Iron hawk marine, a bridge too far

FantasticFwoosh · Tue May 30, 2017 9:17 pm

A migrant ghost role i've seen completely destablise a round more than once (onetime when they roleplayed a diplomat bodyguard, subverted the ai & beat a officer to near death before throwing in the permabrig and another when they joined a rev round, asked to be implanted after respawning from a dead miner.), people don't even know if its ERT or not and ghosts are abusing metaknowledge to come onto the station with the marine's ID.

- Basically become a free ert member because you are salty. On top of that some forced lore about this additional earth faction Remie was shouting at steelpoint about, that steelpoint might use to smuggle more high grade military stuff into the game.

Come on is this not complete cancer during a rev round? And what if they lose their suit/weapons? I've already seen many people just walk off with it, all it'd take is to slip them, cuff & strip.

Really now this is disgusting, and i don't think steelpoint has any actual skill in playing the combat aspect of the game that they apparently champion because they felt it was nessecary to give the iron hawk marine a full suit of armor, a helmet, AND a rifle (but FF, it only has 32 bullets!) thats true but why do you want that when there is literally a hermit ghost role that has a pocket knife, a toolbox and a pickaxe for a selection of weapons beyond what they can craft out of dead monsters?

Personally if you gave me nothing but a glowstick, internals and a spoon, im going to shove it so far up that goliaths ass until they are dead with my pro-dodging and weaving skills that id be able to kill it with my bare hands, and indeed the ruin plays way too safe. Not everyone is me, and there are many better players than me in that department but ashwalkers manage just fine with spears.

- Its the butt of every joke against steelpoint right now for being a military fantasist of the N'th degree that pales WJohnston's xeno fanboyism.

@Steelpoint: "The marine is not a antagonist, they should not be shooting other players outside of self defence." (All ghost roles are neutral officially steelpoint outside of admin enforcible ones/clear as day antag)

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -304184146
@Optimumtact: "Did steelpoint just add a role for himself?"

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -304123845
@Steelpoint: "I won't completely remove my lore since I would find that unfair for me, considering the standard for lavaland lore is "whatever the hell you want".

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -304503728

Yes they did nerf the armor and change the lore, but only after maintainers twisted their arm about it and closed (then reopened) it as to something that was already OP and made to be OP for OP's sake by pointing the finger at lavaland and saying "ITS ALL YOUR FAULT, THIS IS WHY I MUST HAVE DISPROPORTIONATELY STRONG GEAR".

Meanwhile im sitting here with a loincloth and a small sharp stick wondering what all the rampant screaming is about.

Hatfish · Post by **Hatfish** » Tue May 30, 2017 9:40 pm #301156

I've probably said it five or six times by now but I don't think the marine ruin is any better than the prisoner ruin, because the goals of the marine (which is to migrate to the station) will inevitably cause conflict with the miners when they have to shoot the windows out of the outpost to get to the station. This will lead to the (rightfully upset) miners calling security on the marine, which will start a firefight with security, which will eventually just give the marine the excuse to start murdering everyone on the station in self-defense.
Regardless of whether marines are explicitly antags when they spawn in, they are incredibly likely to create a conflict between themselves and the station just by attempting to accomplish their goal.

Post by **oranges** » Tue May 30, 2017 9:42 pm #301158

it should not have been merged imo

FantasticFwoosh · Tue May 30, 2017 9:43 pm

Sorry if i was particularly shouty, most of this was venting, i tried to tone it down in the resulting edits after.

Hatfish is more correct than i am pretty much.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed May 31, 2017 1:55 am #301256

Unfortunately it seems I've missed the rounds where the marine becomes a shitter, the few rounds I've seen Marines is either they run around lavaland helping other lavaland roles or they become a security contractor.

Their armour values are:
melee = 50, laser = 20, bullet = 20.
The armour def values sans melee were kept low intentionally. Since miner suits can reach 60 melee defence I thought that the armour values were fine, this coupled with the suit slowdown movement made me content with the armour. If the armour is really a major issue I can further nerf its defence down and claim its lost most of its armour plating in the crash. Honestly though, one taser round is sufficient to stun the marine.

In terms of base access, I could give the marine basic mining access to stop incidents of the marine shooting down the windows, I think this would solve most of the issues right off the bat.

For the gun. I did limit is in comparison to most other guns. While it does have a larger ammo supply, however its constrained in that you can't buy more magazines for it, and it has a limited fire range of five tiles, not fifty unlike most ranged weapons. If the weapon is still too powerful I can nerf it, such as reducing its mag supply or further limiting the fire range to four tiles. Worst case I could replace it with a Pistol.

E: I always intended to further balance the role after the fact, you can't really balance a role by yourself in this game.

Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:21 am

this is my original character, the iron hawk marine. his favorite things are guns, death, murder, and huntin antags. he always has his super duper armor and his 30 shot gun. in united earth government (FUCK u REMIE UEG is LORE!!!!) marine training class he accelled above his class mates. he is not like the other marines... he survived lone by himself in the crash that killed all his comrades... and now he wants REVENGE!!!

Lumbermancer · Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:45 am

Steelpoint wrote:imperfect person playing an imperfect game

When did this become a trump argument get out of jail free card?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:34 am #302596

I didn't write that?

Must have been some forum autocorrect.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:07 am #302597

If the Marine is unpopular in its current form, and this persists for a week, I've got a few ideas on how to better balance the role out.

Remie Richards · Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:15 am

Steelpoint wrote:I didn't write that?

Must have been some forum autocorrect.

it's S H I T T E R.

InsaneHyena · Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:18 am

Revert this shit as soon as possible.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:52 pm #302630

I want to give it some time before I do anything.

My plan is, if the role is seen as too much, to scale back some of the marines equipment. Such as only issuing a single knife and, maybe, a pistol with one magazine, removing the medkit, etc, etc.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:59 pm

I encountered this assblaster during a clock cult round. I was in the fucking engine and this piece of shit runs in and starts blasting my constructs.

Fortunately I had a riot shotgun and rushed him in maint, the most annoying fucking part was he had the fucking DEATHSQUAD STIMS REEEEEEEEEE, so we had to crit him like 5 times to keep him down. A fucking borg literally used all the fuel in his welder to keep this fucker in crit and he was still getting up, finally I just cuffed him because he kept breaking conversion attempts despite me starting them while he was crit.

TL;DR Not sure how this is going to enhance anyone's round when Deathsquad Jr. shows up and starts killing shit. At the very least REMOVE THE DEATHSQUAD STIMS JESUS CHRIST THEY ARE NOT MEANT FOR MORTAL HANDS.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:04 pm #302636

Didn't realise the Syndi Combat Medkit uses the Deathsquad chems. I'll put up a change to just give him a burn and brute medkit.

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:00 pm

Unironically adds death squad member for self, tries to force lore, gives the marine ID access, a rifle with 32 bullets, forced to nerf the armor after complaints, comes with death squad chemicals that are as strong as described.

Complains against people telling them its a bad idea because "its unfair on me because everyone else does it and its cool". No. Most of those features are sensical or on the pathway to being removed. You can't cry and fix something that shouldn't have been present in the first place.

> Dont make a conflict role for a non-conflict purpose, why are we bothering to nerf this feature into the ground when its execution & purpose for existing is literally horrible and poor recieved.

Steelpoint wrote:Their armour values are:
melee = 50, laser = 20, bullet = 20.
The armour def values sans melee were kept low intentionally. Since miner suits can reach 60 melee defence I thought that the armour values were fine, this coupled with the suit slowdown movement made me content with the armour. I Honestly though, one taser round is sufficient to stun the marine.

I need to check what chems are in the deathsquad medkit and whether there are anything that could suppress a taser shot before i comment with that point, but again this terrible "COMPARISON" justifcation for putting in literally powercrept hermits for yourself. You dont understand just because the miners armor CAN reach 60 doesn't mean that its a acceptable standard, its more a case of you're have to grind through multiple mobs to collect 6 hide pieces just to reinforce your suit, the Marine suit is literally explorer suit but buffed at the start.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:09 pm #302675

this is so painfully stupid
why the fuck did kor merge this

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:35 pm #302689

i-i enjoy it because i can roleplay sarge dornan from camp navarro

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:50 pm #302700

I put up a PR to remove the Combat Medkit and replace it with a standard First Aid Kit.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:00 pm #302705

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:06 pm #302710

Should of just been left as a Doom reference instead of this weird ham-fisted lore marine thing.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:09 pm #302712

To be honest I picked it due to the fact you can use patches through the armour, except I did not realise the combat injector was the same one the Deathsquad use.

A straight Doom reference needs more work and honestly me switching it to a Doom reference would've been just as ham-fisted.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:11 pm #302714

Steelpoint I use those nightvision medhuds you put that back right now

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:14 pm #302717

I'll make a sub-type of the combat medkit that just removes the unnecessary fluff items.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:46 pm #302731

>Doom reference would be hamfisted
>So I made it into a tacticool marine, so I could force more ballistic bullhsit into the game
>Also, I (((accidentally))) made my snowflake personal job overpowered as fuck
Every time I think I couldn't hate your PRs more, you prove me wrong

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:53 pm #302735

More so a proper Doom reference needs a lot more work than I am able to do code wise.

A proper Doom reference should do the following.

Spawn the user perma stuck in their Armour on the other side of a portal.
Give them special objectives to "RIP AND TEAR" lavaland monsters
Reward Doom Marine with ability to make mediocre firearms from killing lavaland monsters and make ammo for that.
Code restrict Doom Marine to stay on Lavaland to kill demons forever.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:58 pm #302737

This sounds like a great idea, how about we do that instead of your snowflake bullshit that exists purely to go on station and either validhunt, or be prisoner 2.0?

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:03 pm

> Guncrafting a coconut grenade launcher out of sinew, bones & a rock = Memo has not been gotten that marine guns are likely not a good idea and that steelpoint literally does not like melee combat so wants their personal ghost role to have a safe ranged option.

Just literally hang on for the moment for lava dwarf crossbows or go all Crysis and give the marine a composite bow, and a way to craft arrows out of monster parts, no guns please.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:28 pm #302744

I'm disgusted in Steelpoint but at the same time, it's completely the fault of our maintainers that this fucking somehow slipped through despite clearly being jerk off garbage.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:25 pm

We have plenty of bad lavaland memes, your mistake was allowing it to get involved in so many rounds and giving it a clear origin. If you had given him a more generic loadout people wouldn't even realize they needed to bitch at you.

*Glares at the fucking morph syringe*

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:41 pm #302783

eh, i don't like people on ghostroles having default access to a goddamn assault rifle, but I didn't care because it was one guy.
Until I heard about them getting admin healing chems...

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:38 pm #302802

FantasticFwoosh wrote: and that steelpoint literally does not like melee combat so wants their personal ghost role to have a safe ranged option., no guns please.

Melee is shit on lavaland because the mobs never give you an indication when they're going to strike. Killing monsters with melee comes down to just luck and tanking hits.

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:27 pm

They do actually, they just move into your attack range. The goliath's eyes light up when its reconsidering its targets.

Not rocket science, but do expect to get bruised.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:12 am #302846

FantasticFwoosh wrote:They do actually, they just move into your attack range. The goliath's eyes light up when its reconsidering its targets.

Not rocket science, but do expect to get bruised.

Isn't the red eyes a indicator of tendrils?

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:27 am #302848

It should of been a doom reference from the start.

Should I go further with this and spruce it up as a replacement or is spess mehreen dead after this.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:15 am #302857

My plan for a new PR is to spawn the Marine with a Survival Knife, maybe spawn one weak gun with no extra magazines, such as a Auto Rifle or something akin.

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:01 am

NO _ GUN.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:11 am #302953

I'm juggling two ideas, one related to this PR.

My idea is making the spawn randomise your role. So you have four or three separate roles, such as a Marine, Technician, Pilot, etc, etc. Each with their own unique equipment.

I would remove the Marines gun, I would give him a slightly buffed survival knife and let him keep the armour. Technician would have access to CE level engineering tools. Pilot would have night vision goggles. I dunno its a work in progress.

My other idea is a new ruin involving plasmamen, metal and plasma.

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:14 am

Im sorry but im literally slamming my head into my desk screaming internally, please stop. Its not that i don't want you to have nice things, its that you always approach everything from the same angle, a team of marines with all the previous gear spread out is substantially worse than 1 with all the gear on them. For all the same contrived reasons nothing will have changed at all and you're still trying to bypass criticism via loopholing around it.

Go with the second idea please.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:15 am #302957

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Im sorry but im literally slamming my head into my desk screaming internally, please stop. Its not that i don't want you to have nice things, its that you always approach everything from the same angle, a team of marines with all the previous gear spread out is substantially worse than 1 with all the gear on them.

Go with the second idea please.

I want to propose both ideas.

I don't see how spawning one uniquely spirited person, with survival knives and some non-gun related gear, is bad. I think its a worthy idea.

It won't be just giving the previous gear to them, their gear selection will be more watered down and unique to each role.

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:19 am

CE level tools, night vision and whoops, your finger slipped and you also gave them all the previous marine perks. Gee it'd be funny if the two other guys suddenly died and it all ended up on this iron hawk marine hmmm?

Literally giving yourself 3 lives for your personal ghost role now.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:28 am #302959

I said in my post that it would be a random role.

Meaning when you click the spawner to spawn in, you get assigned one role at random.

There is still only one survivor role overall.....

FantasticFwoosh · Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:03 am

My mistake then but additional CE tools are restricted for a reason & nightvision is dumb, this is still overpowered gear.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:04 am #302963

NV is not that bad ala RnD printing it out in short order if they want.

Either way the actual items are not set in stone so feel free to suggest something themed to a role.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:40 am #303316

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/28041

It's done.