Kudzu

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Fri May 19, 2017 3:14 am #296086

So can we do something about this already? It can single-handedly DESTROY the station. It's LUDICROUSLY powerful, LUDICROUSLY fast expanding, goes through walls, into space, grabs and kills people in SECONDS, spawns monsters, drains oxygen, is borderline indestructible sometimes, is impassable, can overtake the station in about 5 minutes--

Please? I've seen so many rounds just be COMPLETELY ENDED by these things, and there's NOTHING anyone can do once it gets going.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Fri May 19, 2017 3:18 am #296088

is CAPITALIZING words LIKE THIS the new GOOFBALL 200 SIZE text

but yeah it is a bit strong

Post by **oranges** » Fri May 19, 2017 3:56 am #296108

Use big font is the new GOOF SIZE 200

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Fri May 19, 2017 3:59 am #296110

>Let Pete loose against kudzu
>Pete walks into it and dies instantly
Made me think.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri May 19, 2017 4:04 am #296111

Kudzu got loose like an hour and a half or so ago on basil
and I del-all'd it
I deleted over 24,000 instances of kudzu
and it didn't actually get it all, the kudzu survived the mass deletion
I did it again ~15-20 seconds later and deleted ANOTHER 20,000 instances

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri May 19, 2017 4:04 am #296113

afterwards the station was quite literally flattened, an incredible amount of walls just gone like that

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Fri May 19, 2017 4:05 am #296114

>PR tried to remove stupid shit from botany
>Got closed

Makes you go hmm

ShadowDimentio · Fri May 19, 2017 4:12 am

How about we stop padding the corners of the station?

Every department has apocalyptic shit they can produce with some effort. Engi has the engine, medbay has viro, cargo has null crates, sci has bombs, etc.

We should be encouraging usage of these things since they're more fun than mindless murderbone which is the default for traitors with nothing better to do instead of removing them.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Fri May 19, 2017 4:33 am #296121

ShadowDimentio wrote:How about we stop padding the corners of the station?

Every department has apocalyptic shit they can produce with some effort. Engi has the engine, medbay has viro, cargo has null crates, sci has bombs, etc.

We should be encouraging usage of these things since they're more fun than mindless murderbone which is the default for traitors with nothing better to do instead of removing them.

Kudzu fucking up the station is not fun though?

At least with someone with a desword I can try my luck and disarm spam them or some shit, kudzu spreads too fast and dicks you too hard.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri May 19, 2017 9:58 am #296206

Kudzu should remain a deadly round ender but it mutates too fast, it should take some time and risk to make it that deadly. Like, minutes of risking your life hacking away at it until it has deadly enough mutations to unleash on the station.

This would make it more balanced, as once you get the aggressive spreading trait it suddenly becomes extremely high risk to try to mutate it any further.

I'm pretty sure I unleashed the kudzu that got this thread made by the way. Right now you don't need to put any work in to make it deadly as it will mutate into a deadly variety before anyone even sees the vines.

Toroic · Post by **Toroic** » Fri May 19, 2017 1:04 pm #296228

Lazengann wrote:Kudzu should remain a deadly round ender but it mutates too fast, it should take some time and risk to make it that deadly. Like, minutes of risking your life hacking away at it until it has deadly enough mutations to unleash on the station.

This would make it more balanced, as once you get the aggressive spreading trait it suddenly becomes extremely high risk to try to mutate it any further.

I'm pretty sure I unleashed the kudzu that got this thread made by the way. Right now you don't need to put any work in to make it deadly as it will mutate into a deadly variety before anyone even sees the vines.

Maybe potency can affect the types of mutations available? Low potency gives neutral/benign mutations and you need high potency for the more dangerous and destructive ones?

Right now I think you can devastate the station with easily made 50 potency kudzu.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Fri May 19, 2017 3:50 pm #296287

But you can get 100 potency kudzu in two minutes with no effort at all. Just ask chemistry for mutagen.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri May 19, 2017 3:55 pm #296288

Or if you don't hate yourself, saltpetre

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri May 19, 2017 4:00 pm #296290

Lol it's a mekhi whines about botany episode
Just rework kudzu like I've been saying but not actually doing for.the last few months.

Toroic · Post by **Toroic** » Fri May 19, 2017 5:20 pm #296298

ShadowDimentio wrote:How about we stop padding the corners of the station?

Every department has apocalyptic shit they can produce with some effort. Engi has the engine, medbay has viro, cargo has null crates, sci has bombs, etc.

We should be encouraging usage of these things since they're more fun than mindless murderbone which is the default for traitors with nothing better to do instead of removing them.

I don't think you realize how dangerous botany weapons already can be. Mass killer tomatoes are already shuttle-calling threat, and initropil bees will ruin your day. Botany can also mass produce explosives and if they get gaseous decomposition smoke bombs of death as well.

Kudzu is a lot more work to mutate helpfully than to mutate destructively.

ShadowDimentio · Fri May 19, 2017 5:22 pm

Oh I know, but building up a robust arsenal of botany weapons takes a decent amount of time and know-how. It's pretty fairly balanced in that regard.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 19, 2017 5:48 pm #296312

>deleting over 24,000 instances of kudzu and it's still not all of it
>balanced

even bombs don't do anywhere close to that much shit

ShadowDimentio · Fri May 19, 2017 5:48 pm

Rebalance it then, it's as simple as tweaking a few numbers.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri May 19, 2017 5:58 pm #296318

I don't know if you just skipped my posts or something but kudzu is literally, in the literal sense of the term and not as a meme, broken

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri May 19, 2017 6:00 pm #296319

Do what I said idiots all hydroponics complaints should be directed to me

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Fri May 19, 2017 6:04 pm #296320

Kudzu isnt even fun to fight against. Oh and one time I saw a guy walk onto a block of kudzu for one second and I had to drag him out with no limbs and in deep critical. Broken as fuck and takes little effort to make, needs to be removed/reworked.

ShadowDimentio · Fri May 19, 2017 6:09 pm

Just remove the stupid kudzu flavorings and incorporate the less dumb ones into regular kudzu.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri May 19, 2017 6:17 pm #296331

I like kudzu more than blobs

Toroic · Post by **Toroic** » Fri May 19, 2017 10:03 pm #296397

ShadowDimentio wrote:Oh I know, but building up a robust arsenal of botany weapons takes a decent amount of time and know-how. It's pretty fairly balanced in that regard.

To be honest, botany has a lot more weapons available than utility options. Healing chems are nice, but earthsblod/mannitol are the best, there are two explosive options but one is pretty weak, poison stacked death nettles take a lot of work and arguably are self-antagging.

You can make strange reagent purely within botany but it's rare that I have enough time to get it to medbay in a useful manner.

You can also make salbutamol which is largely useless except to lifebringers and oculine which lets you weld without a mask.

Coffee robusta gives ephedrine but who will actually use it?

Bluespace tomatoes are great for breaking into and out of things, and with capascin oil you can survive a spacewalk if you land badly, but neither of those traits are that useful for non-antagging.

Mostly I find botany is underskilled and underutilized in combating antags, though there are some clever options like holy water bees.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 20, 2017 12:26 am #296449

BeeSting12 wrote:Kudzu isnt even fun to fight against. Oh and one time I saw a guy walk onto a block of kudzu for one second and I had to drag him out with no limbs and in deep critical. Broken as fuck and takes little effort to make, needs to be removed/reworked.

flowering + aggro spreading
flowering forces you to "buckle" to it with every step instead of a random chance
aggro spreading calls ex_act() on you every buckle
so if you even step one tile in you're liable to get instaggnored and if you step two tiles in guess who's in crit?

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat May 20, 2017 12:29 am #296450

also deletion is definitely bugged to shit. Deleting it doesn't stop it from expanding so you need to SDQL/del-all it multiple times.

Lumbermancer · Sat May 20, 2017 9:24 am

InsaneHyena wrote:>Let Pete loose against kudzu
>Pete walks into it and dies instantly
Made me think.

You're supposed to drag Pete behind you like a lawnmower.

Post by **Togopal** » Sat May 20, 2017 9:45 am #296542

Lumbermancer wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:>Let Pete loose against kudzu
>Pete walks into it and dies instantly
Made me think.
You're supposed to drag Pete behind you like a lawnmower.

what kind of fucking lawnmower do you use where you have to pull it behind you to use

make pete ridable and controllable but he throws you off whenever he gets aggroed

Lumbermancer · Sat May 20, 2017 9:49 am

My lawnmower is a goat. And believe me goats are easier to pull than push.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sat May 20, 2017 1:13 pm #296581

This is a space vines
It is a oxygen eating, explosive, hardened, fireproof, toxic, thorny, aggressive, spreading, bluespace, flowering vine.

When it gets to that point, your only option is to leave and abandon ship

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat May 20, 2017 8:46 pm #296709

Lumbermancer wrote:My lawnmower is a goat. And believe me goats are easier to pull than push.

>pulling goat

>suddenly he walks out of your grip

>go to get him

>die to vines

sigh

Post by **oranges** » Sun May 21, 2017 5:03 am #296865

>be me
>kudzu loose
>order weedkiller crate
>one hit kill weed nodes
>chem grenades that will clear an entire room of kudzu
Yeah kudzu is hard guys

XDTM · Post by **XDTM** » Sun May 21, 2017 9:19 am #296881

fuck i forgot to work on my kudzu rework pr

also oranges what do you do if cargo is blocked off by kudzu

Post by **Owegno** » Sun May 21, 2017 9:28 am #296882

Not making deploying kudzu instant would be a good nerf. Its insanely annoying to chase some botanist around the station as they shit out 15 kudzu before you can stop them.

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Mon May 22, 2017 3:13 am #297125

Yeah, something like requiring you to stand still while you plant the kudzu (maybe for 10 seconds) would make it *way* more possible to stop someone who's just spamming them in the middle of the hall and able to cover the entire station in seconds.

Still, it needs more nerfs than that. Maybe a limit on how many mutation it can get so it's not EVERY kind?

Incomptinence · Mon May 22, 2017 4:43 am

Let us mutate goats to match the kudzu.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:24 am #297214

aggressively gnawing goat
it can blow anything it chews up
bluespace goat
it can phase through walls
flowering goat
it starts growing more goats
etc etc

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:25 am #297216

kevinz000 wrote:aggressively gnawing goat
it can blow anything it chews up
bluespace goat
it can phase through walls
flowering goat
it starts growing more goats
etc etc

ss13: goat simulator dlc

Remie Richards · Mon May 22, 2017 8:37 am

kevinz000 wrote: flowering forces you to "buckle" to it with every step instead of a random chance

>"every step instead of random chance"
>is literally random chance, 25% per step, non-stacking

Hmmmm.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Mon May 22, 2017 10:17 am #297233

Remie Richards wrote:
kevinz000 wrote: flowering forces you to "buckle" to it with every step instead of a random chance
>"every step instead of random chance"
>is literally random chance, 25% per step, non-stacking

Hmmmm.

i failed to notice that it was changed to 25% instead of 100% 4 months ago...

Remie Richards · Mon May 22, 2017 10:36 am

be more obvservant mekhi, the tables are watching.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 23, 2017 1:13 am #297422

While we're on the subject of botany... I'm not sure who added this, but this is not cool.

Like seriously what the heck? This is what most of the station looked like at the 25 minute mark and it first: makes everything hard to see, and second: is easy to mass produce. Which is why most of the station looked like that. Botany smoke grief grenades have to stop. (you can even see someone in the left corner griefing with another.)

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed May 24, 2017 9:47 am

It's all very well to say "muh weedkiller grenades" but once kudzu really gets going you're pissing in the wind. I carpetbombed a lowpop superkudzu outbreak with weedkiller clusterbombs and there wasstill so much in the walls it was growing back out within ten seconds (not to mention all the tiles which were weedkiller-resistant and didnt die. Plus if you're deploying the grenades by hand instead of by flying over it as a ghost you can't defend yourself from the 1-hit long ranged hitscan stuns that go through walls.

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:27 pm #298545

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:It's all very well to say "muh weedkiller grenades" but once kudzu really gets going you're pissing in the wind. I carpetbombed a lowpop superkudzu outbreak with weedkiller clusterbombs and there wasstill so much in the walls it was growing back out within ten seconds (not to mention all the tiles which were weedkiller-resistant and didnt die. Plus if you're deploying the grenades by hand instead of by flying over it as a ghost you can't defend yourself from the 1-hit long ranged hitscan stuns that go through walls.

Feel free to buff them then, what if they left a residue that prevented kudzu growing as well.

Look, I'm happy for people to further scale back kudzu's growth, but I think it would be more interesting to add some more counterplay options. or buff them.

Incomptinence · Fri May 26, 2017 9:48 pm

Oh so they can buff it to COUNTER ITS OWN COUNTERS again?

Damn kudzu design must be hard when it's already immune to everything afters a few minutes.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 26, 2017 10:42 pm #299375

kudzu on wall tiles is honestly the main problem here, goats can't get it and grenades can't get it, it's similar to gang tags but you can't remove kudzu with soap

Post by **oranges** » Sat May 27, 2017 12:28 am #299400

it shouldn't be growing on walls tbh, seems like fridge logic, honestly that would be the best nerf you could do since it would cripple it's grow rate.

Toroic · Post by **Toroic** » Tue May 30, 2017 12:08 am #300382

oranges wrote:it shouldn't be growing on walls tbh, seems like fridge logic, honestly that would be the best nerf you could do since it would cripple it's grow rate.

Kudzu currently only exists to let botanists end the round at will. It's not useful for anything (I've never seen or heard of it used to spread non-mutating useful kudzu) and immensely destructive with very little work when seeded in a few spots in maint. Nerfing it to a mild annoyance would be a step, but I really question why it needs to exist at all. Botany has a lot of antag tools already.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:09 pm #300544

to end the round at will

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:03 pm #301990

I think Kudzu should be harder to create tbh. At the minute, I'm pretty sure it just needs sugar and a bunch of weeds to make