Remove the Veterinarian and Beach Bum roles

[Bombadil]

Bottom post of the previous page:

A xenobio ruin seems cool on paper until they figure a way to flood the station with sentient spiders or an army of golems.

Even more so with the ease with which they can escape, I'd rather have the derelict given things for drones to use without leaving to the station rather than add a ghost role that can create more ghost roles.

>Ease at which they can escape

What ease? They are on a lava hell planet. You could just not give them mining tools like the hydroponics ruin.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Spiders need oxygen as part of atmos requirements, so that's not specifically a concern on lavaland. (Unless its atmos independent ice spiders)

In which case if spiders are so bad, just run a PR to change spiders.

[cedarbridge]

A xenobio ruin seems cool on paper until they figure a way to flood the station with sentient spiders or an army of golems.

Even more so with the ease with which they can escape, I'd rather have the derelict given things for drones to use without leaving to the station rather than add a ghost role that can create more ghost roles.

>Ease at which they can escape

What ease? They are on a lava hell planet. You could just not give them mining tools like the hydroponics ruin.

Nevermind that we already have a ruin full of ghost role sentient golems.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Those ones aren't implicitly hostile, but nothing is saying that ordered xenobio golems couldn't be.

[cedarbridge]

Those ones aren't implicitly hostile, but nothing is saying that ordered xenobio golems couldn't be.

Golems and other summoned mobs inherit their antag status and hostility from their summoners. Don't grant the ghost summoning more ghosts antag-lite. Easy.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean i already had a suggestion thread up about xenobio esque/surgery ruin using ayys sooo...

*cough*

So have we got any kind of consensus of what to do with veterinary & beach bum roles? people seem eager to replace it for more interesting concepts.

[ShadowDimentio]

Nobody wants to keep them except the coders who want to keep it soely for """"variety""""

[Bombadil]

Nobody wants to keep them except the coders who want to keep it soely for """"variety""""

Muh legacy memes.

I bet if we took a look at the stats for the ruins golems, ashwalkers and plant pod would win out by like 10x and more

[Haevacht]

Nobody wants to keep them except the coders who want to keep it soely for """"variety""""

Days since Dimentio said MUH CODERS: 0

[BeeSting12]

Nobody uses the vet ruin or beach bum ruin unless they see a way to get to the station fast. They don't have anything to do besides "RP", and I've never seen anyone do it. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I've never seen it and I think it can be replaced by something better. Such as an alien surgery room or bring back the prison ruin.

[Haevacht]

Nobody uses the vet ruin or beach bum ruin unless they see a way to get to the station fast. They don't have anything to do besides "RP", and I've never seen anyone do it. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I've never seen it and I think it can be replaced by something better. Such as an alien surgery room or bring back the prison ruin.

While we're sharing useless anecdotes, I've seen a great beach bum RP round. He got to station and got valid'd by the HoS. I was sad. Escorted by miners and the whole shebang it was good.

[Grazyn]

Nobody uses the vet ruin or beach bum ruin unless they see a way to get to the station fast. They don't have anything to do besides "RP", and I've never seen anyone do it. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I've never seen it and I think it can be replaced by something better. Such as an alien surgery room or bring back the prison ruin.

While we're sharing useless anecdotes, I've seen a great beach bum RP round. He got to station and got valid'd by the HoS. I was sad. Escorted by miners and the whole shebang it was good.

Well with lavaland roles the fun is supposed to be in the journey itself, you know you're gonna get killed as soon as you step on the station because all ghost roles are valid

[Incomptinence]

You can spawn in as a solo vet or bum and rp around or just try to scavenge stuff and no one will join you trust me on this these ruins are less alive than those containing corpses.

It's like the difference between a book that tells a story and a play cancelled due to all the actors being absent.

I am not surprised people are sick of these stale references, almost empty ruins world build better.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Usually additional doctors just fight between themselves, or its a burden to have additional ghost roles (or additional lives if said first doctor dies) because of spreading out resources.

The syndicate base co-ordinator is also alone because the rest of the syndicate scientists meant to man the 'labs' don't have meaningful jobs and are punished for using their skills and equipment to escape (gaining notes for making carpet turf replacing bombs so they can go outside) while the co-ordinator can indulge in snooping on the crew & talking to traitor antagonists.

[cedarbridge]

Nobody uses the vet ruin or beach bum ruin unless they see a way to get to the station fast. They don't have anything to do besides "RP", and I've never seen anyone do it. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I've never seen it and I think it can be replaced by something better. Such as an alien surgery room or bring back the prison ruin.

While we're sharing useless anecdotes, I've seen a great beach bum RP round. He got to station and got valid'd by the HoS. I was sad. Escorted by miners and the whole shebang it was good.

Well with lavaland roles the fun is supposed to be in the journey itself, you know you're gonna get killed as soon as you step on the station because all ghost roles are valid

Except no? While ghost roles do not generally get protection where those roles are innately antagonistic (syndiebase, ash lizards), I would be hard pressed to justify a non-antag murdering a vet or beach bum who made it on station fnr. This is roughly equivalent to the HoS we had to yell at for trying to execute a ferry full of naked people "because admin events are valid." Merely existing as a non-crew entity does not or at least should not paint a target on your head as a free kill to some valid-hungry greyshirt or sec officer.

[Lazengann]

Going after people who aren't on the manifest used to be a good way to thwart stealth ops.

[cedarbridge]

Going after people who aren't on the manifest used to be a good way to thwart stealth ops.

Well, given the number of "civilian" positions on what is supposedly a secure research station and that just about every map we use has a "Customs" office, I think we have plenty of room to move away from that. Off-station, non-crew roles and activities are interesting when they use the station as a center hub for activity, like the sorts of space stations you see in popular sci fi. DS9 was interesting episode to episode not because of the people who were always on the station interacting with each other but because of the constant traffic of people from outside the station and the things and situations they brought with them.

[BeeSting12]

The thing is, what can be accomplished with the vet ship and beach bum thing (getting cool adventures to the station or whatever) can be accomplished with a more interesting ruin that works out to be fun even if you are too far from the lavaland base or decide to stay in your ruin. Y'know, having something to do there that makes it interesting. There's a reason golem ships and syndicate bases are populated nearly every round, it's because they have interesting gameplay and roleplay in their ruin. They rarely go to the station because they don't have to do it for fun. Ashwalkers are still a good ruin- more combat oriented, more about getting kills than learning departments, but good because they have the equipment to explore lavaland. Beach bums and the vets have nothing to do besides pray someone will save them or meta a clear path back and use it

[calzilla1]

We should have more ruins that interact with the station

[FantasticFwoosh]

Getting destroyed by roaming map goliaths is good gameplay how? all of them couldn't stand up to 1 measly goliath and how are they expected to get back to the station without a clear path, nothing to do in the ruin except hope that maybe they can offer themselves as a sacrifice to a much more superior ruin ghost role or like previously referenced, run up and grab antag by infecting themselves with xeno.

[The Ultimate Chimera]

I agree, remove please.

[Oldman Robustin]

When you select these roles you will:

1) Stay in a single enclosed area for the rest of the round, trying to squeeze some roleplaying out the situation but inevitably failing because people don't play SS13 to be in a virtual chat room

2) You spotted a nearby miner and select the role so you can follow them back and rejoin the round - and if they dont help you then you try to push them down and murder them

3) You memorize the path to the mining docks and make a run for it


None of these are particularly healthy for the game but it's not a big enough deal to justify removing it until someone designs a better alternative.

Edit: One better alternative would be to give at least the vets a way to deal with mining threats (think along the lines of ash lizards and their spears).

[Lazengann]

The other ghost roles are already the alternative

[FantasticFwoosh]

2 & 3 Oldman are particularly partial to meta-communication, which is a primary arguement if you take into the point that someone might die, then pick up a doctor/beach bum as a 'second life' then call a miner over skype to come save them & deliver to the station to pick up where they left off.

If you want to be really tacky, a ghost follows you through lavaland and meta-comms you instructions of threats & where to go.

---

Its a BAD model for a ruin, migrants were envisoned by kor to be latejoins, this is latejoining when you are already dead.

[Bombadil]

When you select these roles you will:

1) Stay in a single enclosed area for the rest of the round, trying to squeeze some roleplaying out the situation but inevitably failing because people don't play SS13 to be in a virtual chat room

2) You spotted a nearby miner and select the role so you can follow them back and rejoin the round - and if they dont help you then you try to push them down and murder them

3) You memorize the path to the mining docks and make a run for it


None of these are particularly healthy for the game but it's not a big enough deal to justify removing it until someone designs a better alternative.

Edit: One better alternative would be to give at least the vets a way to deal with mining threats (think along the lines of ash lizards and their spears).

Oh no it's cool a shotgun with 5 slugs is good enough to handle all of lavaland

[Bombadil]

>When your pickaxe spawns in a river of lava and fades to ash trapping you in your veterinarian office


Quality shit.


QUALITY SHIT.

[BeeSting12]

snip
>When your pickaxe spawns in a river of lava and fades to ash trapping you in your veterinarian office


Quality shit.


QUALITY SHIT.

its ok just RP in the ruin. /s

[FantasticFwoosh]

Thank god for suicide verbs.

[Grazyn]

I'm one of the least robust players on the server and even I managed to kill a goliath as vet with the circular saw. You have access to unlimited amounts of healing, just kite, hit, heal damage, repeat

[FantasticFwoosh]

There's also this suggestion i just put up which might be able to redeem the vet hospital way from being a meme.

It just covers changing them from migrant role, by giving them some basic mining gear, and a custom mining vendor & ORM for nessecary non R&D machine parts at price of mining points (if the station is not willing to throw through to a teleport beacon) to go out into lavaland and recover & save miners when their suit sensors read them out as critical.

---

EDIT: Just a update, even when they are in touching distance and you could easily walk the distance, people still don't want to play as doctors.

[Toroic]

I've been playing exclusively ashland roles from roundstart lately, and It's pretty clear that ashwalker and lifebringer are the most fun and almost always have interaction with miners. Golems have some fundemental flaws (random idiots inhabiting upgraded bodies, roundstart golems are stuck with one of the worst variants, can't make significant numbers of the variants due to lack of resources unless the round goes for hours and/or you get back to the station).

But they're all vastly superior to beach bums and vet hospital. Why would lava-guidos or a vet hospital exist on lavaland? They don't make sense in context like the other options do, and I think everyone would be happier seeing more of the cool ghost roles more often and less of the boring ones.

Tbh, I think people would have a lot of fun with having ash walkers, lifebringers, golems on the map every round. Even without miners touching lavaland you could get a nations-style gameplay. Both ashwalkers and golems would significantly benefit from enslaving/befriending the lifebringers early, as lifebringers become steadily more powerful the longer the game goes. Half the time that physical space and the ghost oppurtunities are taken by plain boring humans which isn't particularly fun.

[FantasticFwoosh]

That's another nail on the head generally for ruins in glad you mentioned toroic, humans are quinsentially boring & largely dependant on atmos (additional mapping work) than other ghost roles (golems/ashwalkers) and if they are locked in or put onto a limited air supply (beach bums aren't but can't refill air) then that means that eventually they will die regardless.

- Even before custom mineral golems came around, golems were a good choice because they were strong reliable and atmos independant with the caveat that they can't wear clothes beside a belt, ties, and headgear. Ashwalkers too are a unique subspecies of lizard that is non-breathing although they do not have trigger fingers, and are exclusively digitgrade

You might have to bring a new race to the table or as expressively seen in the plant vault ruin, if they are atmos dependant, offer them actually meaningful activities (to be said the plant vault playability does tire over time but does live out a good hour and half of gameplay)

[Toroic]

That's another nail on the head generally for ruins in glad you mentioned toroic, humans are quinsentially boring & largely dependant on atmos (additional mapping work) than other ghost roles (golems/ashwalkers) and if they are locked in or put onto a limited air supply (beach bums aren't but can't refill air) then that means that eventually they will die regardless.

- Even before custom mineral golems came around, golems were a good choice because they were strong reliable and atmos independant with the caveat that they can't wear clothes beside a belt, ties, and headgear. Ashwalkers too are a unique subspecies of lizard that is non-breathing although they do not have trigger fingers, and are exclusively digitgrade

You might have to bring a new race to the table or as expressively seen in the plant vault ruin, if they are atmos dependant, offer them actually meaningful activities (to be said the plant vault playability does tire over time but does live out a good hour and half of gameplay)

The other fundamental difference with golems/lifebringer/ashwalkers is that they are a lot more independent. For example, all three can produce all their own equipment and even resurrect party members (replica seeds, eggs, golem shell) and given enough time could "beat" lavaland without relying on help from miners. Golems in particular have good odds of taking down megafauna once they have modified KA.

These options feel "complete" in a way beach bums don't, in terms of lore and gameplay potential. Even in a lowpop round without any shaft miners they can carve out a living in the ashlands.

Also, from testing beach bums some more, only the bartender has equipment that can reasonably be used to survive outside of the beach area, the other two freeze to death pretty rapidly upon leaving unless they're continuously eating donk pockets.

[Cobby]

I actually use vet to steal medical supplies since it has like 10 brute/burn patches not even including the free medkits.

[FantasticFwoosh]

So yeah its powercreep too out of the actual usable supplies for loot? If you empty the place out the actual ghost roles have no supplies to use and are hence more likely to die with their near 0 PVE capabilities. They are literally too soft to survive.

[cocothegogo]

prisoner shuttle was the only fun ghost role imo

[FantasticFwoosh]

prisoner shuttle was the only fun ghost role imo

Each to their own, it was literally the worst of both worlds. A valid free antag that migrated with no RP purpose but to literally RP a antagonist.

[Cheridan]

Getting destroyed by roaming map goliaths is good gameplay how? all of them couldn't stand up to 1 measly goliath and how are they expected to get back to the station without a clear path, nothing to do in the ruin except hope that maybe they can offer themselves as a sacrifice to a much more superior ruin ghost role or like previously referenced, run up and grab antag by infecting themselves with xeno.

If you can't kill a goliath with a circular saw you need to git gud tbh.
Not to mention that they died in an actual hospital surrounded with brute patches.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Its a skillcheck to the extreme, and from there on there's nowhere to go PvE progression wise cheridan, you can't afford to be standing around getting tentacled or put into forced combat with a watcher or anything beyond that. There's challenging survival ghost roles (hermit) and then there's RP job roles who even with arguably more tools have multiple members & no objective reason to exist.

Its literally not in their playstyle, the robust nature of medical versus threats comes in directly combating CARBONS, rather than simple mobs.

> How at ALL does the cow & the rat factor in?

[cedarbridge]

Not to mention that they died in an actual hospital surrounded with brute patches.

You're not surviving a knockdown as an unarmed dude long enough to use a brute patch.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Reviving this thread temporarily, hermit and other ghost roles got a substantial buff in lavaland plants (which are pretty powerful actually) being cultivatable in native lavaland soil trays, making it a bit easier to manage your crops and survive for extended periods of time.

However beach bums & vets are still super reliant on luck to basically steal the better parts, or die; they haven't had a relevant PR since forever and are fading into obscurity as barely anybody plays them.

A same fate has befell the lavaland syndicate base.

[Anonmare]

Fun fact: The beach bums only speak beach tongue while the bartender only speaks common

Figure that out.

Also the vet airlocks STILL are the type that don't shut when they're opened, resulting in them letting all the air out (and they don't have a lot to begin with)

[FantasticFwoosh]

Having the beach bums modify their language isn't exactly re-defining the ruin, given that the effect also applies to stoners on the station or elsewhere, in truth it is a recent change but mostly a minor one.

[chemiiat]

Beach bums and vets are the worst ghost roles since there's nothing they can really do. All the 'valued' ghost roles (ash walkers, dorfs, comms agent) have stuff they can do to pass the time or have fun.

Bums and vets just kind of sit there doing nothing unless they're trying to meta their way to the gluttony syringe

[Ergovisavi]

Speak for yourselves. I find the Vets and Beach Bums great for killing dragons and colossi. Beach bum gives you a nice big arena to work with, and the vet gives you lots of medical supplies.

Great if you just want to measure how robust you're feeling.

[Bombadil]

Speak for yourselves. I find the Vets and Beach Bums great for killing dragons and colossi. Beach bum gives you a nice big arena to work with, and the vet gives you lots of medical supplies.

Great if you just want to measure how robust you're feeling.

Beach bum is terrible necause of the air pressure nullifies the damage bonuses.

Also this in no way validates the ghost roles still being shit

[D&B]

Speak for yourselves. I find the Vets and Beach Bums great for killing dragons and colossi. Beach bum gives you a nice big arena to work with, and the vet gives you lots of medical supplies.

Great if you just want to measure how robust you're feeling.

That's exactly the problem with them. Rather than being engaging or interesting, they're just second lives

[Anonmare]

I still think they should be replaced with other, more fun ruins. Like an abductor ruin that teaches Xenobio+Genetics (like have them experiment on lobotomised humans)

[Karp]

the golems can already use their point machine to buy grey slimes and monkey cubes

xenobiology already exists and they can make genetics with monkey cubes and rnd

there's already a xenobiology ruin so yeah

[Anonmare]

Yeah but that takes time and effort. The abductor ruin would be like the Syndie ruin - ready to go. Even though golems could technically do 2/3 of what the syndie ruin does.

[BeeSting12]

Neither of these roles have enough content to make them exciting on their own. They're only used on the off chance that mining may be nearby or a miner has made it there giving them an easy path back to actual good content. A crashed vet ship could be an okay ruin for medical loot however as a ghost role it is not good.