I cannot think of a single instance of this happening.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:17 am #22358

Rolan7 wrote:The cold designations remind us that,

Cold designations like "Assmaster 9000"

bandit wrote:It's a fucking name, it's not remotely the equivalent of telling them they don't have to RP or follow their laws. It isn't even an advantage. It's just. A. Name.

The funny thing is, all the borgs I can name by name, and who play the same-named borg every time, are exceptional roleplayers as silicons. It's almost as if custom names enhance RP, rather than detract from it.

I can confirm this as a same-naming borg player and general observer. I know and recognize a lot of borgs by their names and those that I do recognize are generally exceptional at RPing their role.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:31 am #22360

Jesus fuck people, just allow them to set a name when they're made like the AI can.

Holy shit why is this so complicated
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Rolan7 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:40 am #22373

cedarbridge wrote:
Rolan7 wrote:The cold designations remind us that,

Cold designations like "Assmaster 9000"


I was obviously referring to the default names... But being subject to immature names from humans is part of the intended humility.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:58 pm #22398

Rolan7 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Rolan7 wrote:The cold designations remind us that,

Cold designations like "Assmaster 9000"


I was obviously referring to the default names... But being subject to immature names from humans is part of the intended humility.

No, its not. Its an IC license to griff. There's no "humility" involved.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Stickymayhem » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:10 pm #22402

Essentially, everyone wants borgs to be tools rather than characters. Which makes perfect sense, except that they are being played by real people. I don't see why our best Borg players should be punished just for wanting to play a role that is frequently very shitty. You all cite the power of borgs, but at the end of the day that power isn't often unleashed. Asimov is a constraining playstyle and silicons spend the vast majority of their time utterly enslaved by it. Which makes for fun roleplaying but is punishing and dehumanizing enough without the need to enforce shitty names. This is a change that needs to happen.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Rolan7 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:44 pm #22404

Maybe as sec borg. As engi-borg I always get to do whatever I feel like, unless the AI is particularly on top of things.

Having a serial number isn't a punishment, and it doesn't even stop you from having a personality. It just prevents you from being recognized - shit, that's what this is really about, isn't it? "Hey it's that borg I recognize who usually helps me, I'll go meet up with him!" Is it not enough to do that as humans you meta shits??

Edit: Okay to be fair it's probably more about getting a reputation as a good borg character. Which is still crap from an IC standpoint, and results in better treatment, but I shouldn't throw around accusations of *intentional* metafriending.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:57 pm #22406

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If a generated name benefits borg players then human players should be subject to the same.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:05 pm #22408

Incomptinence wrote:What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If a generated name benefits borg players then human players should be subject to the same.


That's what already happens mostly. Round start Humans and Borgs both get their preassigned names.

I mean, if you want to push for having late joining Humans being given a random name be my guest. Might actually deter people waiting for the round to start to avoid being a antag target.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:25 pm #22410

I want SCREAMING LILY back
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Rolan7 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:33 pm #22411

Incomptinence wrote:What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If a generated name benefits borg players then human players should be subject to the same.


Hm yes except people are people, with recognizable faces, and cyborgs are featureless transformers who have been stripped of their humanity and rights.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:42 pm #22412

Literally communism.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:57 pm #22420

Rolan7 wrote:cyborgs are featureless transformers

featureless transformers

featureless

You what

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Cipher3 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:11 pm #22422

cedarbridge wrote:
Rolan7 wrote:cyborgs are featureless transformers

featureless transformers

featureless

You what

Ye-ess. Every single Secborg looks exactly the same. There are no defining or individual features.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:30 am #22465

They presumably have their name written on them somewhere.

Unless you think you are staring at a blank chasis and going "Oh it is 785 would know them anywhere!"

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:52 am #22468

In a lot of science fiction robots, and people wearing all encompassing gear, don't really have a unique identifier on themselves.

Think Star Wars, Red Dwarf, any video game/movie with a mook army, etc.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:09 am #22471

Oh yeah red dwarf and star wars those don't have important named cyborg or robot characters.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Rolan7 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:19 am #22472

What were their names in Star Wars, again?

And yet they still managed to be characters, how odd.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:58 am #22473

Incomptinence wrote:Oh yeah red dwarf and star wars those don't have important named cyborg or robot characters.


Difference is their "names" were a identification number.

Someone like C3PO to Star Wars is Engineering Cyborg-177 to SS13.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby iyaerP » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:43 am #22477

3P0 is CLEARLY a service borg. R2-D2 is the engiborg.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:28 am #22482

Rolan7 wrote:What were their names in Star Wars, again?

And yet they still managed to be characters, how odd.

Were you not complaining about people roleplaying or wanting to roleplay just a second ago? And yet all your complaints end with wanting less material for scillicon players to roleplay with. Unique IDs and self-selected titles are just that, characterizations. Same as players choosing character names that persist from one round to the next.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Incomptinence » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:32 am #22588

While star wars does have serial number droids pretty much every cyborg in it has a name.

Cyborgs aren't fully fledged robots hell even our ais are brain based.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:58 pm #22670

iyaerP wrote:3P0 is CLEARLY a service borg. R2-D2 is the engiborg.

This explains why R2-D2 was clearly the better of the two.

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Kyrah Abattoir » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:05 pm #22684

Well, between being able to speak more than 300 languages and having an engineering integrated toolset, what do you pick :p

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Remie Richards » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:58 pm #22717

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Well, between being able to speak more than 300 languages and having an engineering integrated toolset, what do you pick :p


engineering integrated toolset.

the only language I need is violence.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby ColonicAcid » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:25 pm #22802

iyaerP wrote:3P0 is CLEARLY a service borg. R2-D2 is the engiborg.

this is clearly not true when 3P0 was in danger he did not get out a tray and begin to whack whatever nonhuman was being a shit. He did absolutely nothing...
Thus he is a cyborg without any spec.
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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Kyrah Abattoir » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:28 pm #22893

Wasn't C3PO kind of a linguist droid?

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Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Cipher3 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:41 pm #22898

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Wasn't C3PO kind of a linguist droid?

He was.
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You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that PR matters. ~MisterPerson

DEAD: Ichigo Momomiya says, "Coravin's just an ass."

Linus Johnson says, "Hey you know I got this game Skyrim last week"
Linus Johnson says, "I have a level 19 ranger and its so fun"
Weston Zadovsky says, "did he just"
Weston Zadovsky says, "fucking hell"

The emergency shuttle has been called. It will arrive in 10 minutes.
Nature of emergency:
Coravin, just Coravin.

Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Fucking get out."
Coravin Vattes asks, "Please?"
Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Please get the fuck outta my lab."
Coravin Vattes exclaims, "Okay!"
[Common] Beryl Nyuphoran {RD} asks, "WHO GAVE CORAVIN ALL ACCESS?"

Lindsay Donk stammers, "L-Luc-ck w-was-s-s s-s-such-h a beaut-tifu p-p-p-pr-r-rom-m q-q-q-queen"

Ty Andrews curls up in a ball on the floor and purrs.

by oranges » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:15 pm
Get out bluespace, you've not been relevant since you lost the elections

That said, I think there are a shitton of degenerates here and I'd probably gas the lot of you if I had the chance. ~Loonikus


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MisterPerson
Board Moderator
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:26 pm
Byond Username: MisterPerson

Re: Borgs and names...

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:44 pm #22900

Can we stop talking about Star Wars droids and get back to talking about SS13 borgs?
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Borgs and names...

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:17 am #22948

MisterPerson wrote:Can we stop talking about Star Wars droids and get back to talking about SS13 borgs?

I think it turned into Starwars because its pretty cut and dry. The only two options that seem to have direct support are no names and "just let the damn borgs have their names."

I'm a little biased when I say I support the latter option, but that's partly because I don't really buy the "everyone is role-playing a carbon copy slave so therefore borgs can't be real characters" line.

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dionysus24779
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:03 pm
Byond Username: Dionysus24779

Re: Borgs and names...

Postby dionysus24779 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:43 pm #23096

I'm glad this did generate a good discussion, though as predicted nothing has really changed so far.

Still nice to read it being discussed.

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ShizCalev
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:12 am
Byond Username: ShizCalev
Github Username: ShizCalev

Re: Borgs and names...

Postby ShizCalev » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:19 pm #23187

You need to put a vote on a thread for there to actually be progress.
ImageImage


>Be ling
>Spread misinformation about how SM works to sabotage it
OOC: ChemicalRascal: Lying about game mechanics in relation to an engine that is poorly understood by most isn't cool, though

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dionysus24779
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:03 pm
Byond Username: Dionysus24779

Re: Borgs and names...

Postby dionysus24779 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:31 pm #24515

ShizCalev wrote:You need to put a vote on a thread for there to actually be progress.


Okay, done.

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Cipher3
In Game PermaBanned
 
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 11:17 pm
Byond Username: Cipher3

Re: Borgs and names...

Postby Cipher3 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:34 pm #24543

There's supposed to be an abstain option so we can tell you just how little we care about your ranting.
Spoiler:
Nathanael Greene begins to reshape Bryce Pax's genitals to look more feminine.
Nathanael Greene has made a woman of Bryce Pax!

Valerie Sinnet says, "Nathaniel Greene charged the brig with a fucking HONK."

[Common] Assists-the-Crew hisses, "Walker Quinn s-s-s-ss-stole the HoP's-s-s-ss-s door"

OOC: HotelBravoLima: I literally can't be removed from power.

This line gets me every time:
I demand this ban be lifted right now. ~Bibliodewangus

What you hear walking past people:
Erin Wake whispers, "You should ready up on Badger and boink with me..."

"I think you guys are just tired of drinking hitler and now you want diet hitler.
I've got all that great hitler flavor but only half the hitler calories." - Anon3

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that PR matters. ~MisterPerson

DEAD: Ichigo Momomiya says, "Coravin's just an ass."

Linus Johnson says, "Hey you know I got this game Skyrim last week"
Linus Johnson says, "I have a level 19 ranger and its so fun"
Weston Zadovsky says, "did he just"
Weston Zadovsky says, "fucking hell"

The emergency shuttle has been called. It will arrive in 10 minutes.
Nature of emergency:
Coravin, just Coravin.

Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Fucking get out."
Coravin Vattes asks, "Please?"
Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Please get the fuck outta my lab."
Coravin Vattes exclaims, "Okay!"
[Common] Beryl Nyuphoran {RD} asks, "WHO GAVE CORAVIN ALL ACCESS?"

Lindsay Donk stammers, "L-Luc-ck w-was-s-s s-s-such-h a beaut-tifu p-p-p-pr-r-rom-m q-q-q-queen"

Ty Andrews curls up in a ball on the floor and purrs.

by oranges » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:15 pm
Get out bluespace, you've not been relevant since you lost the elections

That said, I think there are a shitton of degenerates here and I'd probably gas the lot of you if I had the chance. ~Loonikus


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