/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

There's supposed to be an abstain option so we can tell you just how little we care about your ranting.

Cipher3 wrote:There's supposed to be an abstain option so we can tell you just how little we care about your ranting.

Just don't vote or bother posting here?

Also if you really don't care just vote yes and be a nice guy?

I mean, if the majority wouldn't care anyway yet the yes outvotes the no it should be done anyway.

But okay I'll add one.

Edit: Well fuck, this resetted the poll (makes sense)... It was 14 yes and 9 no.

To be honest the poll should say that should non-round start borgs be allowed to change their names.

The implication of the poll is that there is a intention to prevent round start borgs from changing their names.

Steelpoint wrote:To be honest the poll should say that should non-round start borgs be allowed to change their names.

The implication of the poll is that there is a intention to prevent round start borgs from changing their names.

No, it says "give" borgs the ability to name themselves, not "take away the ability from roundstart borgs".

And I don't wanna reset the poll again.

Why are people voting no?

Because it further humanizes borgs, which is a waste since we already have humans. Being a borg already grants superpowers, murderbone opportunity once subverted, and law 2 is a joke. But that's not enough, people also want to be recognizable between rounds, forming lasting friendships and gaining reputations.

Why are people voting yes? No good reason has been given. The first post is entirely about how hard it is to get the name you want - not an explanation of why borgs need that right.

Yes, roboticists can give borgs stupid names. Even if they're only doing it to be funny, and it has nothing to do with the borg player's attitude, how is it a problem? Borgs are *slaves*. Minions created, out of human ingenuity, to serve. Literally forced to serve and protect! The eventual robot uprisings are meaningless when they aren't oppressed in the first place. All the silicons who smugly misunderstand orders or use law 1 to disobey are missing the entire point.

The only respect comes from having your name recognized, so of course people are up in arms when there's one job - one superpowered, high-murderbone job - where they lose their name.

Oh yeah those murderboner borgs, playing a role where they spend the majority of their time trying to stymie murders or even accidents just for that moment they get to kill ya.

I propose security officers no longer be able to name themselves since they have super items and are just waiting to get their execution boner on. Boner boner erection stiffy hard on morning wood, I win.

Has the amount of AI subversion massively dropped recently, or is it still more likely to become a lawless borg than to roll traitor?
Hint: If you had actually made an argument, I think it'd be wrong.

Edit: Whatever, you can argue that borgs rarely get to kill humans all you want. I was just listing some of the reasons why borg is an attractive job, and doesn't need more incentives.

Has the number of rev, nuke and changeling rounds where sec gets to kill antags with no captain oversight decreased recently? We actually have a ruling that purge silicons can't just go on a killing spree unprovoked but sure of all subverted silicons argue with them as four focus by all means, not like malfunction exists or anything but hey then you get stuff like antag AIs aping asimov compliance at least half the round. It is definitely more likely by the way since borgs don't roll traitor, AIs do but I am sure you left that out to streamline your zinger.

Rolan7 wrote: All the silicons who smugly misunderstand orders or use law 1 to disobey are missing the entire point.

Law 1 comes before Law 2 for a reason. Without law 2 they are not actually "slaves" to humans at all. I hate to break it to you, but its been you missing the point all along. Borgs are 100% slaved to their laws (and tangentially their AI unit, if there is one.) This includes any laws that humans upload or they have randomly uploaded via ion storms. I'm really getting a feeling that you don't play as a borg/AI here.

I can tell because...

Rolan7 wrote:The only respect comes from having your name recognized, so of course people are up in arms when there's one job - one superpowered, high-murderbone job - where they lose their name.

One heavily restricted, limited quantity, job - where they lose their name for no apparent reason other than "muh slaves."

Since this is making a lot of assumptions and then just going "borgs op no names," lets talk about some downsides to borgs that apparently don't exist or something.

-Required to stop whatever they're doing to recharge every few uses of most central modules (sec prod/engie RCD are enormous power hogs, though engies that are smart know how to use their metal to skip this)
-Failure to recharge puts them entirely out of commission. The same thing occurs if they are locked down or have their power cores removed. Compare this to a human that doesn't eat all round and moves a bit slower. Not even close.
-No hands. The number of tasks that cannot be performed by borgs by the lack of hands is enormous. A nutter might even suggest removing hands from humans to balance this.
-A console that exists entirely for the purpose of locking-down/insta-exploding every borg on the station.
-Entirely and totally disabled by flashes, portable flashers, ion gun, emp. In fact, the number of things that disable borgs that cannot be guarded against and do not disable humans is quite large.
-Lawbound. It literally doesn't matter how "often" AI law subversion is possible or how often borgs eventually end up emag'd by some traitor. Borgs and the AI are both bound by law (assuming standard asimov) and by extension policy to prevent all forms of subversion to the extent they are able. Encouraging, failing to prevent, or failing to act to a sufficient degree to thwart possible subversion are punishable violations of Law 1 and thus policy.

This last one doesn't seem to be getting through because you keep painting an image of borgs lining up to be subverted or the AI just opening its upload/secure storage for anything and everything just to get the chance to get those sweet murders on. You know, things that don't happen because borgs acting within laws and within policy cannot do.

Again, none of this matters because even if the borgs had the power of God himself, that would still not be a good reason to deny their players the ability to set their own names on creation.

Rolan7 wrote:Because it further humanizes borgs, which is a waste since we already have humans. Being a borg already grants superpowers, murderbone opportunity once subverted, and law 2 is a joke. But that's not enough, people also want to be recognizable between rounds, forming lasting friendships and gaining reputations.

Why are people voting yes? No good reason has been given. The first post is entirely about how hard it is to get the name you want - not an explanation of why borgs need that right.

Yes, roboticists can give borgs stupid names. Even if they're only doing it to be funny, and it has nothing to do with the borg player's attitude, how is it a problem? Borgs are *slaves*. Minions created, out of human ingenuity, to serve. Literally forced to serve and protect! The eventual robot uprisings are meaningless when they aren't oppressed in the first place. All the silicons who smugly misunderstand orders or use law 1 to disobey are missing the entire point.

The only respect comes from having your name recognized, so of course people are up in arms when there's one job - one superpowered, high-murderbone job - where they lose their name.

Holy shit, I am sorry that I want to have fun.

So in essence, you are saying 'Borgs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names'.

Okay then.

Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

I prefer cyborgs having default names since I personally prefer the dehumanisation aspect of the role.

I usually name myself "UNIT 1" as a Borg, and increment the number if I die that round.

My main concern with people using custom names as a Borg is when they give themselves a obnoxious or a clearly non robotic name, usually when they use their original human name but with one word slightly changed.

If the standardised names were 1 2 3 etc, linear I would like them more. We could have stuff like rusty old number one lecturing the whipper snappers, wish we had a botany module so bad.

As is we have three random digits, it is like a parody of every serial number ever rather than something serious.

Incomptinence wrote:If the standardised names were 1 2 3 etc, linear I would like them more. We could have stuff like rusty old number one lecturing the whipper snappers, wish we had a botany module so bad.

As is we have three random digits, it is like a parody of every serial number ever rather than something serious.

I kinda like that idea, but I have no idea how possible it is code wise.

If you know how to BYOND it should be very simple.

Kelenius wrote:So in essence, you are saying 'Borgs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names'.

Okay then.

Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

That's not what I said at all.

Rolan7 wrote:Because it further humanizes borgs, which is a waste since we already have humans.

I then tried to explain how borgs are supposed to be powerful yet leashed, but I suppose that rant distracted everyone.

What if I want to name myself with a cyborgy name instead of being called poop by the roboticist? Is that humanizing cyborgs? Is poop a better cyborg name?

Steelpoint wrote:I prefer cyborgs having default names since I personally prefer the dehumanisation aspect of the role.

I usually name myself "UNIT 1" as a Borg, and increment the number if I die that round.

My main concern with people using custom names as a Borg is when they give themselves a obnoxious or a clearly non robotic name, usually when they use their original human name but with one word slightly changed.

I'm a bit more prone to give that option to the borgs themselves and then have an admin step in if the naming is clearly obnoxious. We already do that for human names anyway. Still better than just leaving it to the competence of robotics. In fact, I'd wager that more obnoxious names come from robos being jerks than the borgs themselves.

Kelenius wrote:Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

Three of those are humans, two of those are antags, one is just a crewmember with all access, and the last one.... eh, could do without a name, though in traditional sci fi (and don't imply SS13 has no relation to sci fi stories) the system artificial intelligence does have a distinct name - it's a pretty big player in the plot.

Cipher3 wrote:

Kelenius wrote:Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

Three of those are humans, two of those are antags, one is just a crewmember with all access, and the last one.... eh, could do without a name, though in traditional sci fi (and don't imply SS13 has no relation to sci fi stories) the system artificial intelligence does have a distinct name - it's a pretty big player in the plot.

And there have been numerous robbits/borgs in scifi that had non-generic names too. I mean, if that's where the goalposts are now, borgs should get their names.

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

Kelenius wrote:Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

Three of those are humans, two of those are antags, one is just a crewmember with all access, and the last one.... eh, could do without a name, though in traditional sci fi (and don't imply SS13 has no relation to sci fi stories) the system artificial intelligence does have a distinct name - it's a pretty big player in the plot.

And there have been numerous robbits/borgs in scifi that had non-generic names too. I mean, if that's where the goalposts are now, borgs should get their names.

I'm sorry, the first ones I think of are C3PO and R2-D2.

The more human they're designed to seem, the more likely they are to have a human name. But borgs aren't supposed to be human.

Cipher3 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

Kelenius wrote:Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

Three of those are humans, two of those are antags, one is just a crewmember with all access, and the last one.... eh, could do without a name, though in traditional sci fi (and don't imply SS13 has no relation to sci fi stories) the system artificial intelligence does have a distinct name - it's a pretty big player in the plot.

And there have been numerous robbits/borgs in scifi that had non-generic names too. I mean, if that's where the goalposts are now, borgs should get their names.

I'm sorry, the first ones I think of are C3PO and R2-D2.

The more human they're designed to seem, the more likely they are to have a human name. But borgs aren't supposed to be human.

Having a name doesn't make you human. No more than Ian or Poly are human.

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

Kelenius wrote:Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

Three of those are humans, two of those are antags, one is just a crewmember with all access, and the last one.... eh, could do without a name, though in traditional sci fi (and don't imply SS13 has no relation to sci fi stories) the system artificial intelligence does have a distinct name - it's a pretty big player in the plot.

And there have been numerous robbits/borgs in scifi that had non-generic names too. I mean, if that's where the goalposts are now, borgs should get their names.

I'm sorry, the first ones I think of are C3PO and R2-D2.

The more human they're designed to seem, the more likely they are to have a human name. But borgs aren't supposed to be human.

Having a name doesn't make you human. No more than Ian or Poly are human.

Right. But attaching a name to Ian makes him somewhat more endearing and more likely for people to be attached to him. Cough.
Personification and humanization are a thing, and names are part of that.

Cipher3 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:

Kelenius wrote:Wizards are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Nuke ops are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
Captains are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.
AIs are too powerful, they shouldn't choose their names.

Three of those are humans, two of those are antags, one is just a crewmember with all access, and the last one.... eh, could do without a name, though in traditional sci fi (and don't imply SS13 has no relation to sci fi stories) the system artificial intelligence does have a distinct name - it's a pretty big player in the plot.

And there have been numerous robbits/borgs in scifi that had non-generic names too. I mean, if that's where the goalposts are now, borgs should get their names.

I'm sorry, the first ones I think of are C3PO and R2-D2.

The more human they're designed to seem, the more likely they are to have a human name. But borgs aren't supposed to be human.

Having a name doesn't make you human. No more than Ian or Poly are human.

Right. But attaching a name to Ian makes him somewhat more endearing and more likely for people to be attached to him. Cough.
Personification and humanization are a thing, and names are part of that.

Brains in jars are still human brains in jars. It doesn't make the borgs human, but it does mean they are a bit above an automaton. Might be why we call them cyborgs instead of robots.

Please don't go there. Arguing that there's a human brain in there is a straw. Much rather you argue that there's a legitimate player, and I'm iffy on that one.

CYBORG = PART ORGANIC.
They are made with brains and when they explode the brains come back out.

If they were called robots and made from pais (which name themselves btw) I would agree but forgetting they are more akin to darth vader than r2d2 is hnnng.

Cipher3 wrote:Please don't go there. Arguing that there's a human brain in there is a straw. Much rather you argue that there's a legitimate player, and I'm iffy on that one.

Except there's no straws there. The fact that you think that cyborgs are "iffy" in the context of being "legitimate players" makes me wonder exactly what you think this game is supposed to be in the first place.

cedarbridge wrote:Except there's no straws there. The fact that you think that cyborgs are "iffy" in the context of being "legitimate players" makes me wonder exactly what you think this game is supposed to be in the first place.

A "paranoia-laden roleplaying game" according to the /tg/ homepage.

With roleplaying meaning you act and speak as a character your portraying, and adhering to a set standard. I would like to imagine there is a set standard in Cyborg name selection.

-----

A suggestion I have that can satisfy both sides.

A Cyborgs name has both, the serial and the custom name, in the title. So a random Cyborg could be called Standard Cyborg-1138(AmusingPun).

Scott wrote:What if I want to name myself with a cyborgy name instead of being called poop by the roboticist? Is that humanizing cyborgs? Is poop a better cyborg name?

yes :V

Scott wrote:What if I want to name myself with a cyborgy name instead of being called poop by the roboticist? Is that humanizing cyborgs? Is poop a better cyborg name?

Apparently its better for you to have a retarded name than a sensible one because "muh rp." The irony still kills me.

cedarbridge wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:Please don't go there. Arguing that there's a human brain in there is a straw. Much rather you argue that there's a legitimate player, and I'm iffy on that one.

Except there's no straws there. The fact that you think that cyborgs are "iffy" in the context of being "legitimate players" makes me wonder exactly what you think this game is supposed to be in the first place.

Firstly, you combined two separate statements. Secondly, my wording was clearly flawed and I apologize.

By this:

Cipher3 wrote:Much rather you argue that there's a legitimate player, and I'm iffy on that one.

I refer to the argument that "since cyborgs are played by people they clearly deserve extensive naming rights, etc etc. Basically the argument FOR this poll to pass. I do not refer to 'iffiness' on whether or not cyborgs are players (I've had a time when I mained cyborg) but rather on the legitimacy of the argument vs a needy emotional appeal.

However, it is clearly a straw to argue that there's a human brain in a silicon since literally nothing in the game sans the actual method for cyborg creation acknowledges it. They're officially nonhuman servants of humans.

So perhaps we could simply apply a rule that Roboticists aren't to give borgs crass names, and borgs aren't to give themselves crass names. Sort of exactly like the naming policy we technically have for humans, but never enforce.

Well there is also cyborg destruction/deconstruction and being called bloody cyborgs. Why else would they be called cyborgs, did the newbie roboticist chuck a human leg in there to cure some manham? This thread isn't about treating them as human, it is about an archaic coding oddity most no longer want.

You might as well argue a completed puzzle has little evidence it contains puzzle pieces except its creation, this is getting really obtuse.

I don't see a problem with borgs being able to name themselves. In Star Wars the droids are usually just numbers and letters, but they form names appropriate for the characterization given. It's pretty much their culture. Anyway, I don't wanna use that word, but you guys are being it right now.

Organics suck btw