/tg/Station 13

Okay so I was having a conversation in deadchat with someone who got killed by a cyborg. They had a tail and did not realize it made them nonhuman under Asimov because of the way the setup menu is made- While you're a human, you can add the mutant traits, not making it clear that you are nonhuman. The cat race should be changed to be a different race instead of a mutant trait that is added onto the human. This would change nothing about the way that catpeople look or how they are under policy/what jobs they can choose. This would just change the way you choose them as a race on the setup menu to make it more intuitive for newer players. Thanks for reading and if anyone can do this before I can then feel free to do it, I'm kinda scared to touch to species code.

BeeSting12 wrote:Okay so I was having a conversation in deadchat with someone who got killed by a cyborg. They had a tail and did not realize it made them nonhuman under Asimov because of the way the setup menu is made- While you're a human, you can add the mutant traits, not making it clear that you are nonhuman. The cat race should be changed to be a different race instead of a mutant trait that is added onto the human. This would change nothing about the way that catpeople look or how they are under policy/what jobs they can choose. This would just change the way you choose them as a race on the setup menu to make it more intuitive for newer players. Thanks for reading and if anyone can do this before I can then feel free to do it, I'm kinda scared to touch to species code.

The problem is that cats aren't actually their own species datum so you can't shoehorn them into the system. They're a mutant race of human. If you want to get around that just make a note about it on the wiki.

they're not a species, they're not even a mutant race.

The cat ears and cat tail are tests of a feature that was meant to provide for appearance quirks like the frills/horns for lizards but for humans, the intent being for people to have facial tattoos or similar.

Some madman admin turned them on without asking us.

We will strongly resist any attempt to turn them into a full mutant species.

they're being treated as one in the server policy though. they should get their own race, it'd be just as easy to disable it, I'd assume. unless of course it's very hard to code in which case, never mind.

that is not our problem, if the server admins want to turn on debug features and then have issues with policy that is entirely their fault, server policy will rarely if ever dictate how code is structured/functions and if you ask me this is analogous to the hulk situation, where a person who gets hulked can be considered non human.

Most people don't seem to struggle with that concept past their first encounter with it.

No.

Aliannera wrote:No.

thank you for the constructive feedback

BeeSting12 wrote:

Aliannera wrote:No.

thank you for the constructive feedback

I mean, you were already told why not. I'm not sure what else you're looking for here.

I already got the answer, saying "No" isn't helping. I got it with an actual reason from a code maintainer and that's that

Yeah stupid admins get out

Yes, for extra lynching and bulge noticing

No

catpeople should be slugs

can i remove the test feature now since we added actual usage cases of the feature that doesn't play into someone's fetish?

iamgoofball wrote:can i remove the test feature now since we added actual usage cases of the feature that doesn't play into someone's fetish?

the more you try and claim it's for fetishistic reasons the less credibility you have, which knowing you, is astonishing.

Cats r dumb tbqh

whats the test feature

It was apparently added to test out adding things such as frills and horns on lizards or whatever. This thread can be locked now, we're done here. I got an answer from a code maintainer and that's that.

confused rock wrote:whats the test feature

Cat ears/tail were added to test the ability to add features to character mobs. The cat stuff was the test model and the features that followed, (lizard frills, body markings, etc) are a product of that. It will be eventually incorporated into any other species added to the game that have interchangeable features in the same way.

I'm 100% A FUCKING OKAY with having catpeople be nonhuman.

You want cat ears and to be named kitty mcmeowzers don't be upset when the robots lynch you for killing someone

Bombadil wrote:I'm 100% A FUCKING OKAY with having catpeople be nonhuman.

You want cat ears and to be named kitty mcmeowzers don't be upset when the robots lynch you for killing someone

That's not what this thread is about. Catpeople are already non-human under policy. The OPs complaint is that they appear on character creation as a human with the option to add cat features.

cedarbridge wrote:

Bombadil wrote:I'm 100% A FUCKING OKAY with having catpeople be nonhuman.

You want cat ears and to be named kitty mcmeowzers don't be upset when the robots lynch you for killing someone

That's not what this thread is about. Catpeople are already non-human under policy. The OPs complaint is that they appear on character creation as a human with the option to add cat features.

Oh in that case I feel like that really isn't the responsibility of coderbus it's on the person for not reading the rules of the server. Coderbus can't cater solely to the policy of /tg/

It should imo, as just a change to make it clearer and consistent to newer players.

Though the eyes of an uneducated player, I can conpletely see where the confusion comes from. Lizards, the other race w/ customization are all lizards no matter their tail/color/etc. So why are humans with cat features different from your regular old human?

Keep in mind, this isnt me giving out my support to any one side (in fact, I dislike cat ears and tails!).

TrustyGun wrote:It should imo, as just a change to make it clearer and consistent to newer players.

Though the eyes of an uneducated player, I can conpletely see where the confusion comes from. Lizards, the other race w/ customization are all lizards no matter their tail/color/etc. So why are humans with cat features different from your regular old human?

Keep in mind, this isnt me giving out my support to any one side (in fact, I dislike cat ears and tails!).

I'm the resident "please consider new players" shill admin so you have my support

Just have a big fuckin red message appear on the character setup screen if the player picks any combination of traits that makes them nonhuman to silicons and tells them Your character is non-human.
Silicons operating under the default Asimov lawset are not required to protect you or follow your orders.

Cat feature is literally on thin ice, most coders and admins barely tolerate it, all it takes is a single headmin or coder to turn it off forever and you can kiss it goodbye. So play cat while you can and cherish every second of it because it can really be the last. Drawing attention to the feature and asking for tweaks or policy changes only makes the clock tick faster towards its inevitable final removal.

Grazyn wrote:Cat feature is literally on thin ice, most coders and admins barely tolerate it

That's a pretty authoritative statement without a citation.

cedarbridge wrote:

Grazyn wrote:Cat feature is literally on thin ice, most coders and admins barely tolerate it

That's a pretty authoritative statement without a citation.

It's not even true either.
it's just oranges and goof are loud, doesn't mean they're "most" people.

After my last rant meltdown you probably have a inkling i don't like catpeople, im willing to behave & debate this fairly.

This lurching midway on now barely mutants but still human between the two is ENTIRELY personal-coding since under gooncode it'd be a Bio-Effect (a system we don't have), and besides the reasons that people might try to make it unique as a race, it seems quite evident from the endless feedback everyone gets maintainers,coders and players are uncomfortable with admins pernamently changing someones personal character.

> I've had rounds where everyone was turned into a catified being for no reason other than admin amusement without even a centcomm message, though it does not affect my ability to play id rather not be distracted with the IC aesthetic implications for my immersion. (In the cast of removing the lizard tail *if it does that i forget* its actually a game balance changing effect)

> If you want to keep cat-people abstract to catify effects with a full species merge, then fine. But please allow us a way to remove the features without constantly bothering you the maintainers and coders to remove catpeople. I swear to you, that people will start mass-removing catpeople effects as soon as they are affected with it.

---

We literally removed the cat ears item that did the same effect to create a racey-wacey barnyard version because it tickles somoene's fancy. Its not a feature and all staff refuses to acknowledge it as a feature to back up the point. I like being my roundstart race. Remove the mass catify button please because admins do not deserve that power to infringe on players personal characters in such a way, literally every other way OTHER than permanently perverting a character that some people take very seriously.

> The people voted for a ability to have cat ears by choice in roundstart, not to be randomly disfigured. Kor's has already removed cat ears from command roles by creating lines of code to purify them into the human basetype, which tells us that the affection to cat ear memes is not universal and self promoted cat ear captains are not kosher by law or bare minimum roleplaying standards. (lizards for example)

cedarbridge wrote:

Grazyn wrote:Cat feature is literally on thin ice, most coders and admins barely tolerate it

That's a pretty authoritative statement without a citation.

You must have noticed that every thread or PR about cats attracts an aura of negativity and sharp comments, some from powerful coders and maintainers. It doesn't help that the last time cats were removed for literally no reason by a single admin, it took nearly two months to re-enable them, and this was when cats were at their peak of popularity.

If you think cats are a beloved staple feature of TG, you are delusional. They are on thin ice and they're one drama thread away from being permanently removed.

Such a "community driven" project.

Grazyn wrote: You must have noticed that every thread or PR about cats attracts an aura of negativity and sharp comments, some from powerful coders and maintainers. It doesn't help that the last time cats were removed for literally no reason by a single admin, it took nearly two months to re-enable them, and this was when cats were at their peak of popularity.

If you think cats are a beloved staple feature of TG, you are delusional. They are on thin ice and they're one drama thread away from being permanently removed.

Im of the opinion that the person who pushed this feature onto us in the transition from (cute optional cat ear item in some vendors for the ear slot) to - "every round admins are bored they give everyone mutant body parts for fun unannounced" should be gitbanned or otherwise reprimanded for making the community so unhappy, if not just for a act to show that staff care about feedback.

- Alternatively let us melt our ears off, or surgically remove cat ears in a operation.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:

Grazyn wrote: You must have noticed that every thread or PR about cats attracts an aura of negativity and sharp comments, some from powerful coders and maintainers. It doesn't help that the last time cats were removed for literally no reason by a single admin, it took nearly two months to re-enable them, and this was when cats were at their peak of popularity.

If you think cats are a beloved staple feature of TG, you are delusional. They are on thin ice and they're one drama thread away from being permanently removed.

Im of the opinion that the person who pushed this feature onto us in the transition from (cute optional cat ear item in some vendors for the ear slot) to - "every round admins are bored they give everyone mutant body parts for fun unannounced" should be gitbanned or otherwise reprimanded for making the community so unhappy, if not just for a act to show that staff care about feedback.

- Alternatively let us melt our ears off, or surgically remove cat ears in a operation.

You should really stick to your "Ideas" topics.

Also... admins have access to the server configuration? I naively thought that only the host could make persistent configuration changes.

another classic fwoosh post, I quite liked his comment about bio-effects in goon code, top quality

Just a opinion of myself. Ill go back and highlight it in bold if i need to, in a position to do anything with rogue coders id haul out the person/people responsible, make them issue a public forum apology, revert and leave it open to revision for when there's actually a good reason to add it.

(I mean yes i understand that by playing on the server you rescind your rights for admins not to screw with you within rule boundaries, but mass-catifying people irreversibly is poor taste)

But why isn't there a cat person operation for the ears & groin if its not meant to be a pernament feature or even a feature? Ill get on the phone to iamgoofball.

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:

FantasticFwoosh wrote:

Grazyn wrote: You must have noticed that every thread or PR about cats attracts an aura of negativity and sharp comments, some from powerful coders and maintainers. It doesn't help that the last time cats were removed for literally no reason by a single admin, it took nearly two months to re-enable them, and this was when cats were at their peak of popularity.

If you think cats are a beloved staple feature of TG, you are delusional. They are on thin ice and they're one drama thread away from being permanently removed.

Im of the opinion that the person who pushed this feature onto us in the transition from (cute optional cat ear item in some vendors for the ear slot) to - "every round admins are bored they give everyone mutant body parts for fun unannounced" should be gitbanned or otherwise reprimanded for making the community so unhappy, if not just for a act to show that staff care about feedback.

- Alternatively let us melt our ears off, or surgically remove cat ears in a operation.

You should really stick to your "Ideas" topics.

Also... admins have access to the server configuration? I naively thought that only the host could make persistent configuration changes.

lzimann wasn't a host and he disabled cats single-handedly

The sequence of events was

Ricotez adds them as a test part for the mutation system

MSO enables them on basil to try and lure people to populate it. They are counted as human at this time.

Shadowlight (headmin) enables them on sybil

Lzimann (headmin), in a later term, disables cat ears on his way out

Next set of headmins vote to re-enable them but count them as non human as a compromise to people who dislike them (which I personally think is confusing as no other mutations outside of hulk make people non human and they had counted as human for a year before that)

So just lots of people pushing and pulling in different ways until we hit a weird arbitrary balance, which is generally how things work here.

I could probably make them their own specie but what are the chances of that PR ever going through right?

Just make it extreme plastic surgery, catpeople don't exist its just a bunch of weaboo wannabes, which fits into the lore & reality. I was having this discussion in coderbus with Antur & co. Remove & add with plastic surgery and you have no grounds to substantiate it as a race (along with other edge cases & body modifcation such as space elves with just surgically altered ears), and a way to remove + add it without resorting to buttons or genetics

Its not a genetic trait you can manipulate which is a important thing, basically you cannot turn it off if it is forced onto you currently without literally switching your ckey body with a brain transplant and injecting a SE of your dna to alter your appearance back to normal.

No. Inviting furry drama and splitting the community is the only outcome to this.

It changes nothing to how catpeople are played, their human status, policy, or anything. Just changes how you select the species. But, as oranges as said about 30 posts ago, it's not going to happen. And Fwoosh I'm not even sure what you're posting about but we need a containment ideas thread for you or some shit.

BeeSting12 wrote:It changes nothing to how catpeople are played, their human status, policy, or anything.

"Cat-people" Aka people who otherwise are descended from or share traits with cats dont exist, we shouldn't even refer to them by that name because they are not people or persons, not a recognised race. There's still the issue that you can't remove the mutant parts after they are put onto you, being a Neko doesn't offer you any special treatment other than perhaps the affection of other people who favour Neko. AI has its rules against mutants and (kor is right to point out discrepencies) can't discriminate against neko.

Oldman Robustin wrote:No. Inviting furry drama and splitting the community is the only outcome to this.

The way im starting to see it, is that you need to be open to everything now (we live in strange times), but disregard the Neko genetic disposition and just see it as a social state of being, like have a in game gender or identity change different to your base identity. Gender swapping was fine until goof pushed it into a slime potion and then lots of people ribbed him over the SS13 digg when the story got out for being a accused non social progressive and a bit of a bigot. (catch myself almost sound like a SJW)

Half of me though thinks admins avoid it to stop forum complaining & drama, just a case of Lzimann doesn't care about backlash so the absolute madman disabled it. (Make SS13 great again!)

FantasticFwoosh wrote:> I've had rounds where everyone was turned into a catified being for no reason other than admin amusement without even a centcomm message, though it does not affect my ability to play id rather not be distracted with the IC aesthetic implications for my immersion. (In the cast of removing the lizard tail *if it does that i forget* its actually a game balance changing effect)

I mean, we could just go the /vg/ route, port Tajarans and make them valid.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:It changes nothing to how catpeople are played, their human status, policy, or anything.

"Cat-people" Aka people who otherwise are descended from or share traits with cats dont exist, we shouldn't even refer to them by that name because they are not people or persons, not a recognised race.

They're non-human mutant race policy wise, but lorewise it isn't cut and clear, they could be cat people from Cat Planet for all I know

The lack of a transparency is a critical issue because it gives ammo to both sides for & against sovereign race catpeople and a never ending contrived barrage of begging to maintainers to take action.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:sovereign race catpeople

oh boy here we go

The slippery slope doesn't exist, they said.

Long since erased from the records of time, there once existed two European clans who served as overseers of history for the powers that be: The Neko Cat Girls, dwellers of the darkness, and the Slippery Slope Sages, controllers of light.

Goofball was right again.

InsaneHyena wrote:Goofball was right again.

>goofball
>right
>ever
just when i start to think you're capable of being less than completely wrong you do this