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Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:37 am
by Steelpoint
I was going through the descriptions in a recent PR of the armour when I noticed the HoS armour is identical in defence to a standard armour sans acid/fire.
regular - melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0, fire = 50, acid = 50
HoS ----- melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0, fire = 70, acid = 90
All things aside, but isn't the HoS armour meant to be a bit better than standard armour?
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:38 am
by Remie Richards
it is.
+20 fire and +40 acid.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:38 am
by Shaps-cloud
It covers all limbs, yes it's much better
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:40 am
by Remie Richards
Oh yeah the actual non meme answer is Shaps'
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:41 am
by Steelpoint
External limb coverage is not that grand considering I find most people aim for the head or chest. I would take a strong chest vest over a mediocre full body coat, and acid and fire attacks are so rare its not worth mentioning.
I really don't think full limb coverage is a great boon to the armour. I think it should at least be a bit better defensive armour wise.
I won't propose anything since I know even increasing melee defence by five would start a 200 comment shit show.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:53 am
by Gun Hog
Maybe more energy defense so he is not so easily downed by his own weapons?
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:56 am
by Steelpoint
Anything above 20 energy defence is usually reserved for admin only events like ERT or Deathsquad, every ten points in edefence is one less second of being stunned by a ranged stun.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:02 pm
by Gun Hog
Steelpoint wrote:Anything above 20 energy defence is usually reserved for admin only events like ERT or Deathsquad, every ten points in edefence is one less second of being stunned by a ranged stun.
I am entirely aware, this is why I suggested it. This would at least help him have a little protection against his own guns.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:10 pm
by kevinz000
the correct answer is why are you getting hit?
you have stun weapons.
when you engage someone either
1. they will have a stun weapon to make your armor moot
2. they will have a bullet weapon that does a shitload of damage to make your armor effectively moot
3. there'll be enough of them to make your armor moot
4. they'll somehow not have any of the 3 and actually hit you
5. you realize your armor is still moot as it's been nerfed to crap.
and then you train yourself to not get hit.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:13 pm
by XDTM
TIL armor reduces stuns. It's percentage based, though, not necessarily 1 second per 10 armor. And physical stunning bullets have the stun reduced by bullet armor, and so on.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:19 pm
by Steelpoint
Training yourself to not get hit is easier said than done. If anyone on the station should have ok armour its the HoS, right now the Captain has better armour.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:41 pm
by Lumbermancer
Time to rework all sources of damage and make armor absorb flat number instead percentage.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:49 pm
by Steelpoint
Isn't that what goon does?
Though to be fair Goon uses a far more complex health/damage system to us
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:09 pm
by BeeSting12
i support raising the HoS armor values this is coming from an unbiased person
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:17 pm
by Shaps-cloud
But it covers all your limbs, it's already better. Whether or not people aim for your chest or head, they still have a chance to hit your limbs, which would not be protected otherwise. There is not a single person who would choose the armor vest over the greatcoat or warden jacket if given the chance
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:19 pm
by CPTANT
As long as armor gives 0 protection against stuns, I don't really care anyway.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:21 pm
by Steelpoint
Shaps-cloud wrote:But it covers all your limbs, it's already better. Whether or not people aim for your chest or head, they still have a chance to hit your limbs, which would not be protected otherwise. There is not a single person who would choose the armor vest over the greatcoat or warden jacket if given the chance
Then let's put your statement to the test. We can add two armour's that the HoS can chose from. One armour that provides mediocre protection but covers their entire body, or a armour that provides Captain level protection but only to their chest and head.
CPTANT wrote:As long as armor gives 0 protection against stuns, I don't really care anyway.
Energy defence is the only anti-stun defence sans adrenal or meth/epinephrine implants.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:51 pm
by tacolizard
Side idea: armor should convert blocked damage into stamina damage to emulate PAIN
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:53 pm
by Armhulen
tacolizard wrote:Side idea: armor should convert blocked damage into stamina damage to emulate PAIN
People without armor FEEL NO PAIN
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:59 pm
by onleavedontatme
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/18205
>buff vest values to match HoS armor
>1 year later say "hey shouldn't HoS armor be stronger than the vest"?
Steelpoint plays the long game
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:59 pm
by BeeSting12
Shaps-cloud wrote:But it covers all your limbs, it's already better. Whether or not people aim for your chest or head, they still have a chance to hit your limbs, which would not be protected otherwise. There is not a single person who would choose the armor vest over the greatcoat or warden jacket if given the chance
Armor vest has style points if you just wear pants, the vest, and sec bandana
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:59 pm
by BeeSting12
Shaps-cloud wrote:But it covers all your limbs, it's already better. Whether or not people aim for your chest or head, they still have a chance to hit your limbs, which would not be protected otherwise. There is not a single person who would choose the armor vest over the greatcoat or warden jacket if given the chance
Armor vest has style points if you just wear pants, the vest, and sec bandana
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:00 pm
by Shaps-cloud
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:02 pm
by Armhulen
This is an extremely good post.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:10 pm
by Lumbermancer
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:14 pm
by TheColdTurtle
What the fuck kor murder is illegal
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:20 pm
by danno
Oh my GOD
FUCK OFF, STEELPOINT
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:21 pm
by danno
GITBAN FUCKING STEELPOINT LOL WHAT THE FUCK
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:47 pm
by Steelpoint
You have to take that PR in context, by itself it looks suspicious.
At that time armour was at its lowest point, defensive wise. In my first armour PR I proposed buffing all station armour overall, including the HoS, to a higher value, but still far lower than their original values, but that was rejected.
In my second PR, the one linked by Kor, I instead proposed a alternative PR based on Kor's suggestion to ONLY buff the armour vest.
Despite a year passing, I still think the HoS vest should have a higher defence, it's just clear I forgot I'm responsible for matching the defensive values.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:49 pm
by CPTANT
The severity with which armour was nerfed was bullshit anyway.
In the past it was at least SOMETIMES useful to wear armour, now it is basically cosmetic.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:56 pm
by Steelpoint
I honestly think now we could look to buffing armour. The reason is due to the advent of armour piercing as a weapon concept.
The spread of armour piercing has significantly nullified many of the original arguments made in favor of nerfing armour, if we can ensure certain, high value antagonist, weapons can ignore X amount of armour, then we can look to return armour back a degree to its former self.
Just because stuns are king does not mean armour should be left by the wayside.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:00 pm
by XDTM
Steelpoint wrote:CPTANT wrote:As long as armor gives 0 protection against stuns, I don't really care anyway.
Energy defence is the only anti-stun defence sans adrenal or meth/epinephrine implants.
Energy armor protects angainst taser/ebow stuns, but bullet armor protects against physical bullet stuns/stamina damage, like detective's gun or beanbags for example.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:38 pm
by lumipharon
Despite steelpoint memes, HoS armour COULD be better - most strong weapons (ie: weapons you can use reasonably use to murder someone without stuns) all have fuckhuge damage and often good AP anyway.
Even just better melee defence so the HoS can't be slipped on soap and beaten to death before he gets up by a greyshirt with a toolbox.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:39 pm
by danno
that's a pretty large exaggeration, lum
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:45 pm
by ShadowDimentio
You don't die but it's still about 80% of your health gone.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:46 pm
by danno
don't slip on soap then
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:51 pm
by lumipharon
if you're chasing someone down a corridor they can throw soap from off screen and it's effectively impossible to dodge unless you're constantly strafing.
Also yes you can get critted by mid tier weapons before you can get up (although obviously just cuffing you is the more sensible thing to do)
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:55 pm
by danno
Foresight, my dude
If you expect combat to simply reduced to who has the higher damage/armor values, you are a buffoon!
Slipped on soap? You got out skilled. That's how it works in our current ecosystem.
Try to see it coming next time, goober.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:56 pm
by danno
I mean especially if you're suggesting that this opponent just slipped you from off-screen. That dude just styled on your chump ass.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:34 pm
by PKPenguin321
it's a steelpoint episode
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:45 pm
by Haevacht
Armhulen wrote:
This is an extremely good post.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:49 pm
by InsaneHyena
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:56 am
by Steelpoint
As I posted above, consider the context of that PR.
I did a quick test and for most stuns, someone using the HoS armour is stunned long enough that a toolbox or fire extinguisher is sufficient to crit them.
Years ago I sometimes saw a HoS get wailed on by a group of Revs using boxes and their hands only for them to get up and run away, now days a single guy with a spear or toolbox is sufficent. Yes they could just cuff the HoS and be done with it but many times that fails to occur and they chose to attack him.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:02 am
by Steelpoint
The reason why we went with the armour nerf was concern that traitor weapons, and normal weapons, were simply not doing enough damage to a armour user.
For historical perspective here is the original nerf PR and all the pre-nerf and post-nerf armour values:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/9702
I actually do think that with the advent of armour pen that we could look to returning armour to a degree back to its original state.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:25 am
by Incomptinence
Making armour as shit as is then adding amourpen to anything antaggy they could think of anyway always seemed a bit suss.
But hey functionally naked officers for cookie cutter antags what's not to savagely defend?
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:30 am
by CPTANT
XDTM wrote:Steelpoint wrote:CPTANT wrote:As long as armor gives 0 protection against stuns, I don't really care anyway.
Energy defence is the only anti-stun defence sans adrenal or meth/epinephrine implants.
Energy armor protects angainst taser/ebow stuns, but bullet armor protects against physical bullet stuns/stamina damage, like detective's gun or beanbags for example.
Yeah but no non-admin armor actually has significant amounts of energy resist....
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:42 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
Why does the captain have more armour than the HOS that's the wrong way around.
Also the HOS should be tough as nails not "stun once then toolbox to death no cuffs needed"
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:33 am
by Steelpoint
The Captains armour was never nerfed in the first place, in fact it got buffed slightly to have 40 bullet defence. Its quite a relic of the old age as it has the same defensive values as a standard old vest sans having 40 bullet defence instead of 15.
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:04 pm
by oranges
To answer your question, no
Re: Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:21 am
by Steelpoint
If I were to propose a buff (IF) I would follow my old suggestion PR.
So go from this
melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30
To this
melee = 50, bullet = 50, laser = 40
I would also consider buffing the standard vests melee to 40 (plus 10 melee jacket, do 30 on vest).
Those values would still be vulnerable to armour piercing (most AP is 30 to 40, so that brings the def values between 0 to 20). So I think that would be more fair.