Supermatter not reporting to common until emergency point

[kevinz000]

Right instead of just making a revert PR in the hopes it goes through, lets discuss:
Recently I've seen a huge increase in supermatter delaminations.
Oftentimes no one will know it's destabilizing until the emergency point, at which point it'll often be too late to rush to save it.
Yes, I know that "engineers should do their jobs", but over the past one-two days of observation they haven't been doing that and round after round has been reset at the 30 minute mark due to the supermatter delaminating and no one noticing until it's too late.

Also, in the majority of cases, when it's hit 70% you won't even have time to get to engineering and into the engine room on some maps before it explodes unless you're right next to it, and even then, it's often too far gone.

[ShadowDimentio]

Good. The engine is supposed to be extremely dangerous and unstable, the only one physically able to get to the engine in time to save it should be engineers in the department or the AI.

[Steelpoint]

I would like to know, code wise, when the SM starts reporting its about to blow.

I have noticed that it tends to only start reporting when it's usually too late to do anything about it.

[kevinz000]

Good. The engine is supposed to be extremely dangerous and unstable, the only one physically able to get to the engine in time to save it should be engineers in the department or the AI.

The problem is they don't do that, nonantag or antag, and I don't feel it's helping the game in any capacity to not let anyone else find out unless someone on engi channel tells everyone (And they're often brushed off unless it's someone with a loudmode headset, a head of staff, or announce consoles/comms consoles!) and it's not fun to have the engine delaminate every round from engineer incompetence or maliciousness.

[kevinz000]

I would like to know, code wise, when the SM starts reporting its about to blow.

I have noticed that it tends to only start reporting when it's usually too late to do anything about it.

Only on common at emergency point which is I believe 70%.
As in, emergency point, it's probably too late to save it unless you already started (I've saved it from emergency point without doing anything before it exactly once and that's someone with actual knowledge of how the mechanics work, now just imagine the average player trying to figure this out within 30 seconds =|)

[ShadowDimentio]

Good. The engine is supposed to be extremely dangerous and unstable, the only one physically able to get to the engine in time to save it should be engineers in the department or the AI.

The problem is they don't do that, nonantag or antag, and I don't feel it's helping the game in any capacity to not let anyone else find out unless someone on engi channel tells everyone (And they're often brushed off unless it's someone with a loudmode headset, a head of staff, or announce consoles/comms consoles!) and it's not fun to have the engine delaminate every round from engineer incompetence or maliciousness.

>Engineer incompetence

I blame the people who pushed for a totally new engine after everyone had learned and gotten used to the old engines. If the supermatter started delamating five feet from me I wouldn't have a clue on what to do 'cause I refuse to learn the new engine.

Anyways, solution to the comms thing is to make it report the levels above 50% on the engi channel, and above 75% over the regular channel. If the engineers are paying attention they'll have time to fix it, otherwise the crew may have time to jump in and barely fix it or get the fuck away from engi as it explodes.

[Steelpoint]

ShadowDimentio has a good point.

Many people simply don't understand how the SM functions as a engine let alone how to cool it down or stop it from exploding. Even I don't know and I consider myself to be very knowledgeable on most SS13 in game systems.

In the uncommon instances I am Captain and I hear the SM is going to explode, unless its early on or there are engineers fixing it, I just tell everyone to evacuate from engineering and to start setting up the Solar arrays.

[oranges]

you just dump freon you meme it's childs play

[Screemonster]

I refuse to learn

stopped reading right here tbqh

[CPTANT]

you just dump freon you meme it's childs play

Yeah just dump freon or nitrogen into it.

But usually someone fucked up the pumps, so check if the air alarm is set to draft, all the pumps have maximum output and the gas filters don't filter out nitrogen and freon but do filter plasma, CO2 and oxygen.

>Engineer incompetence

I blame the people who pushed for a totally new engine after everyone had learned and gotten used to the old engines. If the supermatter started delamating five feet from me I wouldn't have a clue on what to do 'cause I refuse to learn the new engine.

Scrub.

[Lazengann]

Just do solars

[CPTANT]

It's good now. destroying the supermatter was almost impossible while it was reported on common.

If you AND sabotage the engine AND kill most of engineering AND the captain AND the AI AND nobody responds in the time it is announced on common then MAYBE the engine deserves to be loose.

[oranges]

It's good now. destroying the supermatter was almost impossible to destroy while it was reported on common.

If you AND sabotage the engine AND kill most of engineering AND the captain AND the AI AND nobody responds in the time it is announced on common then MAYBE the engine deserves to be loose.

[lzimann]

Play engineering or a job that has access to engineering channel(atmos/captain/AI) and there you go, all your problems with this are solved.
It was a good change overall, it doesn't make sense announcing to common every thing a SM shard does.

[D&B]

Can you shut the fuck up about the 30 minute round meme when in actual practice rounds last longer than that and even robustin posted a chart showing the average is higher.

[Qbopper]

I made the PR and kevinz has been vocal about his dislike about it since the start, so let me lay down why I made it. We all saw robustin's fancy chart, but be that as it may the "SM IS ABOUT TO GO CALL IT!!!!" shit is annoying. Putting the messages on engineering makes sense as only engineers should have to worry about the SM until it's reached a point the crew needs to worry. The main complaints I see are:

• If the SM is going to blow, I can't see the radio messages until it's too late because I'm not an engineer, how am I supposed to let myself in to fix it now?
• If the SM is going to blow, the crew doesn't have enough advanced warning, and that was one of the main reasons we switched to using the SM.
• If there's no captain, AI, or engineers, what do you do?

In order:

• I don't really care about this one. "Let the engineers do their job" is a valid retort - if people are fucking it up and not reading the guide, that's on them, and if you think it's ABSOLUTELY necessary to law 2 in as a non engineer instead of letting engineer players learn, that's a little bit ridiculous imo
• This is partially due to how the SM can either build up % slowly or start gaining damage in leaps and bounds, and this is a little unintentional, but the "SHIT IS ABOUT TO GO" message over common is enough for the crew, imo. If no one did anything about the messages over engineering, again, that's on therm. Which leads into the third point...
• If a non-engineer lets themselves in to set up the SM at roundstart, you could pretty easily grab a headset from the lockers and keep an eye on it.

I just don't really think most of the complaints are significant enough to warrant removal. I'm 100% open to my PRs getting scrapped if they don't work, that's fine, but these complaints really don't strike me as a major issue. It's a little hard to take "this PR means I can't powergame as effectively" seriously, especially when it's just as easy to powergame around it (grab the headset before you leave).

Now, people might take issue with the % at which the messages go to common, and that's something I'm willing to tweak. The way the SM sends messages right now would need to be redone, but it wouldn't be too much work, I believe.

I would like to know, code wise, when the SM starts reporting its about to blow.

I have noticed that it tends to only start reporting when it's usually too late to do anything about it.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... er.dm#L340

the relevant code:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

var/damage = 0
var/damage_archived = 0
var/safe_alert = "Crystalline hyperstructure returning to safe operating levels."
var/warning_point = 50
var/warning_alert = "Danger! Crystal hyperstructure instability!"
var/damage_penalty_point = 550
var/emergency_point = 700
var/emergency_alert = "CRYSTAL DELAMINATION IMMINENT."
var/explosion_point = 900

if(damage > warning_point) // while the core is still damaged and it's still worth noting its status
		if((REALTIMEOFDAY - lastwarning) / 10 >= WARNING_DELAY)
			var/stability = num2text(round((damage / explosion_point) * 100))

			if(damage > emergency_point)
				radio.talk_into(src, "[emergency_alert] Instability: [stability]%", common_channel, get_spans(), get_default_language())
				lastwarning = REALTIMEOFDAY
				if(!has_reached_emergency)
					investigate_log("has reached the emergency point for the first time.", "supermatter")
					message_admins("[src] has reached the emergency point [ADMIN_JMP(src)].")
					has_reached_emergency = 1
			else if(damage >= damage_archived) // The damage is still going up
				radio.talk_into(src, "[warning_alert] Instability: [stability]%", engineering_channel, get_spans(), get_default_language())
				lastwarning = REALTIMEOFDAY - (WARNING_DELAY * 5)

			else                                                 // Phew, we're safe
				radio.talk_into(src, "[safe_alert] Instability: [stability]%", engineering_channel, get_spans(), get_default_language())
				lastwarning = REALTIMEOFDAY

			if(power > POWER_PENALTY_THRESHOLD)
				radio.talk_into(src, "Warning: Hyperstructure has reached dangerous power level.", engineering_channel, get_spans(), get_default_language())
				if(powerloss_inhibitor < 0.5)
					radio.talk_into(src, "DANGER: CHARGE INERTIA CHAIN REACTION IN PROGRESS.", engineering_channel, get_spans(), get_default_language())

			if(combined_gas > MOLE_PENALTY_THRESHOLD)
radio.talk_into(src, "Warning: Critical coolant mass reached.", engineering_channel, get_spans(), get_default_language())

The points of damage don't directly correlate to percentages on the radio messages (see: the var/stability declaration), so it would require tweaking the values to change when/which messages appear.

Surely it should be reported on common only when it's all gone to pot to warn the crew?

that's what the PR as is does

If the supermatter started delamating five feet from me I wouldn't have a clue on what to do 'cause I refuse to learn the new engine.

>I refuse to learn the new thing
>don't blame me for not knowing how the new thing works

this is why i have you on ignore

I would like to know, code wise, when the SM starts reporting its about to blow.

I have noticed that it tends to only start reporting when it's usually too late to do anything about it.

Only on common at emergency point which is I believe 70%.
As in, emergency point, it's probably too late to save it unless you already started (I've saved it from emergency point without doing anything before it exactly once and that's someone with actual knowledge of how the mechanics work, now just imagine the average player trying to figure this out within 30 seconds =|)

The idea isn't "SM is about to blow, get in there and fix it crew", the idea is "the engineers have fucked up and it's about to blow, run away".

Right instead of just making a revert PR in the hopes it goes through, lets discuss:
Recently I've seen a huge increase in supermatter delaminations.
Oftentimes no one will know it's destabilizing until the emergency point, at which point it'll often be too late to rush to save it.
Yes, I know that "engineers should do their jobs", but over the past one-two days of observation they haven't been doing that and round after round has been reset at the 30 minute mark due to the supermatter delaminating and no one noticing until it's too late.

Also, in the majority of cases, when it's hit 70% you won't even have time to get to engineering and into the engine room on some maps before it explodes unless you're right next to it, and even then, it's often too far gone.

Until you can give me stats proving that this has caused the SM to delaminate more often and caused more early calls, I'm not really inclined to believe this, and making a revert PR over something that has been in for a day that you personally don't like seems like a bit of an overreaction

[Screemonster]

It's still more warning than the crew ever got about a singuloose

[Qbopper]

It's still more warning than the crew ever got about a singuloose

yeah this is what I was trying to say

"oh shit sing is about to blow run the fuck away" is more than this, which happens every time

>SING IS LOOSE
>ai pls confirm
>is that true
>CALL IT
>i don't believe him
>I BELIEVE HIM NOW

[Steelpoint]

Yeah I'm fine with the current system.

Engineers get a lot of warning that the SM is getting unstable, a competent Captain and tune into engi comms so he could warn the crew or act himself, and the SM warns the crew at a point where it at least gives enough warning to not only stay away from Engineering but to prepare for the main power source to go offline.

[ohnopigeons]

The problem with the SM engine is that it's based on atmos and like 90% of players don't understand how atmos and atmos pipes work. So, surpise, most people don't conceptually understand how to unfuck a plasma-to-distro sabotage, let alone the SM engine. For people who understand atmos (admins, most people in this thread) the SM seems like a fairly simple engine but you all have forgotten the steep learning curve that the average player has with atmos.

[Qbopper]

The problem with the SM engine is that it's based on atmos and like 90% of players don't understand how atmos and atmos pipes work. So, surpise, most people don't conceptually understand how to unfuck a plasma-to-distro sabotage, let alone the SM engine. For people who understand atmos (admins, most people in this thread) the SM seems like a fairly simple engine but you all have forgotten the steep learning curve that the average player has with atmos.

I'm not very well versed in atmos or the SM, actually - you make a good point and you're not wrong

that being said it's very frustrating (to me) that some people would rather waltz in and fix the problem themselves than trying to teach new players concepts necessary for stuff liek this

[cedarbridge]

The problem with the SM engine is that it's based on atmos and like 90% of players don't understand how atmos and atmos pipes work. So, surpise, most people don't conceptually understand how to unfuck a plasma-to-distro sabotage, let alone the SM engine. For people who understand atmos (admins, most people in this thread) the SM seems like a fairly simple engine but you all have forgotten the steep learning curve that the average player has with atmos.

So you're saying that SS13 is a game with some complexity that must be learned to properly do the day-to-day operations? Man, really makes you think.

[Anonmare]

I'd say have it report on the 50% instability mark but I prefer it not talking on common.

[kevinz000]

right is supermatter stats tracked?

[cedarbridge]

Just thought I'd point out that we got here after several months of people calling the SM an un-sabotageable hugbox

[Qbopper]

kevinz is trying to set up stat tracking for when the SM delaminates which is fine by me, if i get hard data then I'll take a look at it

I don't think it really matters, because if an engineer sees the messages and fails to fix the SM (before it goes to emergency) that isn't really a problem with my PR, but I won't turn down proper data

[cedarbridge]

I don't see the problem with this at all though. The only complaints I've heard is

1) Engineers don't know how to fix the engine if it breaks but somehow know how to break it.
2) Command doesn't know how to fix the engine.
3) 1 and 2 refuse to learn how to fix the engine.

These are player problems. If you want to enforce players not doing dumb things in their departments, maybe the department assigned sec officer should be getting involved? Maybe the AI should involve itself in the engine as well since it has primary access to every function apart from ID locked emitters and manually wrenching cans and it can still handle cans if it has a borg that knows its ass from its elbow.

[ohnopigeons]

No, I'm saying that the SM engine is inappropriate in its current role given the atmos-skill of the average playerbase and associated default settings and designs.

When players ready up or join a game, if they want to work and maintain the station's systems, they are given two (non-head) options: Station Engineer and Atmospheric Technician. The existence of the atmos tech job implies that its responsibilities and duties are heavily focused on atmos systems, whereas for the generic engineer it is implied they do not need to worry as much about atmos. Players, both new and old, who sign up as atmos tech are given a huge room with all the tools readily available to work, play, and learn with atmos systems. In contrast, players who sign up as station engineer are expected to set up and maintain an atmos-based engine with many moving parts as their primary responsbility, with failure resulting in the deletion of their entire department and, most likely, their deaths. They are also not given access to the giant atmos room, filled with the many various gases that can interact with the SM. For the new and cluless, they are told to "just read the wiki lol". Surprise, some of these players mess up a step in the multi-step process which results in the SM blowing. For those who are capable enough to follow instructions, if the SM is ever sabotaged in a non-obvious way by an antag, these players will have no knowledge of fixing it because a wiki can not cover every possible mode of failure, especially not with a system comprising of many interacting parts.

"But this is all part of the gameplay" you might say. And if you count the SM blowing up frequently across all the rounds as part of valid, desirable gameplay, you're right. If not, you are a hypocrite. Personally I've stopped caring if the SM blows every round if I'm not a part of engineering. I'm also not a part of engineering very often anymore either.

But obviously, from this thread, apprently people do care about the SM engine blowing up frequently, despite not even being a part of engineering, given the topic. The reason why reporting SM instability over common works better than reporting SM instability over engineering is so that atmos-capable players who are not part of engineering may then moonlight-fix the SM before continuing with their non-engineering related jobs and antics. Ths issue I have with this is the fact that the SM engine requires moonlighting to function as players desire it to (i.e. not delaminating).

[CPTANT]

Is it seriously so hard to hook up a nitrogen canister to the engine and make sure the air alarm is set to draft?

[ohnopigeons]

Is it seriously so hard to (set up and maintain the SM engine)

Given the frequency of delaminations, apparently yes.

[bman]

an engine is never too far gone, you just have to know what you're doing

i've saved a 78% delaminated SM before

[bman]

keyword [know what you're doing]

many players dont and will not understand such a complex system, and it's retarded that this was known when SM was added.

but this is a player problem!!!11111 no you dumbfuck this system is shit and nobody wants to learn it because it is not engaging, the moment you look at a jungle of pipes you immediately want to walk back and run out of engi.

and take care that the reason SM was added was because "it's safer than singulo roundstart looses" well you just replaced singulo roundstart looses with roundstart SM explosions congrats

[cedarbridge]

but this is a player problem!!!11111 no you dumbfuck this system is shit and nobody wants to learn it because it is not engaging, the moment you look at a jungle of pipes you immediately want to walk back and run out of engie

That's literally the definition of a player problem. "I can't be bothered to learn how the engine works so I'm not going to bother." is not a code problem. Its not a problem with a feature. Its a product of us having a lazy engine system for ages and a culture built where engineers could set it up in 3 seconds and then fuck off to tide with a hardsuit and engie gear.

And it is 100% safer than the singulo and if you argue otherwise you're an idiot. If the SM starts to fail, it can be fixed. It requires you to do about 4 seconds of wiki reading to understand how, even with zero understanding of atmos. If the singulo was started without a containment, that's it, the engine's toast and so is probably half the station. Why is this even an argument? You're literally arguing that the hugbox engine isn't a big enough hugbox.

[ohnopigeons]

Its a product of us having a lazy engine system for ages and a culture built where engineers could set it up in 3 seconds and then fuck off to tide with a hardsuit and engie gear.

The SM has a shorter set up time than the singulo ever did.

If the SM starts to fail, it can be fixed. It requires you to do about 4 seconds of wiki reading to understand how, even with zero understanding of atmos.

This is objectively wrong. The wiki lets you set it up but it doesn't impart understanding. And understanding is absolutely crucial to fixing the SM.

If the singulo was started without a containment, that's it, the engine's toast and so is probably half the station.

So don't start up the engine without containment? This is a far simpler concept than the ones that govern what delaminates the SM.

[cedarbridge]

If the singulo was started without a containment, that's it, the engine's toast and so is probably half the station.

So don't start up the engine without containment? This is a far simpler concept than the ones that govern what delaminates the SM.

Entirely missing the point. I'll illustrate this for you.

SM starts to approach delamination = station isn't instantly toast and this can be fixed

Asshole Mc Antag turned on the PA without a containment field going = literally the only options to stop this are max caps and Bags of Holding. The first is tough to pull off successfully and the second requires end-tier R&D that you will never have early enough to stop a roundstart singulo.

So yes, by definition, one can be fixed, the other cannot be fixed.

This whole thread is just a procession of "I want to engineering but I can't be assed to figure out how pipes work."

[Anonmare]

All you need to know how to fix the SM is to keep it cool, keep the vents at ~5000kPA External, scrubbers on syphon and CO2 to go and stay go.

Keep the gas cool, if the SM is on fire and the gas being syphoned out is too hot for space to cool by itself, open up the emergency cooling with the freezers (most maps have the area) and keep the bypass on - you want to clear the pipes so they're not being choked (they have a pressure limit of 4,500kPA), otherwise they'll get clogged and not cycle fast enough.

Volume pumps aren't necessary but they're more efficient at moving large volumes of gas and can handle pressure buildup better than regular pumps.

I highly recommend using N2O over N2, N2O ups the SM's heat resistance and gives you more time to fix it. N2 will lower its temperature and reduce waste gas production from the SM but you lose out on power efficiency.

I personally use an N2O/Oxygen set-up. About 66% N2O and 33% O2

[ohnopigeons]

And you're missing my point. A loose singularity is unfixable, sure, but the threshold to failure is fairly high. This is compounded by the fact that the singularity is really simple game-mechanically and easy to understand. I've seen engineers help other engineers by explaining and teaching the Singulo engine to new engineers ICly. There's literally only the following interacting parts: emitters(4), field generators(8), the PA, and collectors
Versus for the SM: siphons(3), vents(3), air control alarm, gas pumps(12)(each doing something different), gas filters(5), connector ports(4), cooling loop, freezers, emitters(3), collectors. But you are right, if the SM should start failing, the instability announcements prompt interventions and the problem is indeed, fixable.

...is what I'd like to say but I've had experiences otherwise.
Asshole Mc Antag CE throws a metal foam grenade in the SM room round-start, with the SM chamber airlocks open and exposed to the ensuing metal foam. The rest of the engineering team lazily reacts to the metal foam. Then, a minute later, the SM starts delaminating insanely fast (from emitters). The SM room is still filled with metal foam so the engineers aren't capable of doing anything, meanwhile I, as the AI, couldn't deal with the issue either as the metal foam was blocking my cameras (with the rest cut). The SM delaminates literally less than a minute later, and poof, the entire engineering department is gone. So, 3 minutes into the round, the SM blew up along with the rest of the engineering department killing half of the engineers. This is and was not fixable, and it happened with the SM engine.

To give you an idea of how fast it delaminated, I reproduced the conditions in a test game.

Spoiler:

(F) [Common] Supermatter crystal beeps, "Danger! Crystal hyperstructure instability! Instability: 5%"
Poly looks in the Zippo lighter's direction and takes flight.
The grey baby slime (955) lights up for a bit, then stops.
The monkey (435) scratches.
The monkey (511) scratches.
Poly flutters its wings.
Runtime wags its tail.
Poly flutters its wings.
The monkey (498) rolls.
Paperwork yawns.
The monkey (413) scratches.
(F) [Common] Supermatter crystal beeps, "Danger! Crystal hyperstructure instability! Instability: 26%"
The monkey (423) waves her tail.
The monkey (511) waves her tail.
The monkey (238) rolls.
The monkey (363) scratches.
Runtime looks alert.
The mouse squeeks.
Pegwing stops moving...
Runtime walks around.
(F) [Common] Supermatter crystal beeps, "Danger! Crystal hyperstructure instability! Instability: 70%"
Poly looks in the chief engineer's rubber stamp's direction and takes flight.
The flux wave anomaly is hit by an emitter beam!
The monkey (13) jumps!
You feel reality distort for a moment...
ADMIN LOG: Explosion with size (16.2062, 34.4123, 36.4123, 36.4123) in area: Supermatter Engine (113,66,1) (JMP)

As for your example, you're assuming ZERO other engineers are working on the Singularity that could easily identify and intervene in such an obvious sabotage attempt (as well as a negligent AI).

So if you want to argue with freak edge-cases of the singularity engine, here's one for the SM engine.

[Qbopper]

snip

helpful post but not on topic - maybe add some of that to the wiki page? I dunno

keyword [know what you're doing]

many players dont and will not understand such a complex system, and it's retarded that this was known when SM was added.

I find it hard to believe that people playing SS13 can't learn a complex system

but this is a player problem!!!11111 no you dumbfuck this system is shit and nobody wants to learn it because it is not engaging, the moment you look at a jungle of pipes you immediately want to walk back and run out of engi.

bolded the part that is the player problem - that doesn't make what you're saying untrue but that is straight up a player problem, even if it's an understandable one (and some would disagree with you on it, I dunno)

and take care that the reason SM was added was because "it's safer than singulo roundstart looses" well you just replaced singulo roundstart looses with roundstart SM explosions congrats

not really why it was added at all if you go to the thread where the concept was proposed in the first place

but this is a player problem!!!11111 no you dumbfuck this system is shit and nobody wants to learn it because it is not engaging, the moment you look at a jungle of pipes you immediately want to walk back and run out of engie

That's literally the definition of a player problem. "I can't be bothered to learn how the engine works so I'm not going to bother." is not a code problem. Its not a problem with a feature. Its a product of us having a lazy engine system for ages and a culture built where engineers could set it up in 3 seconds and then fuck off to tide with a hardsuit and engie gear.

And it is 100% safer than the singulo and if you argue otherwise you're an idiot. If the SM starts to fail, it can be fixed. It requires you to do about 4 seconds of wiki reading to understand how, even with zero understanding of atmos. If the singulo was started without a containment, that's it, the engine's toast and so is probably half the station. Why is this even an argument? You're literally arguing that the hugbox engine isn't a big enough hugbox.

It's initially a lot more intimidating to someone who doesn't know how it works, though - I prefer the SM to sing/tesla ez mode but he's not wrong to say that

The only thing that's stopped me so far is just, hey it's new and scary and I want my singularity (or tesla, they're pretty much the same) I already know how to set up back, laziness and everyone else sets it up for me. I'll look around in engineering next chance to see if there's a little book or piece of paper detailing what to do in simplest form and then go onto the wiki to see about advanced setups/what I can consider modifying whilst hoping the wiki doesn't tell me there is one and only one perfect setup that I cannot fault.

this seems to be the main problem right now - people are either aggressively lazy/refuse like shadow or they're like you where there's a fear of fucking up + others do it anyways

I mean that's what it looks like to me, I could be wrong

So if you want to argue with freak edge-cases of the singularity engine, here's one for the SM engine.

everyone needs to stop arguing with edge cases because who gives a shit

[cedarbridge]

And you're missing my point. A loose singularity is unfixable, sure, but the threshold to failure is fairly high.

So if you want to argue with freak edge-cases of the singularity engine, here's one for the SM engine.

You literally push a button. That's your threshold to failure. This is proven by the rash of roundstart singuloose we had that brought about the engine changes in the first place. This is historical fact. Its not a matter of edge cases. Its not some fanciful story that happens because a specific series of events happened and negligence occured. This is "it happened, that's what we don't start with that engine anymore."

[CPTANT]

The idiots guide to fixing the supermatter:


To get the engine safe again all bad gasses must fuck off and only good gasses remain and they should be cooled.

Nitrogen, Freon, N2O: GOOD

oxygen, plasma and CO2: BAD

So:

0. Turn off the emitters.
1. hook up a nitrogen cannister to the loop
2. turn on the pump from the cannister to the loop.
3. make sure the supermatter chamber air alarm is set to draft.
4. make sure the gas filters are set to filter bad gasses and don''t filter good gasses.
5. make sure the gas is cooled by either passing through the space loop and/or the coolers.

[ohnopigeons]

For an engine that's literally been run for 5+ years, a sudden rash of roundstart singuloose means that the problem is inherent with the engine? What makes SM delaminations a player problem but not singulooses?

[Qbopper]

For an engine that's literally been run for 5+ years, a sudden rash of roundstart singuloose means that the problem is inherent with the engine? What makes SM delaminations a player problem but not singulooses?

if you read the thread proposing replacing it with the SM the consensus seems to be more "sing and tesla are too low effort and don't add anything to the round", not "sing and tesla are let loose right away too much"

you can argue that the SM is no better than the sign for effort/whatever but that's not the point I'm trying to make please don't start an argument with me

[oranges]

We're not changing the engine, this is entirely an issue for the players to get over.

[CPTANT]

For an engine that's literally been run for 5+ years, a sudden rash of roundstart singuloose means that the problem is inherent with the engine? What makes SM delaminations a player problem but not singulooses?

supermatter is simply safer than the sing/tesla. No amount of whining is going to change that.

We have people in this thread stating they outright refuse to learn the supermatter because it "isn't the sing".

Now that IS a player problem.

[ohnopigeons]

No, you don't have people stating they refuse to learn the supermatter, you have ShadowDimentio stating they refuse to learn the supermatter. That's not a player problem that's a ShadowDimentio problem.

Anyways, yes, the supermatter IS safer than the sing/tesla. Do you know why? It's because if the SM fails it ONLY blows up engineering. The rest of the station is mostly unaffected. And solars has always been a viable power source. THAT'S why it's safer, not because of atmos memes or other SM mechanics.

Let's transition back to thread topic. Since only engineering is affected by a delaminated Supermatter, why should anyone outside engineering care? Answer: They shouldn't. In fact, except for a Delamination Imminent warning (wtih no information about the instability percentage), there should be zero messages about the supermatter on Common channel. The success of the Supermatter is that its operations and its failure is localized to the engineering department.

[oranges]

Well it depends on how it was running before, depending on the gases present it might spawn a tesla, or a singularity or just explode.

It's actually quite dangerous, but you have to know how to unlock those dangers, which I think helps a lot in reducing the low effort releases.

[ohnopigeons]

If the stars align and you add just the right amount of salt and sugar, it's theoretically possible to release a singu/tesla

Yes okay orange fruit thank you for your contribution

[Anonmare]

So what's the issue then?

[oranges]

If the stars align and you add just the right amount of salt and sugar, it's theoretically possible to release a singu/tesla

Yes okay orange fruit thank you for your contribution

It's actually quite easy, but I know it must be hard for you with your developmental disabilities related to your mother drinking during preganancy

[ohnopigeons]

what's the tldr?

Fact: The SM frequently delaminates
Viewpoint A: The SM frequently delaminating is bad, not just for engineering but for all the players on the station and the game, so solutions are needed to make this less likely (this is the premise of this thread)
Viewpoint B: Frequent SM delaminations are a player problem, therefore engineering frequently turning into a giant hole to space is an acceptable, if not desirable, outcome and part of the game

Under viewpoint A: Frequent delaminations are a result of the inherent atmos-nature of the engine mechanics and not-atmos-tech playerbase inability to operate atmos. Therefore, for station engineers, the main engine should not be the SM, and should be replaced by something else entirely if not the singulo/tesla. The topic suggestion works but is bad from a game design standpoint because it relies on moonlighting from not-engineers for the engineering engine to operate correctly.
Under viewpoint B: Just come to terms with the SM delaminating frequently and tell anyone who don't like the SM delaminating to get over it. The topic suggestion is not needed in the first place, and is still bad for the aforementioned reasons.