The shuttle autorecaller

[bandit]

I like this idea in theory but in practice:

A) it misses some very obvious cases of when the shuttle needs to be called, such as nuke ops
B) if you miss the "cancel shuttle autorecall" window, like for instance if your client crashes WHICH IT DOES EVERY 1 MINUTE, then it is hard to figure out wtf to do

[Steelpoint]

I think it's just bad in practice.

I was the Captain in a round with this being tested. Early into the round the Supermatter Exploded, killing every Engineer on station sans one Atmo Tech, who turned out to be a traitor and tried to suicide bomb me later on. This explosion, coupled with some non-antag hijinks from prior to the explosion, left the station depowered but also draining air.

Despite my best attempts (and dying two times) the Solar array could not keep the station powered, and tcomms would keep running out of power despite my best efforts to repair the broken machines and repower the APC. This, coupled with the utter destruction of law and order, the crew going nuts, traitors running around making things worse in the dark, no comms and most of the station being depressurized, I made a decision to call evacuation.

Except we could not, everytime we called for evac we were denied, no matter how many people died, no matter how much of the station fell into chaos, we were shat on by a automatic controller and told to fix it. Eventually the comms consoles bugged out and the AI went braindead before the hour mark and the admins bailed ship 30 minutes into the round. Two hours into the round we had to build a second AI just so we could call the evac shuttle due to the comms consoles bugging out.

No one enjoyed that round, it was a shit show and everyone was complaining of how drawn out that affair was.

I simply detest this recaller, it shits on the crew and it tried to police a sandbox game that is based on unpredictability.

[Armhulen]

Me and durk experienced a round where:
SM blew up, killing all the engineers
Bridge got syndicate bomb'd
Sec killed at least 8 greyshits who survived the bomb



The shuttle auto recalled.

[XDTM]

Don't ops on station allow the shuttle call? If you called it before the ops even got there then it was kinda unjustified.

I think the rest of the issues would be solved by a less restrictive limit, it was testmerged before coiax could adjust them.

[Qbopper]

yeah I don't want to see it scrapped just yet, take the complaints from github/forums and change it then keep trying - if it's still broken it can die

I won't defend it as is despite wanting it in because if it doesn't work, it doesn't work

[lumipharon]

All feedback has been howling rage. People do not like having their choices taken away from them - this is a game and people don't like doing shitty unfun things for an extra 30-60 minutes because some coder thinks that's how the game should be.

[oranges]

and which coder would that be lumi?

[BeeSting12]

and which coder would that be lumi?

certainly not the one who made the PR...

[Oldman Robustin]

This outcome shouldn't have been shocking to anyone paying attention.

[oranges]

and which coder would that be lumi?

certainly not the one who made the PR...

In response to a policy subforum thread with multiple points of view

[Luke Cox]

This kind of shit is why everyone thinks that coderbus is cancer

[oranges]

From anyone else that would be almost an insult, but from you it's more of a compliment

[lumipharon]

and which coder would that be lumi?

certainly not the one who made the PR...

In response to a policy subforum thread with multiple points of view

There is a difference between thinking the shuttle gets called too early sometimes for the round to properly develop (which plenty of people can and do agree with) and making a pr that simply removes player choice and forces people into being the bitch to some antags they have no hope of defeating/butt fucked station situation or whatever, then (in a hilarious parallel to "we can rebuild") say "we can fix it!" when everyone gets ass mangled about how terrible the PR is.

[InsaneHyena]

Best feature of the last year.

[kevinz000]

Imo people need to stop wrecking the fucking round every round 20 minutes in

[Wyzack]

Who coded it?

[iamgoofball]

>A) it misses some very obvious cases of when the shuttle needs to be called, such as nuke ops

IT LITERALLY ALLOWS CALLS IF NUKE OPS ARE ON STATION

[lumipharon]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/27305

[D&B]

Food in theory, shit in practice and restrictive as all hell, not to mention only a half band aid for a gashing cut.

[Wyzack]

>Hey guys people keep ending X gametype prematurely because its not fun for them

>I know lets force them to play it

???

[Owegno]

Even better:

>I dislike this but the policy won't change, so I'll just make an automated admin to enforce a new policy to stop this thing.

[onleavedontatme]

>20 players want it and 20 players dont in the github feedback
>""""coderbus"""" arguing on both sides
>whine about coders

This is why the feedback forums are cancer

[BeeSting12]

I've seen admins recalling the shuttle if they believed we didn't put in sufficient effort to fix it. If an admin wants to do that, they can. Having a code solution is a bad idea because code does not have human discretion- Like an AI trying to be a judge. Sure the guy killed someone... but it was also in self defense. Code can't really see grey areas such as "sure, the station's at 100% integrity, but the cult has also overrun the station but there's more crew than cultists." At that point the shuttle should be called but you get memed by the code to fit the few times the shuttle is called when it shouldn't be.

[oranges]

>20 players want it and 20 players dont in the github feedback
>""""coderbus"""" arguing on both sides
>whine about coders

This is why the feedback forums are cancer

I was hoping they would come to this conclusion themselves but thanks for being explicit

[Luke Cox]

Why can't let just let players figure it out for themselves? This is a terrible solution to a non-problem.

[lumipharon]

>20 players want it and 20 players dont in the github feedback
>""""coderbus"""" arguing on both sides
>whine about coders

This is why the feedback forums are cancer

If you're referring to me, I didn't say "coders" I said coder. As in the singular person that coded the PR.

[onleavedontatme]

I did not mean you, no.

[bandit]

>A) it misses some very obvious cases of when the shuttle needs to be called, such as nuke ops

IT LITERALLY ALLOWS CALLS IF NUKE OPS ARE ON STATION

not in the round that caused me to make this thread

[Steelpoint]

If you want to encourage the crew to stay and hold the station then actually give them the tools or ability to do so instead of forcing the survivors to play a round of Hunger Games until enough people die to call evac.

Here's my alternative.

-------------------------

Firstly, for practically any game mode that is not Traitor or Extended (maybe Wizard) this system does not apply at all. Twenty two minutes is long enough for the antags to get the ball rolling that if the crew can call evac at the 22 min mark and the antags cannot stop them, then they deserve to lose.

Secondly, this system instead is preceded by a unique "Emergency Response Call" system.

Essentially, the crew cannot call evacuation until they call for a ERT to arrive. This ERT would be different than the usual admin ERT in that it is heavily biased to spawn Engineering Response Officers (1 Co, 1 Sec Officer, 1 Med Officer, 3 Eng Officers) and they only get low tier Energy Guns for self defence, at best, (energy pistol anyone?).

Once these ERT arrive, as in the ERT centcom shuttle docks with SS13, the crew have to wait ten minutes before they can attempt a shuttle call.

This encourages the crew to rebuild the station, and provides the crew a response team with the tools and ability to assist in that role, but it also still lets the crew call evacuation. But it only applys for Traitor rounds.

[Incomptinence]

I like longer rounds the "i stubbed my toe call the shuttle" (literally got them to roll with that on goon long ago) meta is not a new problem and is probably largely a symptom of mechanics.

I like that this will bring longer rounds as short rounds were causing my burn out and thumbed up the pr but as usual how valid criticism is being handled on something that by author admission needs testing and tweaks is pretty rubbish.

[iamgoofball]

>A) it misses some very obvious cases of when the shuttle needs to be called, such as nuke ops

IT LITERALLY ALLOWS CALLS IF NUKE OPS ARE ON STATION

not in the round that caused me to make this thread

That's a bug then, it explicitly checks if nuke ops have touched the station. I'll check it out.

[Screemonster]

"A problem exists"
"WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING"
*does something that's a bigger problem than the original problem*

[XDTM]

Steelpoint, gamemodes other than traitor have been balanced because they have to win before minute 25 or the shuttle ends the round. The shuttle is covering the balancing issues, and removing preventive or pointless calls exposes those issues. If your best hope of winning against cult is calling the shuttle asap, of course you'd do that in any round you could. Why fight if you can stall, run and still win?

With no pointless/preventive shuttlecalls, antags can be toned down to not be able to bullrush a victory in <30 mins, which means they can be fought more fairly, which makes staying a more fun alternative, but the virtuous cycle has to start somewhere. If they're toned down before the shuttle limitations they'll just lose due to not being able to compete with the shuttle timer.

[Steelpoint]

From my experience people don't tend to call evac just to deny Traitors their green text, they call evac when the situation has deteriorated to the point where command and security think bugging out is a good idea.

If individual Traitors don't want a early shuttle call, they should avoid doing actions that will result in a evac being called, such as killing too much of Security, destroying vital parts of the station or simply slaughtering enough people and causing enough chaos that the situation seems untenable.

[Incomptinence]

My solution has always been a blanket make fixing easier.

Like half the point of lattices is to waste mats so people don't make too many floors oh nooo. Hey pro tip some idiot makes enough floors for that to be a problem a lot of time has already passed and I have admins tell me off for getting too much paper out of paper bins before so it should be sorted a'okay.

Streamline and cheapen all aspects construction reducing steps and providing ways to place down multiples of tedious shit like wires and piping.
Maybe give some way for engineering to shove a prefab room in a pack ala mining pods to slap modular bits onto non essential areas like dorms or maint or just as needed.
It will work even better without an eat everything forever engine.

We can't fix it reliably enough for the crew to you know rely on things being fixed so they never give it a try.

After that comes round type balance but repairs are overdue for qol.

[cedarbridge]

qol.

STAHP

[Luke Cox]

Really Oranges? That's a big part of why this feature is unpopular. People feel like they're being told how to play the game, which they don't want.

[Togopal]

I dont even have to experience this in person to tell what a retarded idea it is
EDIT:

If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.

Obviously the solution to this is to force them to enjoy it rather than seeking out why it may not be enjoyable to certain roles and fixing them

CALLED IT

[onleavedontatme]

I'm going to try to spell it out even more explicitly for you since you still don't seem to get it.

A player (who has never coded, or even tried to code, so not coderbus) gave feedback on a problem their perceived with the game. Several other players said it bothered them as well.

Another member of the community (who contributes regularly holds no official title or membership in coderbus) proposed a solution on our public repository as any of the other 7 billion humans on earth is free to do.

A head admin (again not coderbus!) then tests the proposed change on the server.

And then you come into a thread saying that a change proposed by a player in response to player feedback and then put on server by the admins is evidence that coderbus is cancer and doesn't listen to people.

[DrPillzRedux]

This is overall just a fucking stupid change and ruins the fun of most people actually on station, just to let that one autist in science do his shit he does every round.

Honestly, anyone who supports this should be ashamed of themselves for implementing this kind of horse crap on tg.

[bandit]

A player (who has never coded, or even tried to code, so not coderbus) gave feedback on a problem their perceived with the game. Several other players said it bothered them as well.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... s%3Aclosed

what did he mean by this

[onleavedontatme]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=11092

I wasn't aware that Massa100 was your alt

[Luke Cox]

It was mentioned in another thread, but the shortest physically possible round length is 25 minutes before the shuttle arrives (20 minute refueling + 5 minute shuttle call on red alert), 30 minutes if we want to count the escape sequence. Realistically, shorter rounds are closer to 35 minutes, and I'd be willing to bet that the average round is ~45 minutes. Were it 10 or 15 minutes I would understand a code solution, but going to all this trouble to pad out a round for 10 minutes is just silly. If you must pad out the round for another 10 minutes, you could just make an earlier shuttle call send a shitty shuttle to disincentivize it.

[cedarbridge]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=11092

I wasn't aware that Massa100 was your alt

This explains so much.

[Yakumo_Chen]

The problem is that we need to make exploding the station in 5 minutes harder to do, since that's what ends most traitor rounds before the ball can really get rolling.

[kevinz000]

The problem is that we need to make exploding the station in 5 minutes harder to do, since that's what ends most traitor rounds before the ball can really get rolling.

i believe that's a player issue, unless we're going to remove every source of damage in the game people'll just find another method to implode everything.

[Luke Cox]

The problem is that we need to make exploding the station in 5 minutes harder to do, since that's what ends most traitor rounds before the ball can really get rolling.

Precisely this. All this change does is force people to stand around while everything burns around them and the antags have essentially won. Granted, we should also consider whether players think that things spiraling so quickly is even a problem. We should run a player poll on round length, or else this will never move past "in my opinion"

[FantasticFwoosh]

It's broken versus xenomorphs which keep the hosts alive for prolonged periods of time without actually killing them, i've been in a number of xeno rounds where the shuttle has been auto recalled by command trying to call to just get out of here in a total panic constantly pressing the button, then every hunter and their uncle swoops in on the console caller.

It is also restrictive in such a arrangement that you kill the station in a priority order of top to bottom, as without any command staff to call, the normal low tier staff cannot call by themselves at all and are at the mercy of antags/shitty circumstance. Usually command calls when a portion of the lower down staff have been killed, and while it may have been nobody important, it usually creates a negative enviroment for the crew.

> Who's right is it not least robustin's to judge what is and what isn't a emergency? Context is important, but we already put in place a timer already on how soon you could call, and often i've seen what seems to be admins have to override the auto-recalls themselves because they too think its too shitty a emergency because it's getting blocked really hard.

- Coders should stop making such flat out antagonists then if you don't want the station to go to hell in 5 minutes and warrant people calling because they don't have the tools/personnel or enthusiasm to kill it (blob is very lacking on enthusiasm to kill because losses can't be replaced when blobbernauts eat ghosts)

[DiamondSentinel]

I like longer rounds the "i stubbed my toe call the shuttle" (literally got them to roll with that on goon long ago) meta is not a new problem and is probably largely a symptom of mechanics.

I like that this will bring longer rounds as short rounds were causing my burn out and thumbed up the pr but as usual how valid criticism is being handled on something that by author admission needs testing and tweaks is pretty rubbish.

There is a better solution for it than this, though, and I've suggested it multiple times during post-game and ooc discussion.

If the captain actually suffered some sort of punishment for summoning the shuttle when "ouch I stubbed my toe" or "2 people have died in 22 minutes and I'm scared" (really anything less than large-scale destruction of the station), then it would cut down on those incidents. The lore already states that they get executed if they abandon the station , so maybe disallow them from being captain or a head for a couple rounds or something. Of course, there should be some sort of condition that this restriction wouldn't apply (and maybe just disallow them from being captain for a round or something), and of course it wouldn't apply if cap was already dead, but it'd likely fix the issue.

[kevinz000]

>hardcoded ways to banbait
no