Why does holy water take so long to deconvert

[CPTANT]

How long does it take to deconvert someone with holy water, 90 seconds or so?

I am not really sure for who being bucklecuffed to a bed fro 90s is supposed to be fun.

It also just makes it impossible to reverse any type of snowball the cult has, since deconverting just occupies you for ages.

I think that if you finally do catch those cultists and actually have a chaplain bless a water tank that using the holy water shouldn't be such a PITA as well.

What if we just cut the deconvert time in half or so?

[kevinz000]

oh boy, now I can deconvert people before I EVEN DRAG THEM TO THE BRIG!
no, make security more fun to play, not even less fun to play against.

[Lumbermancer]

It's so your fellow cultists can stop deconversion if they can rescue you.

[Oldman Robustin]

Its actually one of the cult mechanics I kind of prefer. It means that deconversion takes more than an iota of effort and the entire mode doesn't boil down to CONVERSION WARS.

Sec actually has to put effort into deconversion by securing prisoners and keeping watch on them instead of just turning the cargo/brig into a deconversion factory where you forcibly put something into someone elses body and seconds later they're your best friend.

Protip: Give cultists tracking implants, if they get summoned, bingo, cult base located.

Poweregametip: Strip a prisoners headset after they scream for a summoning and put a maxcap in their bag. Bingo, cult base eradicated.

[CPTANT]

Well on of the problems is that is so obnoxious to deconvert those cultists that I am regularly tempted to just shoot them in the head.

Also note that after halving the conversion time it will still be long, just not stupidly long.

[Steelpoint]

Well on of the problems is that is so obnoxious to deconvert those cultists that I am regularly tempted to just shoot them in the head.

I think that is the point. You have to chose between a time investment to deconvert someone and then loyalty implant them, or to just execute them and save on time but kill off a possible ally.

[Shaps-cloud]

Well on of the problems is that is so obnoxious to deconvert those cultists that I am regularly tempted to just shoot them in the head.

Also note that after halving the conversion time it will still be long, just not stupidly long.

The flip side is that other people will see that and likely shoot you for killing people unnecessarily, and the admins will back them up

Actually personally if I noticed someone doing this again and again I'd probably secban for acting in bad faith and throwing all semblance of RP to the wind

[kevinz000]

it's meant to be obnoxious so I can't arrest someone put holy water in them and go after the next guy and by the time I have the next guy cuffed he'll be deconverted and then I'll have a deconversion train going around the station.
basically, it's balanced fine, stop.

[TheColdTurtle]

So how does holy water deconversion work? Do I just have to inject 10u into a guy and wait?

[Steelpoint]

Isn't it about 30 to 35 units and after a minute the cultist starts spouting cult words?

[D&B]

IIRC it only works if you make them drink it.

[CPTANT]

Here is the holywater code.

Code: Select all

/datum/reagent/water/holywater/on_mob_life(mob/living/M)
	if(!data) data = 1
	data++
	M.jitteriness = min(M.jitteriness+4,10)
	if(data >= 30)		// 12 units, 54 seconds @ metabolism 0.4 units & tick rate 1.8 sec
		if(!M.stuttering)
			M.stuttering = 1
		M.stuttering = min(M.stuttering+4, 10)
		M.Dizzy(5)
		if(iscultist(M) && prob(5))
			M.say(pick("Av'te Nar'sie","Pa'lid Mors","INO INO ORA ANA","SAT ANA!","Daim'niodeis Arc'iai Le'eones","R'ge Na'sie","Diabo us Vo'iscum","Eld' Mon Nobis"))
		else if(is_servant_of_ratvar(M) && prob(8))
			switch(pick("speech", "message", "emote"))
				if("speech")
					clockwork_say(M, "...[text2ratvar(pick("Engine... your light grows dark...", "Where are you, master?", "He lies rusting in Error...", "Purge all untruths and... and... something..."))]")
				if("message")
					to_chat(M, "<span class='boldwarning'>[pick("Ratvar's illumination of your mind has begun to flicker", "He lies rusting in Reebe, derelict and forgotten. And there he shall stay", \
					"You can't save him. Nothing can save him now", "It seems that Nar-Sie will triumph after all")].</span>")
				if("emote")
					M.visible_message("<span class='warning'>[M] [pick("whimpers quietly", "shivers as though cold", "glances around in paranoia")].</span>")
	if(data >= 75)	// 30 units, 135 seconds
		if(iscultist(M) || is_servant_of_ratvar(M))
			if(iscultist(M))
				SSticker.mode.remove_cultist(M.mind, 1, 1)
			else if(is_servant_of_ratvar(M))
				remove_servant_of_ratvar(M)
			M.jitteriness = 0
			M.stuttering = 0
			holder.remove_reagent(id, volume)	// maybe this is a little too perfect and a max() cap on the statuses would be better??
			return
holder.remove_reagent(id, 0.4) //fixed consumption to prevent balancing going out of whack

I was wrong, it doesn't take 90 seconds, it takes 135......

And it takes 30u holy water to deconvert someone.

Can we please make it "only" 90 seconds or so?

[ShadowDimentio]

Well on of the problems is that is so obnoxious to deconvert those cultists that I am regularly tempted to just shoot them in the head.

Also note that after halving the conversion time it will still be long, just not stupidly long.

The flip side is that other people will see that and likely shoot you for killing people unnecessarily, and the admins will back them up

Actually personally if I noticed someone doing this again and again I'd probably secban for acting in bad faith and throwing all semblance of RP to the wind

Incorrect, if there's a totally excessive amount of captured/suspected cultists nobody cares if you just kill the confirmed ones.

Also cool dude Shaps banning people for not bending backwards to try and deconvert people when it takes forever and is a massive security risk to just leave them tied up alone in sec while they deconvert or is a manpower investment that sec rarely has an excess of.

Every sec guy sitting around while they deconvert is a sec guy not getting cultists out of the station proper, and every second spent trying to drag cultists back to sec for deconversion is time all the other cultists have to expand.

[CPTANT]

Well on of the problems is that is so obnoxious to deconvert those cultists that I am regularly tempted to just shoot them in the head.

Also note that after halving the conversion time it will still be long, just not stupidly long.

The flip side is that other people will see that and likely shoot you for killing people unnecessarily, and the admins will back them up

Actually personally if I noticed someone doing this again and again I'd probably secban for acting in bad faith and throwing all semblance of RP to the wind

Incorrect, if there's a totally excessive amount of captured/suspected cultists nobody cares if you just kill the confirmed ones.

Also cool dude Shaps banning people for not bending backwards to try and deconvert people when it takes forever and is a massive security risk to just leave them tied up alone in sec while they deconvert or is a manpower investment that sec rarely has an excess of.

Every sec guy sitting around while they deconvert is a sec guy not getting cultists out of the station proper, and every second spent trying to drag cultists back to sec for deconversion is time all the other cultists have to expand.

And it is also directly in conflict with rule 4

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.

Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

[ShadowDimentio]

Also since when is RP* enforced at banpoint?

*Be nice to the antags or get banned

[Shaps-cloud]

You are a security officer, not a deathsquaddie, if it is possible and reasonably safe to deconvert someone that you already have cuffed in the brig secured with a big tank of holy water, you are expected to not murder company assets just for funsies or because you can't wait 90 seconds. If you act in bad faith and ruin other players experiences because you're too lazy to wait two minutes, you are an active detriment to the server and may be removed. Obviously this doesn't apply to when the brig is overrun and there are active threats that make deconversion infeasible, but I guess it's maybe not so obvious when you twist and turn the rules to whatever you want

[onleavedontatme]

I kill cultists even when deconversion is available because I am taking my dislike of the mode out on them.

It's also a long and finicky process to do so even more incentive to skip it.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Company assets
>Converts of a mad blood god trying to destroy the universe

Pick one.

Also that's literally covered under rule 4, sec can do what they want with antags, period. So too bad Shaps, you're in the wrong.

[CPTANT]

You are a security officer, not a deathsquaddie, if it is possible and reasonably safe to deconvert someone that you already have cuffed in the brig secured with a big tank of holy water, you are expected to not murder company assets just for funsies or because you can't wait 90 seconds. If you act in bad faith and ruin other players experiences because you're too lazy to wait two minutes, you are an active detriment to the server and may be removed. Obviously this doesn't apply to when the brig is overrun and there are active threats that make deconversion infeasible, but I guess it's maybe not so obvious when you twist and turn the rules to whatever you want

its not 90 seconds, its 135

Once again it is proven that the timer is too long.

..when you twist and turn the rules to whatever you want

"Killing antags is now considered ruining their round"
"Rule literally states something is allowed but doing it is considered rule lawyering"

kek.

[Wyzack]

This just in, cult still fucking sucks

[Armhulen]

at least the end bit is fun.

[ShadowDimentio]

I fucking love cult but deconversion is a waste of time and effort for all involved.

[Lumbermancer]

Shaps is right, though.

[ShadowDimentio]

The rules beg to differ

[Lumbermancer]

Don't be a dick.

[ShadowDimentio]

Killing antags isn't being a dick.

[kevinz000]

Gee, we have deconversion methods to use by security and you would refuse to use it even if you have it readily available and you have readily the time and means to do so.
And all you gain is one more player out of the round, hating you!
And you wonder why you're not liked.

[Lumbermancer]

Removing someone from the game during conversion mode because of a minor inconvenience is being a dick.

[CPTANT]

Removing someone from the game during conversion mode because of a minor inconvenience is being a dick.

"135 seconds of babysitting while the cult snowballs is a minor inconvenience"

[Lumbermancer]

Babysitting is the job for Warden and Chaplain.

[ShadowDimentio]

Gee, we have deconversion methods to use by security and you would refuse to use it even if you have it readily available and you have readily the time and means to do so.
And all you gain is one more player out of the round, hating you!
And you wonder why you're not liked.

You shouldn't assume what I think about things, it makes you look like a moron Kevin.

I deconvert people all the time-- outside of cult. The ONLY reason I don't do it in cult is because it takes too long and I don't have the time or manpower to invest in it.

And frankly I couldn't give a shit how assblasted someone is that I dunked them fair and square, Kevin, and neither should you. This isn't a popularity contest.

[ShadowDimentio]

Removing someone from the game during conversion mode because of a minor inconvenience is being a dick.

Wrong.

I'm not obligated to deconvert someone EVER, ESPECIALLY not if doing so takes a significant amount of time and effort that could be far better spent dunking more cultists.

[Lumbermancer]

I don't think anyone talks about situations when you don't have manpower to spare. In fact, from my experience, I have to yell at security to get the fuck out of the brig and fight cult, because they tend to run around like headless chickens, while Chaplain armed with baton and taser is fine by himself feeding water.

I'm not obligated to deconvert

Using the word "obligated" makes you look like a dick.

[ShadowDimentio]

I don't think anyone talks about situations when you don't have manpower to spare. In fact, from my experience, I have to yell at security to get the fuck out of the brig and fight cult, because they tend to run around like headless chickens, while Chaplain armed with baton and taser is fine by himself feeding water.

I'm not obligated to deconvert

Using the word "obligated" makes you look like a dick.

Yeah, there are times where sec sit around like a bunch of morons, and in those cases I certainly wouldn't trust them to babysit five cultists as they deconvert lest someone escape, disarm a taser and free everyone right in the middle of sec. But far more often are occasions where sec only has one or two dudes who physically do not have the time to waste on deconversion.

Also you're making the argument that if I don't deconvert everyone I'm breaking rule 10, we're talking about sec obligations to people they've dunked so of course I'd use the word you clown.

[Lumbermancer]

Also you're making the argument that if I don't deconvert everyone I'm breaking rule 10

No, rule 1.

[ShadowDimentio]

Correction rule 1. Rule 10 applies here though, if you get dunked suck it up sec doesn't owe you a deconversion.

[Lumbermancer]

Yes, but...you know, you could just deconvert. Instead you choose to engage with the game mode at the most superficial pvp level.

[CPTANT]

Yes, but...you know, you could just deconvert. Instead you choose to engage with the game mode at the most superficial pvp level.

What if deconverting wasn't just, you know.....completely obnoxious?

Because what I am suggesting is just reducing the holy water time from 135 seconds to 90 seconds.

[ShadowDimentio]

Yes, but...you know, you could just deconvert. Instead you choose to engage with the game mode at the most superficial pvp level.

I could, but I'm not obligated to. I mean it's not like there are any shortage of good reasons to deconvert people without adding "Shaps will fucking ban you if you don't", including gaining new and potentially robust friends.

[Lumbermancer]

What if deconverting wasn't just, you know.....completely obnoxious?

Do you play Warden?

[ShadowDimentio]

Sometimes, and it doesn't make it any less annoying.

[Lumbermancer]

I don't think it makes it more annoying either.

[ShadowDimentio]

True, but it's still annoying to do and generally easier to just shoot them unless you really need the extra hands and have the chappy helping.

[Oldman Robustin]

I'll drop the time modestly when I do my first pass of cult nerfs but its not meant to be easy or convenient.

Again, if you're worried about them escaping, put in a tracking implant. Letting one stripped cultist escape is almost always worth a guaranteed location on their base. Most cultists won't even realize its a tracker and just assume it was a loyalty implant.

[kevinz000]

>135 seconds is too much for you to handle as security
Huh.

[ShadowDimentio]

For each and every convert, yes.

[MMMiracles]

It's not like you're doing it one at a time for every convert, you're only limited by how fast you can make them chug and how many seats you got to buckle cuff them

If you're that impatient then maybe you shouldn't play security?

[ShadowDimentio]

>Not limited to one at a time

You are though, you can only drag one boy to sec at a time and rarely are more than one caught at once. So your boy guarding the converts gets to be there the whole time.

[Doctor Pork]

Oh boy it's a ShadyDamemeto thread.

Sign me up!

Also I've seen competent sec and chaplains crush cults entirely via the deconvert train. It's done way more often than people think. And frankly it is a better way to handle it in the long run since dank murder just populates either cult's ghost roles (fucking you over doubly hard on clockcult).

[kevinz000]

am i going to get my post deleted if i once again tell shadow to go acquire some proficiency ?