9000 guns and not a drop to drink

[Dr_bee]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Armour Piercing ties to armour, as such you'll never get anything passed in terms of that.

Armour is where people go to die.

never understood that. why would you make armor useless? if someone is using the equipment slot make it effective. that way you can actually design meaningful choices around the slot. right now armor is basically a glorified gun holder.

The fact that a exosuit webbing PR got closed because it would always be taken over armor is less about storage creep and more about how absolutely shit armor is right now.

I would rather it be overpowered than useless, that way it would be desired by everyone, and you would have to consider the opportunity cost of not wearing it Vs. wearing other things like a spacesuit or biosuit.

[Steelpoint]

Someone proposed buffing armour but making it inflict a slight slow down, that was closed as well.

No one knows what to do with armour so we just keep closing anyone who changes it.

I personally think armour should be reverted to its old values considering the mass proliferation of armour piercing, but I'm sure many disagree.

[Dr_bee]

Someone proposed buffing armour but making it inflict a slight slow down, that was closed as well.

No one knows what to do with armour so we just keep closing anyone who changes it.

I personally think armour should be reverted to its old values considering the mass proliferation of armour piercing, but I'm sure many disagree.

I dont know why making people harder to kill is a controversial proposal, when you instantly down someone you cant roleplay or gameplay around it. it is BORING. and that is a fucking cardinal sin in game design. right now we basically have buffed antags and gunplay so much that people dont want to play when they dont roll antag.

I know you often get accused of being overtly pro-security steelpoint, but coders often forget that other people can use security equipment too, and there is more than one way to get it, and currently the balance is very skewed towards antagonists given they have the ability to kill you or crit you without you being able to have time to so much as scream.

if you dont want to change armor, just let people talk and see in crit. you can still cant move, and you are still dying, but you can at least scream bloody murder over the radio.

plus hearing the screams of the injured and dying after some disaster like a bombing or nuke op invasion over the radio would be badass as hell.

[Incomptinence]

Make armour strong but degrade when it absorbs damage just like in real life it's all ablative baby.
We already have a gear degradation system just give it thresholds for changed armour values instead of just total destruction.
Then you can have mechanics to repair it or in the case of more common pieces like sec grunt armour replace.
Make armour repair an interaction with one of the other departments other than cargo (which orders more) even that sounds nice for rev strats.
To prevent people having a backpack of sec vests instead of a backpack of armoury make it bulky so if it is scragged you need to actually go somewhere.

Then antag weapons can be split between armour pen for dedicated shit like big ticket guns and extra armour damaging for those swords and shit you can use infinitely.
Maybe not every antag weapon should "teleprots inside u" just saying.

[Steelpoint]

I'm pretty sure armour degradation, and loss of armour defence from that, is a feature Goonstation uses.

An example being on their station, special traitor armour piercing bullets don't necessarily deal more damage, they just destroy most armour extremely quickly.

[ShadowDimentio]

Goon doesn't have armor degradation, but armor there is much better at stopping bullets. The AP rounds for example are specifically designed to fuck up sec wearing armor but do jack shit to other targets.

[Dr_bee]

Goon doesn't have armor degradation, but armor there is much better at stopping bullets. The AP rounds for example are specifically designed to fuck up sec wearing armor but do jack shit to other targets.

/tg/ code's AP ammo is supposed to be similar, but armor is so useless and the regular ammo pens enough for no one to ever buy the ammo.

make armor actually matter so you actually have to play around it instead of ignoring it.

[Grazyn]

This rifle wrecks blob so much it's not even funny. At least x-rays didn't have a scope and had to be recharged. With the rifle you just stand still, aim at the core and click it until round ends.

[Remie Richards]

Armour was probably over-nerfed.
Armour Penetration and capping armour at 90% immunity were done because literally every round melee-invulnerable (100%+ melee armour) Miners would come on the station and wreck people.

Armour pen was originally rare, and I never intended it to be spread about, and now it seems like every gun has 4 different variant ammos, one of which being an AP ammo.

tl;dr Armour pen needs to be reduced across the board/removed from most items + armour needs upping a little bit (I'm talking +5, +10 at most)
Let's not go back to invincible miners, but armour just atleast do -something-

[Steelpoint]

The question is what would be a good middle ground buff for armour, and what would be a good way to start turning down Armour Pen on some items.

I'll go through the list of weapons in game and see what has what in terms of armour penetration.

Armour should be easier to discuss.

[Steelpoint]

List was easy.

Generally for ranged weapons only ballistics have access to armour pen. However armour pen is generally only available for weapons that have armour piercing as a ammo type.

The Sketchin, SAW and Auto Rifle have AP mags on offer. The Revolver has inherent AP built in. Energy Swords have inherent AP built in. All AP is set to around 40 AP, so it ignores 40 bullet defence. Energy swords ignore melee defence though.

C20r and Bulldog generally don't matter, C20r has inbuilt stun damage and Bulldog is a shotgun that can kill you in two to three hits.

--

Armour is easier, almost all station armour sticks with the baseline armour vest.

melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30, energy = 10

Captain has more.

melee = 50, bullet = 40, laser = 50, energy = 10

Antagonists generally have near Captain level defence.

--

AP generally means all armour sans Bullet Proof Armour provides some protection, even then Bulletproof armor only provides twenty (20) bullet defence after AP is accounted for. So essentially you can remove bullet defence from armour and there would be no noticeable difference.

[kevinz000]

>MFW Kevinz spergs out because my engineering reward system would let engineers get advanced magboots because THATS TOO OP!!!

>MFW Kevinz then proceeds to add more superweapons to fucking RND

[Dr_bee]

Removal of AP across the board with the exception of specialty ammo types would be a good start. I dont know why e-swords have so much AP, considering they have a high dismember chance along with a whopping 30 damage they seem a tad too powerful, was the AP added before dismembering was a thing?

One thing that probably should not be touched however is the stats on operative weaponry. a group of 3-6 people need all the help they can get combat wise. Plus having armor pen on their weapons makes some sense as they are elite military operatives and not some schmuck the syndicate bribed to steal some things.

Why reduce AP to zero? so it can get playtested and then tweaked. it is easier to start with a clean slate and move up from there. It will suck for a few weeks but it would be SO MUCH easier to balance.

[Steelpoint]

AP was added to esword well before dismemberment was added.

[Oldman Robustin]

engineering rewards was literally the same shit
make the job interesting and satisfying instead of simply incentivizing boring garbage gameplay with out-of-place loot and calling it a solution

If you're going to compare RND superweapons with a dance machine or a mobile repair vehicle as "the same shit" then there's no helping you.

It's this dumpster-tier logic I can't stand. We have no jobs that are inherently interesting. Not a single fucking one. Yet we convinced people to do most of the station jobs by rewarding them. Yet when I try to put engineering on the same playing field I get people like you going WOOOOAAAAHHH you can't INCENTIVIZE people with REWARDS just because that's literally how modern civilization was created! Start over!

Also I wasn't even relying on the same "garbage gameplay". I gave atmos a market to fill custom canister order, optimizing supermatter output is no simple task, and responding quickly to power and air alarms is at the core of what our engineers are supposed to be. Engineering already has systems that are better than the "garbage gameplay" we've given every other department *Click* Gee I hope RNG gives me Hulk this time! *Click* Gee I hope RNG gives me a gold slime this time! *Click* Gee I hope this chest has a holoparasite in it! Yet nobody explores the engineering/atmos mechanics because, SHOCKER, there isn't an incentive to.

Overall I rate your shitpost, 2/10. Apply yourself.

[captain sawrge]

>every other department is a shitty grind for bad rewards so my proposal was good too

It's this dumpster-tier logic I can't stand.

[captain sawrge]

Yes, Robustin. They're all bad. They're all terrible because no one wants to think in terms of the job itself, they all just want to know what shiny thing they can stick at the end of it to justify the monotonous and tedious gameplay. That's the entire point of this thread.

[Qbopper]

It's this dumpster-tier logic I can't stand. We have no jobs that are inherently interesting. Not a single fucking one. Yet we convinced people to do most of the station jobs by rewarding them. Yet when I try to put engineering on the same playing field I get people like you going WOOOOAAAAHHH you can't INCENTIVIZE people with REWARDS just because that's literally how modern civilization was created! Start over!.

okay well

It's this dumpster-tier logic I can't stand.

because I don't see why you would do this - if you recognize the problem of jobs being uninteresting, using the same shitty system that we see elsewhere in order to bring it to the "level" of other jobs is just "dumpster tier logic". it's a bandaid solution that doesn't address the underlying issue

I don't want to turn this into yet another argument with robustin over his points system but I really don't understand how you're missing sawrge's point

ontopic: I think making AP rounds relevant would be a neat change, maybe it would make people with ranged weapons have to think more carefully about what they're doing

[ShadowDimentio]

What you fail to realize is that that's true for literally every job in the game. Every single job is a monotonous grind until you get to the end and get freed from your duties and get to go do what you want, possibly with the addition of sweet loot to beat people up with.

R&D isn't unique at all in that regard.

[captain sawrge]

What you fail to realize is that that's true for literally every job in the game. Every single job is a monotonous grind until you get to the end and get freed from your duties and get to go do what you want, possibly with the addition of sweet loot to beat people up with.

R&D isn't unique at all in that regard.

They're all bad. They're all terrible

[Lazengann]

Shaft mining is fun sometimes

[Armhulen]

Wrong!

[Segmented]

The Sketchin,

Why does this even have AP rounds? I thought it was supposed to be a portable gun that could help kill/crit unarmored foes but be useless against armored ones.

[captain sawrge]

The other point of this thread was that gun balance is itself a joke because the game isn't about fucking 30 gun's with different numerical values
weapons are just a means to telling cool stories we don't need ten different pistols with slightly different stats holy fuck

[kevinz000]

Engineering points are just bad as rnd.
The difference is I don't play engineering even though I can cheese your points easily.

[Togopal]

On the topic of armor being nerfed to shit, as soon as its buffed again (theoretically) people are gonna start complaining about stun combat again and how tasers can counter syndi weapons due to the stun and done system, calling it now

Either that or theyll just use epig ebow esword combo to permastun 3+ people and steamroll regardless of armor status

[captain sawrge]

On the topic of armor being nerfed to shit, as soon as its buffed again (theoretically) people are gonna start complaining about stun combat again and how tasers can counter syndi weapons due to the stun and done system, calling it now

Either that or theyll just use epig ebow esword combo to permastun 3+ people and steamroll regardless of armor status

This is off topic. Make a new thread.

[captain sawrge]

Engineering points are just bad as rnd.
The difference is I don't play engineering even though I can cheese your points easily.

This is off topic. Make a new thread.

[captain sawrge]

The Sketchin,

Why does this even have AP rounds? I thought it was supposed to be a portable gun that could help kill/crit unarmored foes but be useless against armored ones.

This is off topic. Make a new thread.

[captain sawrge]

Removal of AP across the board with the exception of specialty ammo types would be a good start. I dont know why e-swords have so much AP, considering they have a high dismember chance along with a whopping 30 damage they seem a tad too powerful, was the AP added before dismembering was a thing?

One thing that probably should not be touched however is the stats on operative weaponry. a group of 3-6 people need all the help they can get combat wise. Plus having armor pen on their weapons makes some sense as they are elite military operatives and not some schmuck the syndicate bribed to steal some things.

Why reduce AP to zero? so it can get playtested and then tweaked. it is easier to start with a clean slate and move up from there. It will suck for a few weeks but it would be SO MUCH easier to balance.

This is off topic. Make a new thread.

[Togopal]

On the topic of armor being nerfed to shit, as soon as its buffed again (theoretically) people are gonna start complaining about stun combat again and how tasers can counter syndi weapons due to the stun and done system, calling it now

Either that or theyll just use epig ebow esword combo to permastun 3+ people and steamroll regardless of armor status

This is off topic. Make a new thread.

Oh ok sorry I didn't know

[Aloraydrel]

Shaft miner is the only good job left tbh

[Super Aggro Crag]

If you guys hate this game so much then pool your money and send it to me becsuse i actually enjoy playing it

Janitor is the best job

[Anonmare]

If you guys hate this game so much then pool your money and send it to me becsuse i actually enjoy playing it

Janitor is the best job

I must now complain about janitorcreep

[Supermichael777]

I feel the primary problem with rnd is the lack of any significant danger in the tools your using other then the meme BoH ban-me button and the now nerfed nuclear-laser radiation. Your bag of holding doesn't have a 1:100 chance of shuffling the inventory of every bag of holding when you put something in or any other unique mechanic other then its a slowdown free super-dufflebag.

[XDTM]

I feel the primary problem with rnd is the lack of any significant danger in the tools your using other then the meme BoH ban-me button and the now nerfed nuclear-laser radiation. Your bag of holding doesn't have a 1:100 chance of shuffling the inventory of every bag of holding when you put something in or any other unique mechanic other then its a slowdown free super-dufflebag.

Rare chance of fucking you up just because is not fun for anybody. I can understand downsides, which you do see with implants, for example, due to their EMP vulnerability. But usually the cost/time investment put into making items offsets their benefits so they don't need special downsides.

Also, BoHs do have a downside: any teleportation is wildly scrambled, so using teleporters, hand-teles, qpads, and the portal gun (which you get with the same requirements as a BoH) usually flings you to space or into danger.

[Anonmare]

I still think EMPs ought to make your BoH drop everything on the tile beneath you